carepov Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 https://munkdebates.com/debates/munk-debate-on-anti-zionism/ Zionism today is the support for continued existence of Israel. Anti-Zionists therefore support the dismantling of Israel. Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews. Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Non-sequitur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 What do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 33 minutes ago, carepov said: What do you mean? It does not follow. If Israel didn't exist we all would start killing Jews ? "Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews." It doesn't follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Of course it follows. A cursory look at the history of Arab-Israeli conflicts, and the stated aims of groups like Hamas, proves that without an Israeli state there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 17 minutes ago, carepov said: Of course it follows. A cursory look at the history of Arab-Israeli conflicts, and the stated aims of groups like Hamas, proves that without an Israeli state there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews. Expulsion from Israel you mean ?  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Yes, without the state of Israel, there would be mass killing and expulsions of Jews from the land of Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 2 minutes ago, carepov said: Yes, without the state of Israel, there would be mass killing and expulsions of Jews from the land of Israel. Well that seems to follow. If they expelled Israelis peaceably would anti-Zionism still mean anti-Semitism ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Well that seems to follow. If they expelled Israelis peaceably would anti-Zionism still mean anti-Semitism ? You have a strange sense of humour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 Just now, carepov said: You have a strange sense of humour. It's a thought experiment. I guess you don't want to go there.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 I am all for rational though experiments, but is there such a thing as "peaceable expulsion"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 38 minutes ago, carepov said: I am all for rational though experiments, but is there such a thing as "peaceable expulsion"? Maybe announcing that you have two hours to get out like they did in Gaza.. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Exactly, that's war. So, do you agree that anti-zionism is also anti-Semitism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted Wednesday at 02:53 AM Report Share Posted Wednesday at 02:53 AM On 6/21/2024 at 5:50 PM, carepov said: Exactly, that's war. So, do you agree that anti-zionism is also anti-Semitism? Arabic is a Semitic language just as Hebrew is. Since you acknowledge that Israel is engaging mass-killing and expulsion of Arabs, is the state of Israel therefore anti-Semitic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Wednesday at 03:26 AM Author Report Share Posted Wednesday at 03:26 AM 1.From wiki: Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism)[a] is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews. 2. Israel is not engaging in mass expulsion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted Wednesday at 05:24 PM Report Share Posted Wednesday at 05:24 PM On 6/21/2024 at 1:08 PM, carepov said: https://munkdebates.com/debates/munk-debate-on-anti-zionism/ Zionism today is the support for continued existence of Israel. Anti-Zionists therefore support the dismantling of Israel. Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews. Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism That is not what Zionism is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Thursday at 12:48 AM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 12:48 AM 7 hours ago, Black Dog said: That is not what Zionism is. Would you agree with wiki? Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state, in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority.[13][14][1][15][16] It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.[17] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted Thursday at 02:45 AM Report Share Posted Thursday at 02:45 AM 23 hours ago, carepov said: Antisemitism... is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews. It is definitely that, but not necessarily exclusively. You're using the word "semitic," which by definition undeniably includes Arabs. Zionism is the modern Jewish nationalism movement culminating in the nation state of Israel formed in 1948. So is your claim therefore that any opposition to the political legitimacy of the state of Israel is inhetently based upon anti-Jewish pejudice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Thursday at 03:06 AM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 03:06 AM 6 minutes ago, Matthew said: So is your claim therefore that any opposition to the political legitimacy of the state of Israel is inhetently based upon anti-Jewish pejudice? More or less, Yes. Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice. But it is anti-Semitic either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted Thursday at 03:51 AM Report Share Posted Thursday at 03:51 AM 37 minutes ago, carepov said: Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice. But it is anti-Semitic either way. There is a very long tradition of anti-Zionism among Jewish people. Whether for political philosophy reasons, religious reasons, anti- imperialism reasons etc they don't see the political project of Israel as beneficial or as a true expression of their culture/beliefs. So why are Jewish people able to sepatrate their opinion of Isrseli politics from their opinion of the ethnic group itself if you say the two can't be separated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Thursday at 03:39 PM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 03:39 PM Those are good points/questions that had me stumped for many years. Regarding the tradition of Jewish anti-zionism. Natasha Hausdorff made an excellent comparison in the Munk debate. Before having a child a couple can legitimately discuss the pros and cons of bring a new life into the world. This would be analogous to to the traditional anti-Zionists pre-1948. Once that child (the state of Israel) is born, there is no going back, you take care of her the best you can. Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either: -virtue signaling to gain status -concerned only to make money off books and interviews -ignorant -something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted Thursday at 03:50 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 03:50 PM 5 minutes ago, carepov said: Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either: -virtue signaling to gain status -concerned only to make money off books and interviews -ignorant -something else? So it's probably not anti-Jewish prejudice though? As far as your analogy, let me put it to you this way. Is opposing the Crusader States of the 11th-12th Century inherently based on anti-Christian bigotry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Thursday at 04:11 PM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 04:11 PM It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic. ... Regarding the crusaders. Maybe. I assume that the Mamluks were anti-Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted Thursday at 04:29 PM Report Share Posted Thursday at 04:29 PM (edited) 45 minutes ago, carepov said: It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic. It's not, because the rationale for why they oppose this political formation is not based on anti-jewish sentiment but rather a differing opinion about politics. Judaism is not the nation-state of Israel. So to oppose this nation state is not the same as opposing Jewish people. Just as Christianity was not the medieval Crusader States. Christians today widely condemn the crudades as fundamentally unchristian political endeavor, so how would this political opinion make them anti-christian? Edited Thursday at 04:57 PM by Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carepov Posted Thursday at 06:46 PM Author Report Share Posted Thursday at 06:46 PM It is because of the unique circumstances of Israel and the Jewish people. There is only one Jewish state in the whole world. Without this unique state, there would be terrible suffering of Jewish people. Hence, anyone that opposes the existence of this state is in favour of causing suffering to Jewish people. To be clear, it is absolutely fine to criticize the politics of Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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