The Enigma of Quebec City

[August1991]

The point of this thread seems to be getting through to English Canada. This article is based on the Bloc's internal report.

We're all tiresomely familiar with the issue of Quebec vs. the Rest of Canada. But how many of us really understand the difference between Montreal and the RoQ, or Rest of Quebec, and its impact on electoral politics, provincially and federally?

...

Other than Action Democratique du Quebec leader Mario Dumont, who is from the Lower St. Lawrence region, every party leader looks about as natural at a Knights of Columbus meeting in St-Recule-par-le-Tonnerre as poor old Stockwell Day did on that jet ski.

Premier Jean Charest is at home with genteel anglos, Mr. Duceppe is at one with artsy and public-sector union types, federal Liberal leader Stephane Dion is at his best with francophile Ontarians, not many of whom live near La Malbaie, and PQ leader Andre Boisclair was accurately described by La Presse's Lysiane Gagnon as "urban to his fingertips." The only ones who seem to "get" Quebec rural voters and suburban hard-working middle-class families are Mr. Dumont and, to a much lesser extent given the linguistic and cultural barriers, Stephen Harper.

It's almost like politicians and regional voters are from different planets. They don't think the same way, don't worry about the same stuff, all think the other guys talk funny, and nobody can trust anybody from the other gang. Which is more or less what former Bloc Quebecois MP Helene Alarie wrote in a scathing report her party commissioned on what led to the surprising Conservative electoral victories around Quebec City in the 2006 federal election.

...

According to Ms. Alarie, the Bloc has become too left-wing, too pro-gay marriage, and too pro-gun control. She writes, "Our hypothesis is that the Bloc is out of sync with the deep conservatism of a large segment of Quebec-Chaudiere-Appalaches' electorate, an old-stock French population who are prudent, traditional, 99-per cent francophone and who, without being racist or reactionary, do not necessarily want to imitate the multi-ethnic Montreal, the Montreal of the gay village, the Montreal that's surprisingly anglophone in its downtown, which they discover on television or when they visit."

Ottawa Citizen

[geoffrey]

If the CPC leader was a francophone (Quebecois by birth) like Bernard Lord, would we see higher results?

How about if the CPC ran a real deal Quebecois like Mr. Bernier?

[Charles Anthony]

GeofFrey, your strategy is about a quarter century too old in style and in effectiveness.

I have a better idea: they should stick with Stephen Harper and focus on governing.

[geoffrey]

GeofFrey, your strategy is about a quarter century too old in style and in effectiveness.

I have a better idea: they should stick with Stephen Harper and focus on governing.

Harper isn't going to win a majority. They should stick with him until the next election. If he can't deliver a majority then, then let's see Lord or Bernier.

I honestly think either of those two, with the ADQ being strong in Quebec, could mean the end of relevance for the Bloc Quebecois... opening up majority opportunities once again in Ottawa.

[Charles Anthony]

GeofFrey, two things:

1) your political strategy is superficial; my mother would call that "taking people for stupid"

2) point of order: should I go back and delete my post #28 since you re-copied it in its entirety?

[geoffrey]

1) your political strategy is superficial; my mother would call that "taking people for stupid"

People are stupid, they leave themselves open for that. My question basically revolved around would Quebecois from ADQ areas in Quebec be more open to a leader from their province? I think the answer would likely be yes.

[August1991]

An internal report commissioned by the Bloc blamed its poorer-than-expected 2006 results on the perception that it has become primarily a Montreal-based party. Under Boisclair, the PQ has also become a harder sell outside Montreal.

When all is said and done, Duceppe and Boisclair are really two peas from the same Montreal pod. In many sovereignist quarters, one might not be seen as a winning substitute for the other.

But it could also be argued that their common troubles in the more conservative areas of Quebec are symptoms of a much deeper malaise, i.e. the breaking down of the sovereignist coalition.

Even as it strives to make inroads in the multicultural sections of Montreal under urban leaders such as Duceppe and Boisclair, it is losing ground in its traditional francophone strongholds.

And that brings about yet another potential scenario, one that is increasingly talked about even if it has yet to materialize in the polls: A rout of historic proportions for the PQ on March 26.

Chantal Hebert

Historical rout? No. But the ADQ may do well outside of Montreal, taking some seats from the PQ.

Clearly though, the PQ is now suffering from the same Montreal, urban patina as the BQ. In English Canadian terms, they're too Starbucks and not enough Tim's.

[Charles Anthony]

My question basically revolved around would Quebecois from ADQ areas in Quebec be more open to a leader from their province? I think the answer would likely be yes.

ADQ areas? I have not looked at any recent maps that are based on the most recent polls in Quebec. Nevertheless, outside of Montreal, what could a Quebecois in an "ADQ area" possibly want that a Quebecois in a "non-ADQ area" could NOT want?

People may be stupid but they usually still know what they want. The baker does not need a smart butcher to figure out how to trade with him. I believe the safest bet for any outsider politician is to assume that people want security and maybe some control. Relative to the perceived choices, the separatist movement is probably not convincing.

For Stephen Harper to be accepted AT ALL in Quebec is monumental. I believe it is a grave mistake to suggest that the Quebecois want to see a Quebecois leader. In the past, that made sense. Now, it does not. By choosing Stephane Dion for a leader, I wonder if the federal Liberals were thinking the same way as you do.

[August1991]

Not bad. Pas mal. Paul Wells

In the Quebec City region, meanwhile, I'm not sure you'd believe me if I told you. OK, I'll tell you. BQ 31%, Liberals 13%, Conservatives 39%. With those numbers, they at least hold their current numbers in Quebec City and bid fair to pick up seats. Didn't see that coming, did you.

[August1991]

It's interesting that in the Quebec City region, the PQ held on to its two seats. The ADQ won its seats from the provincial Liberals.

The "enigma" of Quebec City should be found sought outside of Quebec City now.

[bilanglomo]

This is a few days old but confims the tendency:

Québec demeure un château fort pour Stephen Harper. Son parti y récolte 44 % des intentions de vote, une montée de six points depuis octobre, le BQ a 29 % d'appuis à Québec et le PLC seulement 13 %.

Le Soleil

This is based on a CROP poll:

C'est la conclusion à laquelle en arrive la maison CROP dans son plus récent sondage, une enquête menée auprès de 1000 Québécois du 23 novembre au 3 décembre derniers. Cette enquête omnibus, dont La Presse et Le Soleil publient le volet politique, est précise à trois points près.

Since this poll was conducted during the federal Liberal Party convention, these results are striking. In all likelihood, Harper will coinserve the 10 Quebec seats. Maxime Bernier has proved to be an excellent cabinet minister.

It is fascinating to contemplate the long term consequences of this. I'm not prepared to say that Quebec City and the Beauce are more representative of Quebec than Montreal is. I think Dion is now identified more as a Montréalais than a Québécois - to the extent these distinctions matter.

[bilanglomo]

This is a few days old but confims the tendency:

Québec demeure un château fort pour Stephen Harper. Son parti y récolte 44 % des intentions de vote, une montée de six points depuis octobre, le BQ a 29 % d'appuis à Québec et le PLC seulement 13 %.

Le Soleil

This is based on a CROP poll:

C'est la conclusion à laquelle en arrive la maison CROP dans son plus récent sondage, une enquête menée auprès de 1000 Québécois du 23 novembre au 3 décembre derniers. Cette enquête omnibus, dont La Presse et Le Soleil publient le volet politique, est précise à trois points près.

Since this poll was conducted during the federal Liberal Party convention, these results are striking. In all likelihood, Harper will coinserve the 10 Quebec seats. Maxime Bernier has proved to be an excellent cabinet minister.

It is fascinating to contemplate the long term consequences of this. I'm not prepared to say that Quebec City and the Beauce are more representative of Quebec than Montreal is. I think Dion is now identified more as a Montréalais than a Québécois - to the extent these distinctions matter.

[August1991]

Au Québec, le Bloc québécois arrive toujours en tête dans les intentions de vote avec 39% des appuis. Le Parti conservateur arrive bon deuxième avec 25% tandis que le Parti libéral et le NPD sont à égalité pour la première fois, avec 15% des appuis chacun. Le Parti vert recueille pour sa part 5%. Mais dans la région de Québec, le Parti conservateur continue de damer le pion au Bloc québécois en obtenant 47% des intentions de vote, comparativement à 25% pour les troupes de Gilles Duceppe.

En Ontario, le Parti libéral et le Parti conservateur sont pratiquement à égalité, obtenant 35% et 34% respectivement. Le NPD arrive troisième avec 19% tandis que le Parti vert récolte 8%.

À la question de savoir qui ferait le meilleur premier ministre, 42% des Canadiens ont choisi Stephen Harper, 16% ont opté pour Jack Layton et 14% ont nommé Stéphane Dion. Même s'il ne peut devenir premier ministre, Gilles Duceppe a été choisi par 6% des personnes interrogées.

Ce sondage, réalisé auprès de 1455 personnes du 13 au 17 octobre, comporte une marge d'erreur de 2,6 points de pourcentage, 19 fois sur 20. Au Québec, 557 personnes ont été interrogées et la marge d'erreur s'élève à 4,1 points. En Ontario, 510 personnes ont été sondées, ce qui donne une marge d'erreur de 4,3 points.

La Presse

The fact that the Tories seem stalled at 36% matters less than this result in the Quebec City region. This is a small sample but the results are in line with the past. I think this will be key in the upcoming federal election - the Tories have become the federalist alternative in French Quebec and votes in Ontario will depend on this.

The Bloc at 39% seems a little high to me - although it's well below the Bloc's past success.

And all of this happened despite the Quebec regiment in Afghanistan.

----

It's almost comical to see pequistes still take pleasure in watching Dion and the Liberals have problems. They still see Liberal and federalist as synonym. That chicken has long since flown the coop.

It's worth pointing out though that Pauline Marois comes from the Quebec City region. Take away the chateau in Montreal and she's still une fille de Lévis Lauzon.

Edited October 20, 2007 by August1991

[frankbaker]

The collective psyche of Quebeckers goes a long way in explaining why Canada is where it is now, and explaining the so called "Enigma of Quebec City". Here's how it was brought to be. Notice the recurring pattern.

The British came and militarily conquered and subjugated the people living here. The French king abandoned them to their fate, most of the higher classes and administrators fled, leaving the Church as sole local administrative body over the people. Some of us wanted to fight the British, but most were kept in obedience by the priests, who collaborated with the British in exchange for maintaining their status. They were too many of us for them to deport us like they deported the Acadians. Outnumbered in a remote, hard to access land, the British army played it safe. It toned down any unnecessary oppression, bringing in fresh administrators.

Then 20 years later the American revolution came. Having thrown the British out of the 13 colonies, the Americans sent expeditions north to finish the job in the last remaining english-controlled land, the "Province of Quebec". Some Quebeckers (called "Canadians" at that time) saw the Americans as liberators and joined ranks with them to throw the British out of their land. Others were told to fight with the British by their priests who were afraid that American republican values were contrary to the Church and traditions of the Monarchy, they were told that their language and faith was protected by the British, that it wasn't a liberation but an invasion. In exchange, the British gave privileges to collaborators, and killed off as traitors those fighting for their freedom with the Americans. Those Quebeckers who collaborated helped fight off the Americans and in a way saved this land for the British, not knowing that they would soon pay the price for it. The war ended and throves of loyalists, Americans who fought on the wrong side of the revolution and lost (traitors to the Revolution and its values), move into Quebec to stay British. These were the original English-Canadians, cowards and traitors back home technically. Then began the slow and steady process by which the original Quebeckers went from being the majority to being the minority, gradually drowned in British immigration.

About a third of the way through, the Rebellions of the 1830s came, again plotting collaborating loyalists against freedom-seekers. Again, one camp was punished while the other was thanked for loyalty. The ordinary Quebecker was then pushed back in obscurity as a 2nd class citizen for generations. The trouble started again when the Church got out of the picture. The fight for civil and collective rights brought back ideas of self-determination, which brought back fear of dissent and fresh threats and gifts to insure loyalty and collaboration. The same old pattern...

The underlying theme to this saga is fear, real and induced (for collaborative purposes). This fear lead to a watering down of key values (self-respect, pride, self-determination, solidarity) common in any society. The sweet and sour treatment a group of people receives over the years, brought by a pattern of gift/punishment responses to behavior (some of which contrary to human nature) has lead to a schizophrenic social mindset among modern-day Quebeckers. This is what explains the "Enigma of Quebec City". Quebec City was the seat of power for a long time to the British, people there have had the "gifts" reflex deeply imprinted in them. No surprises people there today are more collaborative to the Feds. Not to mention Quebec City people are known for being real princesses.

This is why to this day, there are two types of Quebeckers, the collaborator and the rebel (freedom-seeker). The collaborator pursues the same sick tradition (first set by the priests) of being bought for staying faithful, like prostitutes, they are given money, investments, high-ranking government jobs (Prime Ministers...), apparent rights (even though rights are to be taken, not given). etc. in exchange for continued loyalty. The other Quebecker, the freedom-seeker, wants to break away from from this model, stop the cycle, stop acting like a prostitute or a primadona, go out on its own, do what the Americans did. [There's also a 3rd type that recently appeared, a kind of hybrid, these are in fact collaborators that pretend to be freedom-seekers as a tool to getting the "goods" from Ottawa.] Only the 2nd type of citizen is mature and healthy for the sake of Canada's and Quebec's future. It is highly unhealthy for Canada to pursue the model of buying Quebec loyalty, it's demeaning for both. Canada is no longer a British territory needing collaboration to fight off the US. This obsession against US independence has been transferred to one against Quebec independence. Canadians (and their Quebec collaborators) are loyalists at heart, they feel that they "have" to fight "rebellion", without thinking, even when divorce appears to be the only healthy and mature thing to do.

[August1991]

Food for thought:

L'adhésion aux valeurs véhiculées par l'Action démocratique du Québec (ADQ) demeure passablement forte chez les résidants de la ville de Québec, malgré la crise à la direction du parti l'automne dernier et sa déroute électorale dans les autres régions.

En réponse à une question dans un sondage de la firme Segma Recherche réalisé pour le compte du Soleil, la moitié des citoyens de Québec considèrent que l'ADQ a toujours sa raison d'être, alors que 42 % ont une opinion contraire.

«Le parti a perdu des plumes partout au Québec, mais moins dans la ville de Québec. S'il y avait une élection, ça ne veut pas dire pour autant que l'ADQ ferait élire le même nombre de députés dans la région», a commenté le patron de la firme de sondages, Raynald Harvey.

Le Soleil

Despite what the anti-Conservative Toronto media will claim, Harper won't lose his seats in Quebec. The Conservatives may even gain a seat or two - assuming Harper says and does what he believes.

Edited January 3, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

Harper won't lose seats, but earlier last year he would have. It's not about the "Toronto Media" lying to anyone, it's about changing numbers. Oh, and The Sun sucks, no matter which language it's in.

[Topaz]

I still don't understand why Harper allowed Quebec to be a "nation within a nation"? Was it for votes? I didn't work? By Harper saying this are we going to have the Chinese community in BC because nation within a nation or any other ethnic group? The only nation that should be a nation within a nation is the First Nation peoples. Do you think I'm wrong and if so why?

[chuck schmidt]

A fact that has certainly not gone unnoticed in Langevin Block is the following:R-C

Montreal is no more Quebec than Toronto is English-Canada.

Friends in BC who were from Quebec, deeply francophone people whose French accent you could cut with a knife, said that Quebec separatism was by and large a Montreal elitist creation.

[Riverwind]

The only nation that should be a nation within a nation is the First Nation peoples.

The 'nation' debates are nothing but silly word games that depend on the fact that the word 'nation' in the english language has multiple meanings can be used to describe a cultural or political grouping of people. The people who insist on using the word nation for cultural groups are people to seek to create the illusion that these cultural groups are somehow equivalent to a political state.

[jbg]

Friends in BC who were from Quebec, deeply francophone people whose French accent you could cut with a knife, said that Quebec separatism was by and large a Montreal elitist creation.

I wouldn't be surprised. Elites (note I didn't use the word "elitist") often have very different concerns than the average person trying to balance a checkbook or a businessman trying to meet a payroll.

[William Ashley]

The 'nation' debates are nothing but silly word games that depend on the fact that the word 'nation' in the english language has multiple meanings can be used to describe a cultural or political grouping of people. The people who insist on using the word nation for cultural groups are people to seek to create the illusion that these cultural groups are somehow equivalent to a political state.

They are. The only issue with Quebec not being a nationstate is that it doesn't have its head.

You need to take into consideration that Canada is not a "Nation", it is a Federation. A nation is uniquely independent centralized whole with a common identity. Canada is a number of provinces with distinct cultures and societies. Eg. The natives, Newfondland, the maritimes, Quebec, Ontario, The praries, alberta B.C. and the territories. As a whole it is a British occupied land area with subjected native, french and various immigrant subjects - who have in time attained a new common citizenship other than commonwealth citizen (although we are all still commonwealth citizens also) This isn't even taking into account the multiethnic background of Canadian immigration, and the multiple states that natives groups exist as within the first nations. The unity of Canada is something which is really only a conjuration of an occupying force that the occupiers and subjects may have a hard time in seeing if they consider themselves free rather than subjected to another entity's laws. Although Canada has come a long way with giving universal or near universal suferage, but it wasn't until 50 years after confederation that women or natives or immigrants were able to vote. It has taken some time, but Canada still is a fairly stratified and fragmented society culturally and socially - Canada serves as a means of unification rather than a fact of common heritage and history - it is something that had been constructed rather than naturally existing.

FEDERATION

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation

NATION

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation

Canada is a self recognized sovereign state and COUNTRY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country

It is a Federation composed of many nationalities. As a state it has a dual citizenship and in some cases tri or quadruple citizenship

Canadian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada

Quebeqois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_nationalism

see also: http://www.assnat.qc.ca/eng/38legislature1/projets-loi/publics/07-a195.htm

First Nations Aboriginal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_nations

Commonwealth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations

Edited January 17, 2010 by William Ashley

[August1991]

In the Quebec City region, the Conservatives have a healthy lead at 33 per cent, against 24 per cent for the Bloc and 22 per cent for the Liberals.

...

This, in essence, is where the Conservatives were going this past week with their decision to close their office in Montreal, and open one in Quebec City. The staffing decisions made by the Quebec lieutenant, Christian Paradis, were also significant. Ghislain Maltais becomes director of operations on the ground out of Quebec City, while Joseph Soares becomes the communications manager and number cruncher out of the Conservative Party's national headquarters in Ottawa.

While they not are exactly household names, these are the two guys who ran Généreux's winning campaign in Rivière-du-Loup. Maltais is a former Liberal member of the National Assembly from the Bourassa era, while Soares previously ran the Quebec desk in the PM's office. Both are from Lawrence Cannon's political shop, and no one in the Conservative camp is closer to the Quebec Liberals than the foreign affairs minister, himself a former provincial minister during the Bourassa years.

L. Ian Macdonald

Here's a link to a report of the original CROP poll:

Actuellement 37% des Québécois s'estiment satisfaits du gouvernement Harper, 1% de moins qu'au mois d'octobre.

...

Mais la répartition géographique de ces appuis est importante : les conservateurs réduits, à 15% à Montréal, décrochent 33% d'appuis dans la région de Québec, où ils ont remporté leurs sièges aux dernières élections.

À Québec, le Bloc et le PLC sont loin derrière avec 24 et 22% des intentions de vote respectivement.

La Presse

[jbg]

They are. The only issue with Quebec not being a nationstate is that it doesn't have its head.

Strange opening. But gets stranger.

Canada is a number of provinces with distinct cultures and societies. Eg. The natives, Newfondland, the maritimes, Quebec, Ontario, The praries, alberta B.C. and the territories. As a whole it is a British occupied land area with subjected native, french and various immigrant subjects - who have in time attained a new common citizenship other than commonwealth citizen (although we are all still commonwealth citizens also) This isn't even taking into account the multiethnic background of Canadian immigration, and the multiple states that natives groups exist as within the first nations.

When one subsidizes these freak shows unproductive separatist and militant movements what do you expect?

The unity of Canada is something which is really only a conjuration of an occupying force that the occupiers and subjects may have a hard time in seeing if they consider themselves free rather than subjected to another entity's laws. As a whole it is a British occupied land area with subjected native, french and various immigrant subjects - who have in time attained a new common citizenship other than commonwealth citizen (although we are all still commonwealth citizens also) This isn't even taking into account the multiethnic background of Canadian immigration, and the multiple states that natives groups exist as within the first nations.

And what would French and/or native standards of living be without the subsidies? Occupation? I wouldn't consider this anything like the way that Nigeria treats its animist and Christian areas or the way Sudan treats its Christians. You are using strong language which is totally unjustified.

Although Canada has come a long way with giving universal or near universal suferage, but it wasn't until 50 years after confederation that women or natives or immigrants were able to vote. It has taken some time, but Canada still is a fairly stratified and fragmented society culturally and socially - Canada serves as a means of unification rather than a fact of common heritage and history - it is something that had been constructed rather than naturally existing.

What are you babbling about? Most are there because they chose to be in Canada.

[August1991]

The only issue with Quebec not being a nationstate is that it doesn't have its head.

What are you babbling about? Most are there because they chose to be in Canada.

What do either of you know of Quebec City?

Have either of you thought about your arrogance? You both seem to speak quickly about subjects of which you know little. You are both typical Americans. I am tired of listening to people with no knowledge of a subject adopt the topic to advance their own personal agenda.

I prefer the scientific method, a healthy scepticism.

----

This recent CROP poll has an important message for English Canadians, in Ontario in particular. Harper (a WASP) has the support, at the federal level, of the heart of French North America.

[jbg]

What do either of you know of Quebec City?

I was referring to immigrants in part you quoted. I have been there twice for 3 days each time.