Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism

[carepov]

https://munkdebates.com/debates/munk-debate-on-anti-zionism/

Zionism today is the support for continued existence of Israel.

Anti-Zionists therefore support the dismantling of Israel.

Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews.

Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism

[Michael Hardner]

Non-sequitur

[carepov]

What do you mean?

[Michael Hardner]

33 minutes ago, carepov said:

What do you mean?

It does not follow.

If Israel didn't exist we all would start killing Jews ?

"Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews."

It doesn't follow.

[carepov]

Of course it follows.  A cursory look at the history of Arab-Israeli conflicts, and the stated aims of groups like Hamas, proves that without an Israeli state there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews.

[Michael Hardner]

17 minutes ago, carepov said:

Of course it follows.  A cursory look at the history of Arab-Israeli conflicts, and the stated aims of groups like Hamas, proves that without an Israeli state there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews.

Expulsion from Israel you mean ?  

[carepov]

Yes, without the state of Israel, there would be mass killing and expulsions of Jews from the land of Israel.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, carepov said:

Yes, without the state of Israel, there would be mass killing and expulsions of Jews from the land of Israel.

Well that seems to follow.  If they expelled Israelis peaceably would anti-Zionism still mean anti-Semitism ?

[carepov]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well that seems to follow.  If they expelled Israelis peaceably would anti-Zionism still mean anti-Semitism ?

You have a strange sense of humour.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, carepov said:

You have a strange sense of humour.

It's a thought experiment.  I guess you don't want to go there.  

[carepov]

I am all for rational though experiments, but is there such a thing as "peaceable expulsion"?

[Michael Hardner]

38 minutes ago, carepov said:

I am all for rational though experiments, but is there such a thing as "peaceable expulsion"?

Maybe announcing that you have two hours to get out like they did in Gaza..

 

[carepov]

Exactly, that's war.

So, do you agree that anti-zionism is also anti-Semitism?

[Matthew]

On 6/21/2024 at 5:50 PM, carepov said:

Exactly, that's war.

So, do you agree that anti-zionism is also anti-Semitism?

Arabic is a Semitic language just as Hebrew is. Since you acknowledge that Israel is engaging mass-killing and expulsion of Arabs, is the state of Israel therefore anti-Semitic?

[carepov]

1.From wiki:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism)[a] is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews.

2. Israel is not engaging in mass expulsion

[Black Dog]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:08 PM, carepov said:

https://munkdebates.com/debates/munk-debate-on-anti-zionism/

Zionism today is the support for continued existence of Israel.

Anti-Zionists therefore support the dismantling of Israel.

Without the state of Israel, there would be a mass killing and expulsion of Jews.

Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism

That is not what Zionism is. 

[carepov]

7 hours ago, Black Dog said:

That is not what Zionism is. 

Would you agree with wiki?

Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of Israel as a Jewish state, in particular, a state with a Jewish demographic majority.[13][14][1][15][16] It has also been described as Israel's national or state ideology.[17]

[Matthew]

23 hours ago, carepov said:

Antisemitism... is hostility to, prejudice towards, or discrimination against, Jews.

It is definitely that, but not necessarily exclusively. You're using the word "semitic," which by definition undeniably includes Arabs.

Zionism is the modern Jewish nationalism movement culminating in the nation state of Israel formed in 1948.

So is your claim therefore that any opposition to the political legitimacy of the state of Israel is inhetently based upon anti-Jewish pejudice?

[carepov]

6 minutes ago, Matthew said:

So is your claim therefore that any opposition to the political legitimacy of the state of Israel is inhetently based upon anti-Jewish pejudice?

More or less, Yes.  Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice.  But it is anti-Semitic either way. 

[Matthew]

37 minutes ago, carepov said:

Anti-zionism can be based on either ignorance or anti-jewish prejudice.  But it is anti-Semitic either way. 

There is a very long tradition of anti-Zionism among Jewish people. Whether for political philosophy reasons, religious reasons, anti- imperialism reasons etc they don't see the political project of Israel as beneficial or as a true expression of their culture/beliefs.

So why are Jewish people able to sepatrate their opinion of Isrseli politics from their opinion of the ethnic group itself if you say the two can't be separated?

[carepov]

Those are good points/questions that had me stumped for many years.

Regarding the tradition of Jewish anti-zionism. Natasha Hausdorff made an excellent comparison in the Munk debate. Before having a child a couple can legitimately discuss the pros and cons of bring a new life into the world. This would be analogous to to the traditional anti-Zionists pre-1948. Once that child (the state of Israel) is born, there is no going back, you take care of her the best you can.

Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either:

-virtue signaling to gain status

-concerned only to make money off books and interviews

-ignorant

-something else?

[Matthew]

5 minutes ago, carepov said:

Today's Jewish anti-Zionists are either:

-virtue signaling to gain status

-concerned only to make money off books and interviews

-ignorant

-something else?

So it's probably not anti-Jewish prejudice though?

As far as your analogy, let me put it to you this way. Is opposing the Crusader States of the 11th-12th Century inherently based on anti-Christian bigotry?

[carepov]

It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic.

...

Regarding the crusaders.  Maybe.  I assume that the Mamluks were anti-Christian.

[Matthew]

45 minutes ago, carepov said:

It may not be based on "anti-jewish prejudice" (i.e. anti-Semitism) but it is anti-Semitic.

It's not, because the rationale for why they oppose this political formation is not based on anti-jewish sentiment but rather a differing opinion about politics.

Judaism is not the nation-state of Israel. So to oppose this nation state is not the same as opposing Jewish people.

Just as Christianity was not the medieval Crusader States. Christians today widely condemn the crudades as fundamentally unchristian political endeavor, so how would this political opinion make them anti-christian?

Edited June 27, 2024 by Matthew

[carepov]

It is because of the unique circumstances of Israel and the Jewish people.

There is only one Jewish state in the whole world.

Without this unique state, there would be terrible suffering of Jewish people.

Hence, anyone that opposes the existence of this state is in favour of causing suffering to Jewish people.

To be clear, it is absolutely fine to criticize the politics of Israel.