Evangelical Harper

[Concerned]

TML,

If a woman is over 35 years of age it is recommended that she get something called a triple screen to see if she is at risk for 3 problems that can severely affect a baby's life: Spinal bifida, Trisomy and Down Syndrome. This screen test is done at about 22 weeks. If the test comes in "high risk" the doctor will often recommend amniocentesis. In order to ensure that a healthy baby is not put a risk by the amnio, it is recommended that the woman wait until at least 15 weeks, however the triple screen doesn't normally get done until 22. So then the woman goes for the amnio and has to wait another 2 weeks for results. Then if severe abnormalities are found, the woman could be faced with an abortion decision and by the time she is booked to have the procedure, she is almost 5 months pregnant.

Very scary, but those are the medical facts, and this is procedure for pregnant women over 35, which as we know, is growing to be a very high ratio of women today. Doing things any earlier in the pregnancy causes undue risk to a healthy fetus.

So eugenics are our future Concerned?

Any child with defects should be terminated? Why even allow parents that could pass on diseases to have children? Shouldn't we just sterilize people and save us money in the long run?

When my mother got the pre-screening test, it came back positive that I would have mental and physical problems. The doctor recommended my mother terminate her pregnancy. My family is very Catholic and anti-abortion so my mother made the responsible choice to have me even knowing the risks. It turned out that I am a completely healthy adult, extremely intelligent (99 percentile on two intelligence tests) and I have no mental or physical disabilities at all.

Killing your children based on a test that isn't always accurate is a very very dangerous road to follow. I would be dead if my mother subscribed to that point of view.

Justify my death please.

Regarding Eugenics...if that is what you want to call the triple screen test...but it is not our future, it has been done for a number of years now and as far as I know most women over 30 and almost all women over 35 get it.

[geoffrey]

I still stand behind the idea that the reasons for abortion should not be financial.

[Riverwind]

I still stand behind the idea that the reasons for abortion should not be financial.

Financial well being and emotional well being are intimately connected and cannot be seperated. Very few people have an abortion for purely monetary reasons (although that may be the reason they speak aload). The real reason is they do not emotionally able to cope with the child.

[Wilber]

Unlike other countries which have abortion laws that do support choice, Canada has none at all. There is no point at which a pregnancy cannot be legally terminated for any reason. Even though I believe it is basically a matter of conscience, I find that very disturbing.

[tml12]

Harper really needs to be honest about his views on abortion so that Canadians can quit the guess work and speculation. Too many women are turned off by the Conservatives because he refuses to come out and state his opinion on the matter. If the following is true: "A 2004 Environics poll showed that more than two-thirds of the population wants greater restrictions on abortion" ... as the poll suggests.... what are those restrictions and certainly women do not want to have their choices taken away completely? Particularly city dwelling women who have to work to support the high price of real estate and no $100 per month daycare solution is going to help that one.

We females need more female representation in government and if the CPC's want to earn more seats in the city come next election, he must confront this issue.

Sorry I forgot we to have the ability to kill our children when we can't afford them... these are the reasons that abortion should be prohibited.

Selfish greed is a ridiculous goal. There are some real reasons where I think freedom of choice could be acceptable, I'm not an anti-abortion radical. But when women choose to kill their children because they don't want the financial burden, well, that sickens me.

I'd love to see the CPC come out with a policy that requires the father's consent for an abortion to occur, as long as the father has the finacial resources to take responsibility for the child (otherwise the ma would get the choice as too many fathers would agree and then poof, be gone).

Won't happen though. Responsibility for ones actions is something thats escaped the feminist movement.

All right then all you right wing anti-abortionists. How many of you will stay home to take care of that baby, giving up your salary to do it? (please, answer the question).

The average Canadian women's salary in this country is somewhere under 20K per year. And suppose that woman already has two children to support. And suppose that woman is single (in which case her income is somewhere under 14K per year), and has one of those tax evading husbands that show as little as possible on the bottom line so as to avoid child support for the two children that she already has? Now how about the baby being diagnosed mentally handicapped. And the risk of autism which cannot be detected prior to birth, this problem is not even supported by government funding or social programs. You are all ok to have women living in poverty and take care of this child under these circumstances, while you go off to work and criticize.

I'm not saying at all that I am pro abortion for birth control. I am saying that woman deserve the right to choose and the circumstances, and her doctors advice, will help her with that choice. There are many women out there that would go through with the pregnancy if she had the support of the father, and she does not. As far as the dithering is concerned have you guys thought about that one? The guy that says ah, lets have it, then offers little or no emotional or financial support? If women are dithering, you are so quick to blame the woman !! How about the abusive husband?? She loves him, she wants to have his baby, and suddenly she finds herself pregnant and vulnerable to his violent rages. Men that are violent are often bullies, and the worst of it comes out when the woman is pregnant.

Your attitudes represent precisely why women didn't run for the CPC and why Canadian women now do not have adequate representation in parliament.

If the Canadian population wants reformed abortion policy and regulation, let's hear about it now, put it on the table, so that we can all cast our votes without speculation at the next election.

For the record, I never stated that I was anti-abortion, etc.

Abortion should be legal but not after the first month or so. I worked with a woman who had an affair and wanted to keep it a secret. Soon she found she was pregnant (about two weeks after the sexual encounter). She said she was afraid to have an abortion but I encouraged her to have one because I told her that she did not want to get into trouble with her husband.

She had one, came back, and told me the baby was like "a drop of water."

So before the first month, OK. After that, sticking needles into a baby deliberately born prematurely is vile and sinful and most certainly is murder, regardless of financial circumstances. If you takes you more than a month to decide, put the baby up for adoption...

TML,

If a woman is over 35 years of age it is recommended that she get something called a triple screen to see if she is at risk for 3 problems that can severely affect a baby's life: Spinal bifida, Trisomy and Down Syndrome. This screen test is done at about 22 weeks. If the test comes in "high risk" the doctor will often recommend amniocentesis. In order to ensure that a healthy baby is not put a risk by the amnio, it is recommended that the woman wait until at least 15 weeks, however the triple screen doesn't normally get done until 22. So then the woman goes for the amnio and has to wait another 2 weeks for results. Then if severe abnormalities are found, the woman could be faced with an abortion decision and by the time she is booked to have the procedure, she is almost 5 months pregnant.

Very scary, but those are the medical facts, and this is procedure for pregnant women over 35, which as we know, is growing to be a very high ratio of women today. Doing things any earlier in the pregnancy causes undue risk to a healthy fetus.

I have never had an abortion and would never wish it upon anybody, but having just been through this (healthy baby due in March)...I know the emotional trauma that it can cause a woman. However many of us are not fit to bring up a child who is severely handicapped, I being one of them, would have been forced with a very difficult decision.

The example of your friend is only one. There are so many cases of why abortion should or could have to be performed and to me the decision has got to be left to the individuals who are directly responsible for that child's life.

Education, information and guidance, as well as community support are all requirements of supporting a women to "choose-life"...and unfortunately with governments downsizing and programs being slashed and underfunded, this is not going to happen in a way that could possibly support all women under every circumstance.....(oh, and did I mention that 100 bucks per month daycare won't help either ?????)

Certainly if I were PM I would not make a law that would be so naive as to make a black and white law that says "abortion within first month then it's a killing."

Abortion is not a black and white issue. Certainly, there would have to be exceptions to the rule. That being said, I do think there needs to be some abortion law in this country. Inevitably, Parliament will have to make such a law. I think the law should protect a women's right to choose but also protect the life of the unborn.

I am not ready, without proper background and research, to identify what such a law should be. I know about the tests you speak of, as my mother had me at age 45. I know it is not an easy issue to deal with...

[betsy]

All right then all you right wing anti-abortionists. How many of you will stay home to take care of that baby, giving up your salary to do it? (please, answer the question).

The average Canadian women's salary in this country is somewhere under 20K per year. And suppose that woman already has two children to support. And suppose that woman is single (in which case her income is somewhere under 14K per year), and has one of those tax evading husbands that show as little as possible on the bottom line so as to avoid child support for the two children that she already has?

We've got all sorts of contraceptives to prevent pregnancies. That is the answer to all of the above.

How about this scenario? A single mom who has a child is offered a job. There's only one problem: No one can stay at home to babysit the child. What will she do? Get rid of the child?

And if she already has two kids...or four....well, there's such a thing as "tightening your belt...or living within your means." I know, for some it means living hand-to-mouth....but that's reality.

It boils down to priorities. Which is more important?

[geoffrey]

All right then all you right wing anti-abortionists. How many of you will stay home to take care of that baby, giving up your salary to do it? (please, answer the question).

The average Canadian women's salary in this country is somewhere under 20K per year. And suppose that woman already has two children to support. And suppose that woman is single (in which case her income is somewhere under 14K per year), and has one of those tax evading husbands that show as little as possible on the bottom line so as to avoid child support for the two children that she already has?

We've got all sorts of contraceptives to prevent pregnancies. That is the answer to all of the above.

How about this scenario? A single mom who has a child is offered a job. There's only one problem: No one can stay at home to babysit the child. What will she do? Get rid of the child?

And if she already has two kids...or four....well, there's such a thing as "tightening your belt...or living within your means." I know, for some it means living hand-to-mouth....but that's reality.

It boils down to priorities. Which is more important?

Well said Betsy, I completely agree. By the way, contraceptives are free in Canada, community health offices offer them free of charge.

EDIT: Plus there are tons of contraceptives that put the power into a woman's hands so they can't just blame the guy that forgot the condoms anymore.

And then to Concerned's concerns. I'm not married or have kids and not really planning on either in the near future. When that does happen though, I'd hope either I or my wife would stay home with the kids. I would be willing to sacrifice the second car, or the bigger house, or a few nights out a month in order to ensure the best upbringing my children are entitled too.

I also wouldn't have children until I was completely certain that I could financially support them.

[STEFROCKS]

TML,

If a woman is over 35 years of age it is recommended that she get something called a triple screen to see if she is at risk for 3 problems that can severely affect a baby's life: Spinal bifida, Trisomy and Down Syndrome. This screen test is done at about 22 weeks. If the test comes in "high risk" the doctor will often recommend amniocentesis. In order to ensure that a healthy baby is not put a risk by the amnio, it is recommended that the woman wait until at least 15 weeks, however the triple screen doesn't normally get done until 22. So then the woman goes for the amnio and has to wait another 2 weeks for results. Then if severe abnormalities are found, the woman could be faced with an abortion decision and by the time she is booked to have the procedure, she is almost 5 months pregnant.

Very scary, but those are the medical facts, and this is procedure for pregnant women over 35, which as we know, is growing to be a very high ratio of women today. Doing things any earlier in the pregnancy causes undue risk to a healthy fetus.

So eugenics are our future Concerned?

Any child with defects should be terminated? Why even allow parents that could pass on diseases to have children? Shouldn't we just sterilize people and save us money in the long run?

When my mother got the pre-screening test, it came back positive that I would have mental and physical problems. The doctor recommended my mother terminate her pregnancy. My family is very Catholic and anti-abortion so my mother made the responsible choice to have me even knowing the risks. It turned out that I am a completely healthy adult, extremely intelligent (99 percentile on two intelligence tests) and I have no mental or physical disabilities at all.

Killing your children based on a test that isn't always accurate is a very very dangerous road to follow. I would be dead if my mother subscribed to that point of view.

Justify my death please.

one or two questions wrong on two tests, that is pretty impressive Geoff, by the way, intelligence test's are not fully accurate about how intelligent you are, or are you just tooting your own horn Geoff, trying to think that you are... your catholic too hey, that explains everything too... I am greek orthodox myself, we do not worship the pope as you do... so I can see where all this is coming from, cause the catholic church has committed some of the worst atrocities in history in the name of God and religion, explains everything in all your comments, I suppose you think that all homosexuals should have no rights, be beaten and or killed, like all the other so called Christians out there who misread what that scripture says in the bible... so you are a neo conservative right wing catholic from Calgary... go figure

[uOttawaMan]

Really if a woman can't decide in the first two months whether or not she wants to have an abortion, then we have a problem. I used to know someone who performed abortions. He used to tell me about having to crack a baby's skull, etc because a woman spent three months dithering.

I am sorry to all those left-wing feminists out there. That is disgusting and disturbing. Legal abortion for the first month. After that, it's murder. Cracking a baby's skull is murder...

Finding out how thats actually performed was the worst thing that the pro-choice movement could allow me to do.

If you're going to tell the story, tell it all.

First they induce delivery and deliver in breach with the baby's head still inside the mother. The baby's head is held in forceps, pierced with a scalpel and a vacuum inserted to suck the baby's brain from its head. Once the doctor completes that he crushes the baby's skull and finishes the delivery with the baby obviously stillborn.

Tell me that's not the most inhumane thing one human has done to another.

That's in a deadheat with the Holocaust.

[Spike22]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy. We will supply the mother and one guest of her choice with some much needed R&R while performing the procedure outside our borders. Now lets all get jiggy and look forward to that trip south. [remember girls get knocked up late fall early winter so you can get to go south in the dead of winter]

[geoffrey]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy. We will supply the mother and one guest of her choice with some much needed R&R while performing the procedure outside our borders. Now lets all get jiggy and look forward to that trip south. [remember girls get knocked up late fall early winter so you can get to go south in the dead of winter]

Spike, spike, spike... you always take things one step too far.

[Riverwind]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy.

I think we should just send abortion opponents to Iran and to give them an opportunity to ask themselves whether they really want to live in a society where the religious views of some are imposed by the state on all.

[geoffrey]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy.

I think we should just send abortion opponents to Iran and to give them an opportunity to ask themselves whether they really want to live in a society where the religious views of some are imposed by the state on all.

Some of us do oppose it on non-relgious grounds though Spar.

[Black Dog]

And from what I heard, they sometimes do this to a close to full-term baby. The doctor who would participate in this heinous murder ought to be hanged.

This is a classic example of the twisted views of the liberal-thinkers.

And how often does this happen? I'd say never. Only one per cent of all abortions are conducted during the third trimester.

We've got all sorts of contraceptives to prevent pregnancies. That is the answer to all of the above.

Gee, who are the people who campaign vigorously against comprehensive sex ed, condoms in schools, th emorning after pill and just about every means of prevention and sex education out there? Hint: it ain't the "liberal thinkers".

[geoffrey]

Gee, who are the people who campaign vigorously against comprehensive sex ed, condoms in schools, th emorning after pill and just about every means of prevention and sex education out there? Hint: it ain't the "liberal thinkers".

You can't really blame me for the actions of others. There are lots of us conservative folk that would rather have condoms accessible to kids rather than have them getting abortions. Though any sex-ed program should include some stuff on abstaining until your at least out of junior high. Really it is in the kids best interest, other than this have sex with everyone approach they take now.

The morning after pill is a form of abortion however, thats the only one of those suggestions you posted I disagree with.

[Riverwind]

I think we should just send abortion opponents to Iran and to give them an opportunity to ask themselves whether they really want to live in a society where the religious views of some are imposed by the state on all.

Some of us do oppose it on non-relgious grounds though Spar.

Everyone has a belief of a what human life is and whether a fetus is human or not - that belief is type of a religious belief whether it is derived from a formal religion or not.

The morning after pill is a form of abortion however, thats the only one of those suggestions you posted I disagree with.

There is no rational basis to suggest a morning after pill is a form of abortion. You have a right to believe that it is just like you have a right to believe in a God of your choosing. You do not have a right to impose that belief on others.

[geoffrey]

I think we should just send abortion opponents to Iran and to give them an opportunity to ask themselves whether they really want to live in a society where the religious views of some are imposed by the state on all.

Some of us do oppose it on non-relgious grounds though Spar.

Everyone has a belief of a what human life is and whether a fetu is human or not - that belief is type of a religious belief whether it is derived from a formal religion or not.

I guess Spar, just saying that there are alot of us that don't criticise abortion on the basis of God says its wrong.

[Riverwind]

I guess Spar, just saying that there are alot of us that don't criticise abortion on the basis of God says its wrong.

So you just criticize abortion becasue <insert your appropriate belief system> says it is wrong. I don't see the difference.

[geoffrey]

I guess Spar, just saying that there are alot of us that don't criticise abortion on the basis of God says its wrong.

So you just criticize abortion becasue <insert your appropriate belief system> says it is wrong. I don't see the difference.

Well you just support abortion on the same grounds, so I don't see your point.

Are we arguing something we both are in complete agreement on?

[Riverwind]

Well you just support abortion on the same grounds, so I don't see your point.

I agree that my belief system equally ephemeral. However, I don't seek to impose my beliefs on others. I respect the right of people to choose to not get an abortion because that is what they believe is right. I expect people who oppose abortion to extend the same consideration to people who do not have any religious/moral objection to abortion.

[betsy]

Well you just support abortion on the same grounds, so I don't see your point.

I agree that my belief system equally ephemeral. However, I don't seek to impose my beliefs on others. I respect the right of people to choose to not get an abortion because that is what they believe is right. I expect people who oppose abortion to extend the same consideration to people who do not have any religious/moral objection to abortion.

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

[geoffrey]

Well you just support abortion on the same grounds, so I don't see your point.

I agree that my belief system equally ephemeral. However, I don't seek to impose my beliefs on others. I respect the right of people to choose to not get an abortion because that is what they believe is right. I expect people who oppose abortion to extend the same consideration to people who do not have any religious/moral objection to abortion.

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

Somewhat agreeing with both of you.

You can't say that we should allow murder and leave it up for people to decide what is right to them. By the same token, I don't want to see backalley abortions and babies floating down the river in garbage bags.

[Riverwind]

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

Your beliefs may tell you that a fetus is a human but you must accept that the majority of people living in this society do not share that view. If some radical shift occurred and suddenly there was an overwhelming consensus (>90%) that a fetus is human then government restrictions on abortion could be justified. However, that unlikely to happen in our diverse society so the only reasonable approach it to allow individual people to decide what is right for them and keep the government out of it.

[Hicksey]

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

Your beliefs may tell you that a fetus is a human but you must accept that the majority of people living in this society do not share that view. If some radical shift occurred and suddenly there was an overwhelming consensus (>90%) that a fetus is human then government restrictions on abortion could be justified. However, that unlikely to happen in our diverse society so the only reasonable approach it to allow individual people to decide what is right for them and keep the government out of it.

Let me figure this out.

They're created by humans. They grow over 9 months and come out of the mother human.

But apparently alien.

[sarcasm]This makes all kinds of sense.[/sarcasm]

[geoffrey]

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

Your beliefs may tell you that a fetus is a human but you must accept that the majority of people living in this society do not share that view. If some radical shift occurred and suddenly there was an overwhelming consensus (>90%) that a fetus is human then government restrictions on abortion could be justified. However, that unlikely to happen in our diverse society so the only reasonable approach it to allow individual people to decide what is right for them and keep the government out of it.

Sparhawk, you know just because the majority believes it doesn't make it right.

A majority of Canadians believe in capital punishment, but its not law. Traditional marriage in some polls had a slight majority too.

If you follow the populist democrat idea, you got to follow it all the time, not only when the majorities support your viewpoint.