Perspektiv Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 This was acknowledged by Biden, himself. The obvious. Gaza doesn't want the war to end, nor to protect the best interests of its population. Why is the onus entirely on Israel to bring a stop to this conflict? What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 Not really. I mean, it might put a lot of pressure on Israel to stop... but their goal from the beginning was not the mere release of the Hostages. They have repeatedly refused to any ceasefire deal that calls for a complete end to the war or their military operations, as I don't know how they said it exactly, but they are going to end Hamas rule. Now, Hamas might be able to walk away with their lives if they surrender, but I am not seeing that Israel is going to just let them live on and continue to rule in Gaza for the Hostages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Gaza doesn't want the war to end, nor to protect the best interests of its population. It would be more accurate to say Hamas doesn't want peace. For the same reason Netanyahu's political coalition doesn't want peace. Peace would make them both redundant. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demosthese Posted May 12 Report Share Posted May 12 2 hours ago, eyeball said: It would be more accurate to say Hamas doesn't want peace. For the same reason Netanyahu's political coalition doesn't want peace. Peace would make them both redundant. You’re assuming that the people with authority to release hostages would lose authority if Hamas was disbanded. If the release of hostages lead to an independent Palestine then the officers who lead successful military operations will all be taken in for the army Palestine will construct. Obviously any treaty Isreal writes up will include limitations of their military but international pressure will force them to allow some defensive military. No one who has any amount of authority in Hamas is under the impression that the unconditional release of hostages will lead to an independent Palestine and that’s why it has not happened. However, Isreal as an established government does have people in high places who would appreciate the high military budget aswell as munitions provided by America and others. They refuse to sign a ceasefire with the condition of the liberation of any and all hostages. This pact would result in the released hostages but has three major problems. 1. Bending to a group you’ve designed as terrorists is a bad move on the world stage for anyone. 2. Hostages justify a prolonged conflict, which Isreali officers will financially profit from. And last but not least 3. If hamas gives up a military advantage which ends up saving civilians with the clear goal to creat a peaceful solution, they seam much more reasonable. If the populous decides that Isreal is being an unreasonable aggressor then countries will begin to lose confidence in their backing. Right now America especially is holding up this conflict. If politicians can no longer sustainably defend Isreal then they lose most of their current advantage. -Demosthenes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 13 Author Report Share Posted May 13 6 hours ago, eyeball said: Peace would make them both redundant This doesn't explain why that onus must fall on Israel's shoulders, at least publicly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 13 Report Share Posted May 13 19 hours ago, eyeball said: It would be more accurate to say Hamas doesn't want peace. For the same reason Netanyahu's political coalition doesn't want peace. Peace would make them both redundant. Here you go again, trying to bring some kind of moral parity to Israel and Hamas. Lets do a quick history lesson here: There was peace BEFORE Hamas decided to invade Israel, killing women and children and going into families homes to kill, rape, torture, and take hostages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 19 hours ago, User said: There was peace BEFORE Hamas decided to invade Israel There seems to be nobody in the media with the b*lls to point that very fact out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 (edited) On 5/12/2024 at 8:25 AM, Perspektiv said: This was acknowledged by Biden, himself. The obvious. Gaza doesn't want the war to end, nor to protect the best interests of its population. Why is the onus entirely on Israel to bring a stop to this conflict? What am I missing here? The fact that Hamas offered to release all hostages Oct. 9 in exchange for Israel staying out of Gaza and Bibi refused. So much for your premise. Edited May 16 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Black Dog said: The fact that Hamas offered to release all hostages Oct. 9 in exchange for Israel staying out of Gaza and Bibi refused. So much for your premise. Of course, he and the War Council refused. Israel is not a dictatorship. They now have a unity government with a war council containing the opposition leader. Hamas had just engaged in one of the most horrific terrorist attacks in modern history and one of the most significant attacks on Jews since the Holocaust. They raped, tortured, killed women & Children and took hostages. And you are here arguing Israel should have been like, OK, no big deal, just give us the Hostages back and all is good. That IS EXACTLY why Hamas takes hostages, to hide behind them. The get to commit the rape, torture, killings and get away with it because they also took hostages. The hostages were only half the demand, after what Hamas did, there is no more peace, there is only their destruction or surrender to prevent it from happening again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 27 minutes ago, User said: Of course, he and the War Council refused. Israel is not a dictatorship. They now have a unity government with a war council containing the opposition leader. Hamas had just engaged in one of the most horrific terrorist attacks in modern history and one of the most significant attacks on Jews since the Holocaust. They raped, tortured, killed women & Children and took hostages. And you are here arguing Israel should have been like, OK, no big deal, just give us the Hostages back and all is good. That IS EXACTLY why Hamas takes hostages, to hide behind them. The get to commit the rape, torture, killings and get away with it because they also took hostages. The hostages were only half the demand, after what Hamas did, there is no more peace, there is only their destruction or surrender to prevent it from happening again. I don't care about any of that. The point is all the people saying "the war would end if Hamas just released the hostages" like the OP here are full of sh!t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 1 minute ago, Black Dog said: I don't care about any of that. The point is all the people saying "the war would end if Hamas just released the hostages" like the OP here are full of sh!t. Who said that? The post you responded to dit not assert that. I am glad you agree, though, that it is absurd to think Israel should have engaged in any peace with Hamas on day 2 just because they offered the Hostages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 34 minutes ago, User said: Who said that? The post you responded to dit not assert that. Hey man quick question, what's the thread title here. Quote I am glad you agree, though, that it is absurd to think Israel should have engaged in any peace with Hamas on day 2 just because they offered the Hostages. Yes I'm aware Israel never cared about the hostages (which is why the IDF killed so many Israelis on Oct. 7) and is prosecuting this war because it's the only thing keeping that crooked s.o.b. Bibi in power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 23 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Yes I'm aware Israel never cared about the hostages (which is why the IDF killed so many Israelis on Oct. 7) and is prosecuting this war because it's the only thing keeping that crooked s.o.b. Bibi in power. So... you were being dishonest when you said you did not care about any of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 24 minutes ago, User said: So... you were being dishonest when you said you did not care about any of that. Are you deflecting from the fact that you didn't bother reading the thread title? LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 2 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Are you deflecting from the fact that you didn't bother reading the thread title? LOL. Can you understand how the quote function works and see what I responded to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 16 Author Report Share Posted May 16 4 hours ago, Black Dog said: The fact that Hamas offered to release all hostages Oct. 9 in exchange for Israel staying out of Gaza After killing over 1, 200 innocent civilians? Are you serious? You have started a war, the moment you cross over sovereign land, and slaughter 1, 200 people. Negotiations are done with machine guns and bombs, until you get the message, and then one can sit down at a table, once enough of your forces have paid the price for your actions. Hamas negotiates in a way where they are mocking their opposition: "Yes. We raped 200 women, and slaughtered children and men. However, because we want peace, we are willing to extend in kindness, all hostages that we have taken" "Even those we have killed, will have their bodies gently returned" *unhooks grenade* "How about we shake on it, and let bygones be bygones, hmmm?" Sorry, but a thief break into my house with a knife, talking about "I want your money, your wife, and your car keys"....that person has earned a bullet between the eyes. The negotiation stopped once they broke in. Backtracking when a gun gets drawn will earn them no sympathy from me. Again, unsure what am missing here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 16 Report Share Posted May 16 26 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: After killing over 1, 200 innocent civilians? Are you serious? You have started a war, the moment you cross over sovereign land, and slaughter 1, 200 people. Negotiations are done with machine guns and bombs, until you get the message, and then one can sit down at a table, once enough of your forces have paid the price for your actions. Hamas negotiates in a way where they are mocking their opposition: "Yes. We raped 200 women, and slaughtered children and men. However, because we want peace, we are willing to extend in kindness, all hostages that we have taken" "Even those we have killed, will have their bodies gently returned" *unhooks grenade* "How about we shake on it, and let bygones be bygones, hmmm?" Sorry, but a thief break into my house with a knife, talking about "I want your money, your wife, and your car keys"....that person has earned a bullet between the eyes. The negotiation stopped once they broke in. Backtracking when a gun gets drawn will earn them no sympathy from me. Again, unsure what am missing here. So what you're saying is if Hamas released hostages the war in Gaza would not be over in 24 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 17 Author Report Share Posted May 17 2 hours ago, Black Dog said: So what you're saying is if Hamas released hostages the war in Gaza would not be over in 24 hours? Post retaliatory strikes, of course they would. Now you're negotiating with a more even hand. After they f***ed your s**t up, you accepting is you being spineless. Attack my country, and there better be a heavy handed return slap. Then we can shake hands as you pick yourself up from the rubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Post retaliatory strikes, of course they would. Now you're negotiating with a more even hand. After they f***ed your s**t up, you accepting is you being spineless. Attack my country, and there better be a heavy handed return slap. Then we can shake hands as you pick yourself up from the rubble. Oh so they wouldn't end the war until they got their fill of revenge, hostages or no. So what makes you think they have now, considering they just rejected another offer to free the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire? You really need to come to grips with the fact the hostages are irrelevant to Israel's government, which is something even the families of those still in captivity are saying. Edited May 17 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 17 Author Report Share Posted May 17 44 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Oh so they wouldn't end the war until they got their fill of revenge, hostages or no. What kind of message do you send these animals (Hamas), in letting them slaughter your people, then begging for your hostages without making them pay an insanely severe consequence for even remotely thinking of plotting such an attack? Them even offering it, is a joke. What, now they are gentlemen and diplomats all of a sudden? In the animal world, consequences speak for themselves. You venture too far as a gazelle, and become food to a predator. Cross our border again with that stunt, and we level the remainder of the country to ruin. There should no other message. Now, we can negotiate. Sorry, but you don't get to walk into my house, take my s*** then call the shots when finding out am heavier armed than you are. Deal with the consequences, then if there is empathy, maybe we can talk. 52 minutes ago, Black Dog said: You really need to come to grips with the fact the hostages are irrelevant to Israel's government Completely humiliating and crushing Hamas is just as good. Hostages are likely all dead by now, and Hamas has no leverage. Sorry, but I feel no sympathy for Hamas. Talks can only happen once most of their tunnels are destroyed, and just like cockroaches, you force them into the light to be exterminated. They are animals. Treat them accordingly. Including negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 On 5/12/2024 at 1:29 PM, eyeball said: It would be more accurate to say Hamas doesn't want peace. For the same reason Netanyahu's political coalition doesn't want peace. Peace would make them both redundant. On 5/13/2024 at 9:29 AM, User said: Here you go again, trying to bring some kind of moral parity to Israel and Hamas. Lets do a quick history lesson here: There was peace BEFORE Hamas decided to invade Israel, killing women and children and going into families homes to kill, rape, torture, and take hostages. I think in this case, you're both correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 15 hours ago, Perspektiv said: What kind of message do you send these animals (Hamas), in letting them slaughter your people, then begging for your hostages without making them pay an insanely severe consequence for even remotely thinking of plotting such an attack? Them even offering it, is a joke. What, now they are gentlemen and diplomats all of a sudden? In the animal world, consequences speak for themselves. You venture too far as a gazelle, and become food to a predator. Cross our border again with that stunt, and we level the remainder of the country to ruin. There should no other message. Now, we can negotiate. Sorry, but you don't get to walk into my house, take my s*** then call the shots when finding out am heavier armed than you are. Deal with the consequences, then if there is empathy, maybe we can talk. Completely humiliating and crushing Hamas is just as good. Hostages are likely all dead by now, and Hamas has no leverage. Sorry, but I feel no sympathy for Hamas. Talks can only happen once most of their tunnels are destroyed, and just like cockroaches, you force them into the light to be exterminated. They are animals. Treat them accordingly. Including negotiations. LOL this is an incredible backpedal from the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 17 Author Report Share Posted May 17 2 hours ago, Black Dog said: LOL this is an incredible backpedal from the OP. How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted May 17 Report Share Posted May 17 18 hours ago, Perspektiv said: you don't get to walk into my house, take my s*** then call the shots How come Israel gets to do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted May 18 Author Report Share Posted May 18 13 hours ago, eyeball said: How come Israel gets to do this? To quote rapper Game: "Don't start nothin', there'll be nothin' unnh!" Like I said. You walk into my house with a knife, trying to bogart my stuff, and find out I have better weapons. You now are operating under my rules, until I decide to put an end to it by calling the police or taking care of matters myself. Until that decision is made, you have through your own actions, made yourself my b***h. Hamas only has itself to blame. I feel sympathy for the innocent civilians, but none for the consequences that Hamas has brought onto itself. They clearly don't value life. They are animals (Hamas). Give them death, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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