Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 39 minutes ago, User said: So.. again, you are arguing Biden let Russia invade Ukraine because he was afraid of the politics of it if he stopped them? So you are arguing that politics doesn’t affect political decisions? The usual actors are accusing Biden of being a war monger just because he supports Ukraine’s fight for its own sovereignty. It wasn’t Biden who held up the aid bill to provide Ukraine with more support. Why do you think Biden could have stopped the invasion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 2 hours ago, Aristides said: The usual actors and Russia boosters here are already blaming Biden for starting the war by supposedly trying to get Ukraine into NATO. Stop trying to use big words. Biden has been trying to get Ukraine into NATO for a long time: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/world/europe/22biden.html You can deny all you want but, as usual, I'm the one with the proof here and you just have poutiness and slander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 1 hour ago, Aristides said: So you are arguing that politics doesn’t affect political decisions? The usual actors are accusing Biden of being a war monger just because he supports Ukraine’s fight for its own sovereignty. It wasn’t Biden who held up the aid bill to provide Ukraine with more support. Why do you think Biden could have stopped the invasion? By sending aid BEFORE the invasion. By collaboration with NATO to send weapons packages BEFORE the invasion. By being more forceful instead of inviting Russia to invade just a little bit: When you have this clown leading America after watching him run from the Taliban like he disgracefully did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 (edited) 33 minutes ago, User said: By sending aid BEFORE the invasion. By collaboration with NATO to send weapons packages BEFORE the invasion. By being more forceful instead of inviting Russia to invade just a little bit: When you have this clown leading America after watching him run from the Taliban like he disgracefully did... Putin denied he was going to invade. Giving Ukraine weapons beforehand would have just been used as a provocation to invade. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/12/russia-kremlin-ukraine-nato-threats-521031 Trump negotiated the deal with the Taliban to leave Afghanistan. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51692546 Your 20/20 revisionist hindsight is impressive. Edited May 11 by Aristides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 3 minutes ago, Aristides said: Putin denied he was going to invade. Giving Ukraine weapons beforehand would have just been used as a provocation to invade. So, you are a big believer that Putin is a decent and honest man now? That while he is moving massive amounts of troops, weaponry, aircraft, and the logistics to stage a full blown invasion... that oh hey, Putin says he isn't going to invade! So we totally have to believe him. I bet you think he really won like 80% of the vote too! (or whatever the absurd amount was) Trump did not stage the withdrawal Biden did or how he did it nor was Biden beholden to any deal if the conditions changed as they did. But sure... Biden can undo everything Trump did on day one. Change border policies, change Iran policies, blow up the Middle East peace deals Trump was working on, reverse course across any number of executive agencies decisions and functions... but sure, he couldn't do anything other than what Trump made him do on Afghanistan. LOL My version of history is just fine, as it is based on facts here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 1 minute ago, User said: So, you are a big believer that Putin is a decent and honest man now? That while he is moving massive amounts of troops, weaponry, aircraft, and the logistics to stage a full blown invasion... that oh hey, Putin says he isn't going to invade! So we totally have to believe him. I bet you think he really won like 80% of the vote too! (or whatever the absurd amount was) Trump did not stage the withdrawal Biden did or how he did it nor was Biden beholden to any deal if the conditions changed as they did. But sure... Biden can undo everything Trump did on day one. Change border policies, change Iran policies, blow up the Middle East peace deals Trump was working on, reverse course across any number of executive agencies decisions and functions... but sure, he couldn't do anything other than what Trump made him do on Afghanistan. LOL My version of history is just fine, as it is based on facts here. Your version of history is based on your version of facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 Just now, Aristides said: Your version of history is based on your version of facts. Like how? Which ones do you take issue with? This is all you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 Just now, User said: Like how? Which ones do you take issue with? This is all you have? The MAGA crowd wants to abandon Ukraine altogether, spare me your phoney concern for Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 1 minute ago, Aristides said: The MAGA crowd wants to abandon Ukraine altogether, spare me your phoney concern for Ukraine. I am not the MAGA crowd. So... spare me your attempts to avoid having to put up an intelligent, well-thought-out response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 2 minutes ago, User said: I am not the MAGA crowd. So... spare me your attempts to avoid having to put up an intelligent, well-thought-out response. Your response hasn't refuted anything I have said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 Just now, Aristides said: Your response hasn't refuted anything I have said. Which is why instead of actually responding to what I said... you come up with some phony DURRRRRR "MAGA Crowd" DURRRRR response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 1 minute ago, User said: Which is why instead of actually responding to what I said... you come up with some phony DURRRRRR "MAGA Crowd" DURRRRR response? For sure that isn't an intelligent response. So you think a president should able to do what ever they want, including giving billions worth of arms to foreign countries without approval from Congress? You sure sound like MAGA to me. Politics is the art of the possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 8 minutes ago, Aristides said: Putin denied he was going to invade. Giving Ukraine weapons beforehand would have just been used as a provocation to invade. There already was provocation to invade. That ship sailed over a decade ago. FYI you don't get to decide what Russia considers a provocation, and the US almost started WWIII in 1962 for far less provocation than Russia faced. Quote https://www.politico.com/news/2021/11/12/russia-kremlin-ukraine-nato-threats-521031 Trump negotiated the deal with the Taliban to leave Afghanistan. That's such a tiny part of the story it's just a farce. Biden changed the timeline, breaking the deal, and angering the Taliban The decision to leave Bagram and use an open, unprotected airbase was silly and created chaos The biggest factor here is that the Taliban feared Trump. Enemy leadership was being killed off at a rapid pace when Trump was president, and even in the ME he had earned respect. The Taliban never would have "been angered" by Trump, they would have just renegotiated while accepting the fact that they were at a disadvantage. What you fail to acknowledge is that everything somehow "worked out" under Trump. Instead of having new, massive terrorist orgs taking over country-sized swaths of land and committing genocides, terrorist orgs were disappearing under Trump. Al Qaeda was believed to be gone for good by the end of Trump's presidency. NoKo had quieted down. Russia/Ukraine was quiet. The Afghan war was dying down with a whimper. Israel was normalizing relations with Arab countries. The US border was secure and getting more and more secure by the day. The US economy was booming and Americans had their biggest increases in disposable income in several generations. Covid put a damper on Trump's economy, obviously, but his track record for winning was very impressive. Biden has f'd literally everything up. There are massive wars in Europe and the ME now. Inflation is the highest that it has been in several generations. Illegal immigration is at catastrophic levels. It goes without saying that the Afghan withdrawal was a military fiasco comparable to Little Bighorn, the Bay of Pigs, and the retreat from Viet Nam. The Afghan withdrawal just fits with Biden's success level in every other facet of his presidency. Imagine a guy with neatly coiffed hair, a sharp suit, shiny shoes, glistening watch, and wearing a pair of dirty gym socks as a tie. That's what the Afghan withdrawal, as it went down under Biden, would look like on the Trump presidency. Just completely out of place. The Afghan withdrawal fits Biden like a glove. Dirty gym socks look normal on a homeless man's feet. And Biden was the one who got them dirty. They got dirty during his presidency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 43 minutes ago, Aristides said: The MAGA crowd wants to abandon Ukraine altogether, That's an overly broad brush, and entirely incorrect. I, for one, am a huge Trump supporter, and a huge believer that Ukraine should be cut off, and the Russians warned to stop where they're at, but: a lot of "MAGA" types fully support war in Ukraine, even in an expanded capacity, with more active participation by NATO members. That's just a blatantly obvious fact. FYI just because some people blame Biden for the start of the war doesn't mean that they also want western influence to die an ignominious defeat at the hands of Putin, right? A lot of people are just way more complicated than you are. They can make room for conflicting emotions inside of their head, and give them all Oxygen. "Yeah, this war shouldn't have started, but now that we've taken a side, there are some positive things that might be accomplished..." Make sense? And that's just one option. There are millions more, because there are millions of people. Why do you have to be so sick and wrong all the time? There are some easy points to be made by you, within the limits of reason and integrity, but you're just determined to never go there. You're so infatuated with partisan politics that the world is jet black and snow white in your eyes. You have to back the leftists, lie about conservatives, slander anyone who disagrees with your world views, etc. It's juvenile and fruitless. For whatever it's worth, I don't see any value whatsoever in the Ukrainian war continuing. I don't see value in killing enough people to move the borders any further one way or the other. Not even one fogging inch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 For whatever it's worth, I don't see any value whatsoever in the Ukrainian war continuing. I don't see value in killing enough people to move the borders any further one way or the other. Not even one fogging inch. Here's an example of a conservative POV... I joined Canada's military, and consequently became a NATO asset as well, because I believed entirely in defending my country, fighting if there was an attack on us or our allies, and winning at whatever cost was necessary. I understood that there was a good chance that I'd be killed, but I'd personally rather die fighting than running or hiding. At the same time, I 100% respect the rights of every man in Russia to have the same attitude about defending their own homeland. Ditto for the rights of Iranians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Cubans, Mexicans, Peruvians, Ghanans and anyone else you can think of. In my opinion, we shoved NATO so far up Russia's arse that they had no choice but push back, and Ukraine had fair f'ing warning. Ukraine can go straight to hell, and they already did, so IMO they should chalk this up as a lesson learned and sit the F down. I don't support even 1 Cdn dollar going to Ukraine, but I also think it's time for Russia to stand down, where they are. Moving these battle lines either way will come at a catastrophic cost to human life and it's not worth it. I'm not backing NATO's push. We were a-holes, and I don't appreciate being made an a-hole in all of this. If any of my friends who are still in the military die as a result of this bullshit, I'll be well beyond f'ing angry, and not at Russians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted May 11 Author Report Share Posted May 11 (edited) On 5/10/2024 at 11:09 AM, WestCanMan said: Joe did provoke the invasion. That has been public knowledge since 2009, when he was openly promoting the idea of NATO in Ukraine. If you don't think that's provocation then you've just reached a brand new level of stupid that even the other leftards here can only dream of. Joe has been saying Ukraine is not ready for NATO membership since 2009. "Promoting the idea" is NOT an invitation. Stop LYING. The provocation was Ukraine's impeachment of Putin puppet Yanukovych due to his Berkut goon's mass KILLING of protesters at Maidan and RENEGING on his campaign promise to sign a trade agreement with the West instead of Russia. IOW, you don't know what you're LYING about. Watch Winter on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom Netflix https://www.netflix.com › title Over 93 days in Ukraine, what started as peaceful student demonstrations became a violent revolution and full-fledged civil rights movement. Watch trailers Edited May 11 by robosmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted May 11 Report Share Posted May 11 2 hours ago, robosmith said: Joe has been saying Ukraine is not ready for NATO membership since 2009. "Promoting the idea" is NOT an invitation. Stop LYING. The provocation was Ukraine's impeachment of Putin puppet Yanukovych due to his Berkut goon's mass KILLING of protesters at Maidan and RENEGING on his campaign promise to sign a trade agreement with the West instead of Russia. IOW, you don't know what you're LYING about. Watch Winter on Fire: Ukraine's Fight for Freedom Netflix https://www.netflix.com › title Over 93 days in Ukraine, what started as peaceful student demonstrations became a violent revolution and full-fledged civil rights movement. Watch trailers I already provided links to Biden and his Ukraine-in-Russia push. The US is the leader of the free world, so when the VPOTUS is openly pushing for it, that's more than just an invitation, it's also a nudge for other nations to say the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robosmith Posted May 11 Author Report Share Posted May 11 41 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: I already provided links to Biden and his Ukraine-in-Russia push. The US is the leader of the free world, so when the VPOTUS is openly pushing for it, that's more than just an invitation, it's also a nudge for other nations to say the same thing. NOT when he's saying they're NOT READY. He's been saying they need to clean up their corruption FIRST FOR YEARS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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