Isn't now the time for US to stop supporting Ukraine to end the conflict?

[WestCanMan]

On 6/2/2024 at 10:19 AM, wwef235 said:

Having no illusions, he explained in detail why there's only one way Ukraine can end this conflict – by becoming a neutral state and refusing the idea of joining NATO. Moreover, according to him, it's neutrality must be permanent. If it doesn't happen, the war won't end, and the West's shipment of arms only encourages this scenario.

Exactly.

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The American Conversative (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/?p=467849) did research on the subject. First, the shipment of arms to Ukraine earns the US nothing wasting it's resources.

I disagree here: it's profitable to the people who are keeping this war running.

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Second, helping Taiwan now is a priority as it has many semiconductor and IC plants. If China takes over Taiwan, the US economy, unlike Ukraine's, will suffer huge losses.

I'm not convinced that taking China on head-on, right in their back yard, is a good idea. 

America is better off starting domestic chip manufacturing, which they already have. If they wanna spend more money, they should spend it on more chip manufacturing.

34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

@Deluge I read the first and last points...

US started the war... 

Gay Pride parades also to blame...

Carry on without me. 🤔

Classic display of confirmation bias.

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

As opposed to the stink of undying Ukrainian support?

There is no "stink" associated with defending a country from BRUTAL AGGRESSION.

1 hour ago, Deluge said:

How much more tax money do you war mongers want to throw at those degenerates? 

Is the ENTIRE MAGA CULT as cheap and short sighted as you?

[Deluge]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

1. There is no "stink" associated with defending a country from BRUTAL AGGRESSION.

2. Is the ENTIRE MAGA CULT as cheap and short sighted as you?

1. The aggression is all woketards, ALL of the time. 

2. Whoring out tax dollars is not MAGA-like. It's left-wing cult-like. You a$$holes have destroyed Ukraine and sold out this country. 

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Surrender is incredibly difficult. You stand to lose face, and part of your land.

Defending nothing is much easier.

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

But it is also understanding that a country can only lose so much, and Putin isn't going anywhere nor will he retreat. Ukraine has shown they can only hold ground and Russia has strategically taken more land and surprised many with how well they have held it.

Not surprising when House RepubliCONS have slow rolled the aid.

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't see how this war continues if the US elects a Republican nominee.

Right, as said, Trump OWES Putin and Putin OWNS Trump.

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

How many Ukrainian soldiers were lost?

Too many. But they have kept their country from Putin's jack boots.

 

[robosmith]

1 minute ago, Deluge said:

1. The aggression is all woketards, ALL of the time. 

2. Whoring out tax dollars is not MAGA-like. It's left-wing cult-like. You a$$holes have destroyed Ukraine and sold out this country. 

You are DELUGINAL. It was Putin who destroyed Ukraine.

Thanks for showing your treasonous agenda by standing up for Putin's.

[Deluge]

37 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You are DELUGINAL. It was Putin who destroyed Ukraine.

Thanks for showing your treasonous agenda by standing up for Putin's.

Woke a$$holes in Ukraine, NATO, and even in this forum. 

Thanks a lot, Obama. 

[robosmith]

6 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Woke a$$holes in Ukraine, NATO, and even in this forum. 

Thanks a lot, Obama. 

YOU are the ahole ^here. 🤮

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Deluge said:

Woke a$$holes in Ukraine, NATO, and even in this forum. 

Thanks a lot, Obama. 

Yes I get it, you want them dead...

[WestCanMan]

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

This is the argument, and it does have a fair bit of validity. For many many years america had to be very careful about what it did in other countries because they could move into the Russian sphere of influence and gain weaponry and technology and oppose America. This is especially true in the middle east.

To combat this america frequently gave weapons and money and other supports to countries they would really rather not have in order to make Russia less attractive. Iran comes to mind. There are f-15s sitting on Iranian airfields to this very day.

 

And inevitably the US always ends up facing the soldiers they trained in the ME, along with the weapons that the US gave them, on the battlefield.

I wonder if that will eventually happen with Ukraine as well. Not as likely, but still a consideration. 

[WestCanMan]

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Many US citizens would want the war to end. Many Ukrainians, too.

All wars have limits. Once you're deep into the trillions of dollars, am quite sure the public opinion will dramatically change.

Americans were pumped about an early victory in this war (as is promised in almost every war) but it's well into the category 'long war of attrition' now.

The ecstasy is gone. Even the cultists will start moving on eventually. 

[Deluge]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yes I get it, you want them dead...

I want your cult dead. You as people are probably OK when you're not parroting leftist bullshit. 

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

It’s always a red flag when a newbie shows up and within minutes of creating their account is creating new threads with long diatribes that support the Russian agenda. 

the Russian agenda. the Russian agenda. the Russian agenda. the Russian agenda. 

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Also notice how the cartoon in the OP doesn’t portray Russia…just Ukraine boiling in some undescribed “crisis”. LMAO

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, yeah, so funny HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(dolt)

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The only villain in the cartoon is the US

Yeah, so dumb. Where's that midget actor, who always wears green?

 

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

And inevitably the US always ends up facing the soldiers they trained in the ME, along with the weapons that the US gave them, on the battlefield.

 

For sure. But that's kind of the point, it's better to eliminate the need to supply weapons and support in order to retain political interest in an area in the face of the Russians offering the same thing. If the Russians are too busy worrying about their own needs to provide anyone else with weapons then the US doesn't run into the same problem where they have to.

Or so the argument goes    but it is probably having a significant impact in the situation in israel right now.  

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I wonder if that will eventually happen with Ukraine as well. Not as likely, but still a consideration. 

Who can say with certainty? Even if the Ukrainians never turn against the US given the corruption there it's possible that the weapons that were given to them will fall into the hands of someone who would. Certainly the Russians didn't expect that the weapons would be used against their forces when they originally left them there back in the day.

I mean let's get real, the best solution is that everybody stays in there own corner of the world and quit screwing around with everyone else. But that's not going to happen. So all you can do is make your best choice, and no choices without risk.

I think it should be clear to everybody that regardless of whether or not you support the idea of weakening Russia or not, this war cannot go on forever. Russia has already been weakened, it's material stockpiles and supplies of war depleted, the effectiveness of its equipment has been discredited, it's reputation as a military power has been reduced. 

Meanwhile on the other side all of the stocks of older material that the allies were happy to get rid of have been used up, any of the weapons testing that they would have liked to see in real world experience has been done and the cost of maintaining the war is climbing.

So there is severely diminishing return to keep it up even if you are a subscriber to the idea of weakening Russia by supporting the conflict. I mean, they can't just carry on paying 20 to 40 billion a year in perpetuity I would think

[Guest]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Defending nothing is much easier.

As is swallowing one's pride, if it means saving tens of thousands of lives being lost needlessly.

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Not surprising when House RepubliCONS have slow rolled the aid.

People will ultimately vote for how important this war is to them, among other things.

Putin is desperately seeking an exit ramp but refuses to lose face. It would be more constructive to give him one, vs spending billions to hold appearances.

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

Right, as said, Trump OWES Putin and Putin OWNS Trump.

At least there would be dialogue.

I don't think Biden could end this conflict and fast track Ukraine joining NATO.

See how you wish. I see it as two men desperate to make themselves and their egos look good, after nothing but humiliating losses. A match made in heaven.

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

But they have kept their country from Putin's jack boots.

Without aid, they would have been toast. The moment that aid is pulled, they would be fish food. 

Best to find a resolution, to avoid having to face that scenario.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

The ecstasy is gone.

At this point, its just a body in your bed that happens to be warm. There is literally no purpose for this. Especially not at the price tag.

Americans are struggling and will vote selfishly.

 

[robosmith]

2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Americans are struggling and will vote selfishly.

 

True. Some Americans understand the longer term BENEFITS are greater than the short term costs.

[Guest]

Just now, robosmith said:

Some Americans understand the longer term BENEFITS are greater than the short term costs.

Hard to make that message resonate, to those who are scraping by, while billions of dollars in aid are helping keep a stalemate intact.

[robosmith]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

Hard to make that message resonate, to those who are scraping by, while billions of dollars in aid are helping keep a stalemate intact.

Aid to Ukraine has NO EFFECT on benefits "to those who are scraping by."

In fact it increases employment in the US defense industry.

[Michael Hardner]

8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Hard to make that message resonate, to those who are scraping by, while billions of dollars in aid are helping keep a stalemate intact.

Well this is actually an excellent point first of all. But I do have to point out a side question that I always have. Which is " are those scraping by involved in the Public sphere at all?"

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, robosmith said:

True. Some Americans understand the longer term BENEFITS are greater than the short term costs.

The short term costs you're talking about include destroyed homes, destroyed cities, and tens of thousands of dead men, women and children. 

That's great to achieve your political goals but you're neither Ukrainian or Russian - you're American - so weighing your political opinion vs the value of tens of thousands of their lives is a bit extreme, don't you think? 

The military industrial complex and all the senators and congressmen who knew where to invest might be profiting from Biden's war, but Americans, Ukrainians and Russians aren't.

[robosmith]

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The short term costs you're talking about include destroyed homes, destroyed cities, and tens of thousands of dead men, women and children. 

That is ALL ON PUTIN. Duh

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

That's great to achieve your political goals but you're neither Ukrainian or Russian - you're American - so weighing your political opinion vs the value of tens of thousands of their lives is a bit extreme, don't you think? 

Ukrainians can surrender ANY TIME THEY WANT.

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The military industrial complex and all the senators and congressmen who knew where to invest might be profiting from Biden's war, but Americans, Ukrainians and Russians aren't.

Biden neither started this war nor can he fund it without Congressional approval.

But thanks for the aid from Canada. 👍

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

True. Some Americans understand the longer term BENEFITS are greater than the short term costs.

The short-term cost is that they can't afford food. A lot of people aren't going to be okay with that