Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism

[Matthew]

5 minutes ago, carepov said:

Without this unique state, there would be terrible suffering of Jewish people.

That seems to be a matter of supposition. I agree that it's reasonable to speculate that Jewish people face certain vulnerabilities in a stateless diaspora as they previously were. Many ethnic groups never developed their own nation-states, a few hundred years back when people were doing that. Most don't face terrible suffering as a result. However, the way in which Israel did come about and the way it continues to gravitate toward right-wing nationalism has created new antagonisms and attachments to the rivalries of great powers and thus puts Jewish people in a state of even greater vulnerability and risk. It is not unreasonable for people--Jewish or otherwise to believe that this is a self-destructive path and to argue that those coopting Judaism in the name of their nationalist political movement are the actual ones doing greater long-term harm to Jews. Again, like your own opinion, this is in the realm of supposition. But reasonable people have long disagreed about this and one side is not automatically anti-semitic for their opinion.

[carepov]

Supposition?

Without military strength to defend themselves, there would not be barely a single Jew alive in Palestine.  This is not supposition, simply read the Hamas charter.  Listen to the leaders of the Muslim world now and over the last 80 years.  Look at what happened to other Jewish communities in the ME.

[eyeball]

On 6/26/2024 at 8:06 PM, carepov said:

More or less, Yes.  Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice.  But it is anti-Semitic either way. 

In Israel it's largely based on ideology - if you're a lefty it's a safe bet you're an anti-Semite, especially if you're secular.

[carepov]

17 hours ago, eyeball said:

In Israel it's largely based on ideology - if you're a lefty it's a safe bet you're an anti-Semite, especially if you're secular.

No, I would bet that almost all Jews in Israel, left or right, religious or secular are Zionist.

Check out Noa Tishby and her book Israel.

[eyeball]

10 minutes ago, carepov said:

No, I would bet that almost all Jews in Israel, left or right, religious or secular are Zionist.

Check out Noa Tishby and her book Israel.

I will. In the meantime the concept of the Self loathing Jew persists 

"[45] Haaretz writes that the term is almost exclusively used today by the Jewish right against the Jewish left, and that within left-wing and liberal circles, is "usually considered a joke".[46] Richard Forer, writing for The Huffington Post, rejects the legitimacy of the term as it is commonly used, calling them so divisive that they make tolerance and cooperation impossible, eradicating the possibility for genuine understanding. Forer writes: "The notion that any Jew who is dedicated to justice for all people harbors self-hatred defies common sense. Given the self-esteem it takes to stand for justice amidst fierce denunciation, a more accurate assessment is that these are self-loving Jews."[47]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

[Black Dog]

On 6/26/2024 at 6:48 PM, carepov said:

Would you agree with wiki?

Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state, in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority.[13][14][1][15][16] It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.[17]

This is why anti-Zionism is not antisemitic. Being opposed to Israel as an ethnostate that affords greater rights and privileges to some people at the expense of others does not mean one has any animus towards Jews as individuals or as a group anymore than being opposed to apartheid South Africa had anything to do with not liking Boers.

[Michael Hardner]

54 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

 Being opposed to Israel as an ethnostate that affords greater rights and privileges to some people at the expense of others does not mean one has any animus towards Jews ...

I get that, but without Judaism then Israel isn't Israel.  i can accept that Jews in Israel could have some privileges such as Christians have in this non-religious country or similar cultural heirlooms in places like Denmark, England, Norway or Greece.  

But beyond that, I (and almost every single person who has considered the matter) am at a loss as to how such an idea would be enacted especially in the wake of wholesale killing of civilians by the current state of Israel and the terrorist organizations that currently represent the Palestinian minority.

That said... opposing Zionism isn't anti-Semitism as pretty much every Jewish friend of mine will attest to.

[carepov]

53 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

This is why anti-Zionism is not antisemitic. Being opposed to Israel as an ethnostate that affords greater rights and privileges to some people at the expense of others does not mean one has any animus towards Jews as individuals or as a group anymore than being opposed to apartheid South Africa had anything to do with not liking Boers.

That's why it is anti-Semitic.  Without a state with a Jewish demographic majority, Jews would be killed.  This is proven by:

a) History of many places where Jews are a minority

b) Current policies and recent actions by surrounding Arab populations

What rights do Jewish-Israelis have that Arab-Israelis do not?

Aren't there many countries that can be called a ethnostates? (a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group) Japan? Belgium? Northern Ireland? Latvia? Estonia? Switzerland? Iceland?

[carepov]

20 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That said... opposing Zionism isn't anti-Semitism as pretty much every Jewish friend of mine will attest to.

Michael, if a person were to oppose the existence of an Islamic State, would that person be Islamophobic?

[Matthew]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:45 PM, carepov said:

Without military strength to defend themselves, there would not be barely a single Jew alive in Palestine

It's possible to have pluralistic societies and tolerant neighbors. There are many of them in the world.

On 6/27/2024 at 4:45 PM, carepov said:

simply read the Hamas charter

Hamas, just like any powerful terrorist organization, is a symptom of a political vacuum. Non-state paramilirary actors only exist because of Israeli and US policies that have denied the creation of a legitimate state.

[Matthew]

14 minutes ago, carepov said:

Michael, if a person were to oppose the existence of an Islamic State, would that person be Islamophobic?

No, disliking the religion and cultures of Islam is completely different than disliking any Islamist political movement. A great many Muslims do not like Islamism just as many Jews do not like Zionism.

[Black Dog]

1 hour ago, carepov said:

That's why it is anti-Semitic.  Without a state with a Jewish demographic majority, Jews would be killed.  This is proven by:

a) History of many places where Jews are a minority

b) Current policies and recent actions by surrounding Arab populations

Complete and utter nonsense. Israel can exist as a state with a demographic Jewish majority while also being a state that offers equal rights for all its people.

Quote

What rights do Jewish-Israelis have that Arab-Israelis do not?

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights, but of course that's not how it works in reality. And then there's the millions of Palestinians who exist under Israeli authority but have no rights

Quote

 

Aren't there many countries that can be called a ethnostates? (a country populated by, or dominated by the interests of, a single racial or ethnic group) Japan? Belgium? Northern Ireland? Latvia? Estonia? Switzerland? Iceland?

I think there's a difference between state that is ethnically homogenous and an ethnostate where the state apparatus is dominated by a single ethnic group for the advancement of that group. Israeli ethnonationalism is quite literally of the blood-and-soil variety.

Edited July 5 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

33 minutes ago, carepov said:

Michael, if a person were to oppose the existence of an Islamic State, would that person be Islamophobic?

I wouldn't say so.  I think that there are innate contradictions in providing the right to pursue religion and also limiting what that means... for sure a "religious" state automatically assumes fewer rights for the minority, but ... if it works then ok.  Is anybody compaining that the English are outlawing non-Christians ?

These markers of metaphysical beliefs are fine to be allowed... even at the state level... if we all know what the limits are.

[Matthew]

38 minutes ago, carepov said:

That's why it is anti-Semitic.  Without a state with a Jewish demographic majority, Jews would be killed.

So far the Israeli state has not made life any safer for Jewish people. Aggressive nationalist land grabs and human rights abuses has led to many wars and nearly constant imminent threats violent conflict with a people who previously had little to no beef with Jews. Simply having a state and a majority Jewish population in that state has itself done zero to alleviate threats and deaths to Jewish people over the last 77 years.

In case you're confused, I'm not suggesting that the nation-state of Israel should right now cease to exist. Past foolish untra-nationalist decisions have already been made.

But think long term for a moment. The Jewish community is thousands of years old. The USA is 248 years old. We're probably not going to be around forever. Going forward, Israelis and the would community will either have to invest in a pluralistic society that respects and helps to develop a quality legitimate Palestinian nation-state neighbor. Or they will have to divest in their claims and go live elsewhere. Those are the only two sustainable long-term choices. The current situation will last for awhile but for one reason or another the USA inevitably will not be around to fund and defend Israel as a propped-up satelite state.

[carepov]

54 minutes ago, Matthew said:

It's possible to have pluralistic societies and tolerant neighbors. There are many of them in the world.

Yes, and Israel is one of them.  Are there any other pluralistic societies in the Middle East/Arab World?

55 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Hamas, just like any powerful terrorist organization, is a symptom of a political vacuum. Non-state paramilirary actors only exist because of Israeli and US policies that have denied the creation of a legitimate state.

You should try listening to what terrorist originations actually say and write.  Hamas does not call for a two-state solution.  Hamas is calling for the death of all Jews.

Is/was the US or Israel to blame for ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, IRA, FLQ, ETA...?

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

No, disliking the religion and cultures of Islam is completely different than disliking any Islamist political movement. A great many Muslims do not like Islamism just as many Jews do not like Zionism.

I did not say "disliking" I said "opposing the exitance of"

[carepov]

54 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Complete and utter nonsense. Israel can exist as a state with a demographic Jewish majority while also being a state that offers equal rights for all its people.

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights, but of course that's not how it works in reality. And then there's the millions of Palestinians who exist under Israeli authority but have no rights

I think there's a difference between state that is ethnically homogenous and an ethnostate where the state apparatus is dominated by a single ethnic group for the advancement of that group.

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights

Bingo.

Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world.

With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world.  Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

[carepov]

37 minutes ago, Matthew said:

So far the Israeli state has not made life any safer for Jewish people. Aggressive nationalist land grabs and human rights abuses has led to many wars and nearly constant imminent threats violent conflict with a people who previously had little to no beef with Jews.

Do I understand you correctly, are you claiming that at one time in history there were Jews living under Arab/Muslim rule where there was "little or no beef with Jews"?

40 minutes ago, Matthew said:

In case you're confused, I'm not suggesting that the nation-state of Israel should right now cease to exist. Past foolish untra-nationalist decisions have already been made.

OK good, you therefore support Zionism.

42 minutes ago, Matthew said:

But think long term for a moment. The Jewish community is thousands of years old. The USA is 248 years old. We're probably not going to be around forever. Going forward, Israelis and the would community will either have to invest in a pluralistic society that respects and helps to develop a quality legitimate Palestinian nation-state neighbor. Or they will have to divest in their claims and go live elsewhere. Those are the only two sustainable long-term choices. The current situation will last for awhile but for one reason or another the USA inevitably will not be around to fund and defend Israel as a propped-up satelite state.

For 76 years Israelis have been "investing in a pluralistic society that respects and helps to develop a quality legitimate Palestinian nation-state neighbor."

There is no current legitimate Palestinian leadership.

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, carepov said:

Israel is one of them

I agree with that for the most part.

 

2 hours ago, carepov said:

Hamas does not call for a two-state solution.

Not relevant to anything I said. I don't care about Hamas. They are bad and plenty of Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims and anyone else who wishes for a better future wants one without them existing. Zionist nationalism as a movement has caused groups like this to come into being due to their refusal to allow a legitimate Palestinian state.

 

2 hours ago, carepov said:

was the US or Israel to blame for ISIS, Al-Qaeda...

Absolutely. US intelligence and foreign policy experts for decades have detailed the problem of blowback.

2 hours ago, carepov said:

not say "disliking" I said "opposing the exitance of"

That's a non-response. Many Muslims and others oppose the existence of islamist political movements like ISIS and it doesn't remotely make them islamophobic. Are you actually arguing that it does?

2 hours ago, carepov said:

Do I understand you correctly, are you claiming that at one time in history there were Jews living under Arab/Muslim rule where there was "little or no beef with Jews"?

Between the 1300s and the mid-1800s the Ottoman Empire was generally a safe haven for Jewish people, where they enjoyed significant prestige, prosperity, and sometimes their own local self government. Within the context of the Turkish Ottoman system, Arabs were conquered subjects and ethnic rivals to Jews within the empire. Jews often enjoyed higher status in the empire. So relations with Arab communities was more variable depending on the local political situation.

2 hours ago, carepov said:

you therefore support Zionism

I am not black and white on the issue as you seem to be. Realistic political decisions must have nuance and pragmatism. My own support for US nationalism is very low and it's my own country. My support for anyone else's nationalism is even lower.

2 hours ago, carepov said:

There is no current legitimate Palestinian leadership

The framework for that has to be created. You can't just bomb millions people for decades and deny them a representative government and then complain when they are ruled by ad hoc illiterate paramilitary groups. The longer israeli nationalists prevent this the more long-term danger they face.

Edited July 5 by Matthew

[carepov]

47 minutes ago, Matthew said:

I agree with that for the most part.

 

Not relevant to anything I said. I don't care about Hamas. They are bad and plenty of Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims and anyone else who wishes for a better future wants one without them existing. Zionist nationalism as a movement has caused groups like this to come into being due to their refusal to allow a legitimate Palestinian state.

 

Absolutely. US intelligence and foreign policy experts for decades have detailed the problem of blowback.

That's a non-response. Many Muslims and others oppose the existence of islamist political movements like ISIS and it doesn't remotely make them islamophobic. Are you actually arguing that it does?

Between the 1300s and the mid-1800s the Ottoman Empire was generally a safe haven for Jewish people, where they enjoyed significant prestige, prosperity, and sometimes their own local self government. Within the context of the Ottoman system, Arabs were ethnic rivals to Jews within the empire--so relations with Arab communities was more variable depending on the local political situation.

I am not black and white on the issue as you seem to be. Realistic political decisions must have nuance and pragmatism. My own support for US nationalism is very low and it's my own country. My support for anyone else's nationalism is even lower.

The framework for that has to be created. You can't just bomb millions people for decades and deny them a representative government and then complain when they are ruled by ad hoc illiterate paramilitary groups. The longer israeli nationalists prevent this the more long-term danger they face.

You seem to have absolutely  no understanding of terrorist groups.  Again, listen to what they call for they are not a response to injustice they are calling for MORE injustice!! Do you realize that they would kill you mercilessly, assuming that you are non-muslim?

You do not care about Hamas?  That is a luxury that Israel does not have.  Do you realize that a majority of people in Gaza and the Westbank support Hamas?

Again, my argument is this.  If you are calling for the elimination of Israel (not you but those that are anti-Zionists) then you are an antisemite.  The same way as if you called for the dismantling of Ukraine you would be an anti Ukrainian bigot.

If you support the existence of Israel, you are, by definition, a Zionist.  This is black and white.  You can be a Zionist but oppose settlements, borders, etc...

I will look into your claim about the treatment of Jews by the Ottomans.

Again, please stop being so condescending towards Palestinians and Arabs.  They are not victims of Jewish manipulation, their leaders have far more control over their fate than you think.  Listen to what they say and judge them by their actions.

 

[Matthew]

10 minutes ago, carepov said:

You seem to have absolutely  no understanding of terrorist groups.

Undignified ad hominum.

10 minutes ago, carepov said:

they are not a response to injustice

No not a rational response to injustice, but a natural consequence to any power vacuum. The only long term way to combat terrorism is to remove the political and material conditions in which it thrives by  building a stable and just society. More nationalism and more killing of civilians is how you make the terrorism grow.

16 minutes ago, carepov said:

You do not care about Hamas?

I don't care about Hamas in the sense of valuing their existence in any way.

17 minutes ago, carepov said:

If you are calling for the elimination of Israel (not you but those that are anti-Zionists) then you are an antisemite.

I get what you're arguing. On the Venn diagram of people who hate Jews in one blob and people who don't want the Israeli state in another blob, those two circles would significantly overlap.  My argument is still that they in fact do not 100% overlap.

22 minutes ago, carepov said:

Palestinians ... are not victims of Jewish manipulation

Of course they are. Gazans in particular are imprisoned in a stateless territory by Israel and ruled over against their will by unelected leaders of a terrorist group.

[Black Dog]

4 hours ago, carepov said:

Officially Arab Israelis have the same rights

Bingo.

Yeah you're ignoring the roughly 3 million Arabs who live under Israel's thumb who do not enjoy the same rights as their Arab-Israli counterparts.

Quote

Of course here is racism and discrimination in Israel, Canada, US, Japan and everywhere else in the world.

With such excellent representation in Political, Cultural and Economic life of Arab-Israelis, I would argue that there is less racism and discrimination in Israel that almost anywhere in the world.  Certainly less than anywhere in the Middle East.

On what basis? This is an absurd statement.

[carepov]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

Yeah you're ignoring the roughly 3 million Arabs who live under Israel's thumb who do not enjoy the same rights as their Arab-Israli counterparts

No, the topic was Arab-israelis.

Compare them to how Jews are treated in Arab countries.

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

On what basis? This is an absurd statement

On the basis that Israel is one one the most progressive societies in the world.  One of the first to grant women full rights.  Gay marriage, etc...

On the basis that Arab Israelis have representation in the Knesset proportional to their population (how many countries can make that claim about minorities?) Arab Israelis are judges, doctors, entrepreneurs, soldiers, etc...

For a real example of discrimination look up the status of Palestinians living in Lebanon.

[carepov]

17 hours ago, Matthew said:

Undignified ad hominum.

No not a rational response to injustice, but a natural consequence to any power vacuum. The only long term way to combat terrorism is to remove the political and material conditions in which it thrives by  building a stable and just society. More nationalism and more killing of civilians is how you make the terrorism grow.

I don't care about Hamas in the sense of valuing their existence in any way.

I get what you're arguing. On the Venn diagram of people who hate Jews in one blob and people who don't want the Israeli state in another blob, those two circles would significantly overlap.  My argument is still that they in fact do not 100% overlap.

Of course they are. Gazans in particular are imprisoned in a stateless territory by Israel and ruled over against their will by unelected leaders of a terrorist group.

I like how you think in terms of Venn diagrams.  There are Venn diagrams for different causes of terrorist groups and other diagrams for how to deal with them.

Let's not forget religion.  It is a major factor.  

Ideally yes, improve the lives of all people and then there would be no support for terrorist groups.  Sadly, the world is not ideal and I am having a hard time coming up with examples of terrorists being eliminated this way.  Perhaps the IRA? One could argue that this is partially how Israel dealt with the PLO as living standards in the occupied territories increased.  How would you deal with Hamas?  Isis was defeated by force and so were many other groups around the world.  I noticed that you had no comments about the other terrorist groups that do not fit your simplistic single-venn-bubble model. (Eg Boko Haram)

Don't forget the roll of Egypt in "imprisoning" Gaza.

Regarding Israels manipulation and control of Gazans, this is very a very condescending attitude towards Gazans.  Their leaders chose to source and fire rockets and plan end execute 10/7.  Wouldn't you agree?

[Matthew]

1 minute ago, carepov said:

I am having a hard time coming up with examples of terrorists being eliminated this way.

There are many but in recent years, the disbanding of the IRA and ETA terrorist groups would be most similar to Hamas.

 

15 minutes ago, carepov said:

How would you deal with Hamas?

There is nothing idealistic about it. Short-term, militaries can combat the military mobilization of a terrorist groups as a military opponent, but to eliminate the group entirely long-term the society in which the terror group functions needs to be able to deal with the group as a criminal rather than military entity. They need a modern nation-state with a court system and police force and intelligence network. They need an educational system and healthcare and economy in which a young man can take care of his family better via education and a job rather than bribes by Hamas recruiters.

[carepov]

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

There are many but in recent years, the disbanding of the IRA and ETA terrorist groups would be most similar to Hamas.

 

There is nothing idealistic about it. Short-term, militaries can combat the military mobilization of a terrorist groups as a military opponent, but to eliminate the group entirely long-term the society in which the terror group functions needs to be able to deal with the group as a criminal rather than military entity. They need a modern nation-state with a court system and police force and intelligence network. They need an educational system and healthcare and economy in which a young man can take care of his family better via education and a job rather than bribes by Hamas recruiters.

It would be great if Hamas disbanded like the IRA and ETA.  The Islamic elements of Hamas make it very different though.

Who's job is it to provide these things (courts, education, etc..)?

Edited July 6 by carepov