Regarding Iran

[betsy]

Well now that we all agree that Iran needs to be stopped...

Who the hell has the troops or the political mandate to invade a country that would have a very organized resistance.

This isn't Iraq, this is a real deal highly trained and well equipped army. The casulties would be in the tens of thousands on our side. While I see this as neccessary....

The bleeding-heart Liberals will be in opposition once Canada's army reaches a few hundred dead.

This could be an undoing of Harper if he commits alot of troops to such an invasion and it turns out very poorly for Canada over there.

You won't have to worry, America has the strength to invade Iran and this is what concerns me. If it were back in the WWII days, no problem, we win. But these days, we have to bring along our imbeded television crews to feed the media their life energy and if we so much as give a splinter to an enemy soldier dressed as a civilian, our asses are grass. I see it going something like this: Iran purchases enriched uranium from the Soviets. They make some power plants and wouldn't you guess this stuff makes great bombs too! Knowing they can have that kind of power, even if only to protect themselves from an assault, they make the bombs quietly while the U.N. take 12 years to come to a decision ( again ) and now we have another nuclear threat to deal with. So America invades, with smaller forces from the U.K., Canada, Japan, etc. backing them up. We cant bomb, that kills people. Wer cant assassinate, that's illegal. We can't wipe our asses with toilet paper containing arabic print because thats racist. We're screwed. After a few thousand deaths to our brave marines and a few more terrorists hit the U.S., we withdraw, leaving the Iranian people to govern Iran, and now we have one more country determined they can beat us and far fewer soldiers to defend us. Noone wants my suggestion at this pint but I'll slip one in here anyways. Leave them alone. Theyre not hurting anyone. Ifg they launch their one nuke, they can't hit anyone but maybe Israel that's of alliance to us. If they hit Israel theyre gone, like they never existed. Otherwise, we can introduce different, efficient ways to produce electricity that wouldn't counter as bombs. I really fear a war with Iran, they are a capable society, much more structured than Iraq, and if we attack them we might have to fend off Syria at the same time, as well as dealing with the current forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. If any of you have access to a map of the middle east, note the nice straight line these countries create, include pakistan whom we've had words with over the travel of terrorists and you'll see what we may be dealing with soon here.

It is really scary, not to mention dealing with the terrorists already imbedded in various countries all over the world. At a drop of a hat, we could all be facing hostilities, incoming and from within.

But then again...when you're talking of a fundamental fanaticism fueled by fervent, burning religious belief that seek to annihilate all those who do not share the same conviction, it's also damned if we don't act.

Maybe it's for the good that all these tensions (including cartoon-related violence) boil over....if that's what it takes to show a glimpse...of what we could really be dealing with here in the not so distant future.

As a woman, I surely don't wish to be under any rule that will reduce me to a chattel or any sharia law....if I am allowed to live at all.

[STEFROCKS]

Well now that we all agree that Iran needs to be stopped...

Who the hell has the troops or the political mandate to invade a country that would have a very organized resistance.

This isn't Iraq, this is a real deal highly trained and well equipped army. The casulties would be in the tens of thousands on our side. While I see this as neccessary....

The bleeding-heart Liberals will be in opposition once Canada's army reaches a few hundred dead.

This could be an undoing of Harper if he commits alot of troops to such an invasion and it turns out very poorly for Canada over there.

Bleeding heart liberals? yeah coming from a neo con that is a compliment, at least us bleeding heart liberals care about other people and injustices... what do you care about Geoff? Money? making sure you get your own, who cares about human rights abuses, right Geoff, just as long as you and yours gets what you wanted, the Iranian's are people as well, and they have the right to have nuclear energy as well as France, Britan, the U.S, China, Russian, and Canada, I do not see the U.S. calmoring to fight China or North Korea, and they both pose bigger threats, but pick on little Iran, because the U.S. says they are not allowed nuclear energy or capablility, give me a break... Iran is not the only country that wants to wipe Israel off the map, Syria does as well, and so does Egypt, Lebannon, Libya, Jordan, the president of Iran was just stupid enough to say it in public, they are not the only country that would like to see Israel off the map, and why should Israel have nuclear weapons? Why cause the U.S. says so, give me a break... but of course, you probably love that administration and country as so good and just, whatever... you just hate Iran, cause they do not fit in with your beliefs on how a country should be, do you actually think that the U.S. democracy is so great, and what right does the United States have to dictate to countries on how to run their governments and what right do they have to control who has nuclear energy, they do not, but you do not see that cause you are blind to the propaganda being produced, your just a sheep, like all the other neo conservatives out there, especially where the conservative party is concerned.

Going to war with Iran is pointless, why, so more men and women can die needlessly, for the U.S. and THEIR way of democracy, they put saddam hussein in power for crying out loud, but of course you do not see that, cause you are a redneck from Calgary.

[geoffrey]

Well now that we all agree that Iran needs to be stopped...

Who the hell has the troops or the political mandate to invade a country that would have a very organized resistance.

This isn't Iraq, this is a real deal highly trained and well equipped army. The casulties would be in the tens of thousands on our side. While I see this as neccessary....

The bleeding-heart Liberals will be in opposition once Canada's army reaches a few hundred dead.

This could be an undoing of Harper if he commits alot of troops to such an invasion and it turns out very poorly for Canada over there.

Bleeding heart liberals? yeah coming from a neo con that is a compliment, at least us bleeding heart liberals care about other people and injustices... what do you care about Geoff? Money? making sure you get your own, who cares about human rights abuses, right Geoff, just as long as you and yours gets what you wanted, the Iranian's are people as well, and they have the right to have nuclear energy as well as France, Britan, the U.S, China, Russian, and Canada, I do not see the U.S. calmoring to fight China or North Korea, and they both pose bigger threats, but pick on little Iran, because the U.S. says they are not allowed nuclear energy or capablility, give me a break... Iran is not the only country that wants to wipe Israel off the map, Syria does as well, and so does Egypt, Lebannon, Libya, Jordan, the president of Iran was just stupid enough to say it in public, they are not the only country that would like to see Israel off the map, and why should Israel have nuclear weapons? Why cause the U.S. says so, give me a break... but of course, you probably love that administration and country as so good and just, whatever... you just hate Iran, cause they do not fit in with your beliefs on how a country should be, do you actually think that the U.S. democracy is so great, and what right does the United States have to dictate to countries on how to run their governments and what right do they have to control who has nuclear energy, they do not, but you do not see that cause you are blind to the propaganda being produced, your just a sheep, like all the other neo conservatives out there, especially where the conservative party is concerned.

Going to war with Iran is pointless, why, so more men and women can die needlessly, for the U.S. and THEIR way of democracy, they put saddam hussein in power for crying out loud, but of course you do not see that, cause you are a redneck from Calgary.

Again, my views are invalid because I'm from Calgary.

I'm not a neocon, I say it again, do some research and learn a little bit stef.

If you actually think Iran has a good, reasonable system of government, I encourage you to go live there for a bit. Express your freedom. I can tell you we won't see you back.

Nuclear proliferation is illegal under international law. Iran is in defiance of the UN and law. It's our obligation in the eyes of keeping the UN somewhat effective to remove nuclear power from Iran.

[August1991]

This thread should be in the international section. Although, maybe not, given the following.

I believe Iran is using Canadian technology to produce its weapons-grade uranium:

Iranian Vice President Gholamreza Aghazadeh said in a May 6 speech during the NPT conference that Iran will be building Canada Deuterium Uranium (CANDU)-type heavy-water nuclear reactors, but he said their construction would not be a proliferation concern because they would operate under IAEA safeguards.

A State Department official said in a May 28 interview that heavy-water reactors pose a greater proliferation risk than light-water reactors because it is easier to reprocess weapons-grade plutonium from the spent fuel. Additionally, CANDU reactors use natural uranium for nuclear fuel, which allows countries to bypass the uranium-enrichment stage and use indigenous uranium, the official said. The use of natural uranium can also potentially complicate efforts to monitor the diversion of nuclear fuel, he added.

Arms Control Association

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

----

There is no doubt that Canada assisted India directly (and inadvertently) in acquiring the atomic bomb:

On May 18, 1974, India detonates a 12-kiloton nuclear explosive in the Rajasthan desert. It was built using plutonium from a research reactor donated by Canada in 1956. The explosion prompts fierce criticism of Canada's nuclear exports, and a wall of excuses from officials in both Canada and India. Canadian officials say they couldn't stop it. India denies it was even a bomb.

CBC

[geoffrey]

Canada is one of the leading producers of Uranium in the world. And our reactors are stationed in many 3rd world nations.

Locations of CANDU reactors:

Canada - 16 (+2 refurbishing, +6 decommissioned)

South Korea - 4

China - 2

India - 2

Argentina - 1

Romania - 1

Pakistan - 1

There should be serious concerns about our involvement in proliferation.

[betsy]

Going to war with Iran is pointless, why, so more men and women can die needlessly, for the U.S. and THEIR way of democracy, they put saddam hussein in power for crying out loud, but of course you do not see that, cause you are a redneck from Calgary.

I don't care about Iran's democracy!

The concern is about their capability of wiping out another country. With their fundamentalist fanaticism that takes to heart the belief of "death to all infidels", and their loathing for our way of life, they are a great threat to us...whether they've got democracy or not!

[jafridi]

Its an unfortunate fact of life that in the turbulent unipolar world of today Nukes constitutre the Ultimate Life Insurance. Israel, India, Pakistan have crossed the threshold in order to secure their existance. Iran is probably doing the same in order to survive.

There is nothing inherently sinister or diabolical about Nuclear weapons. No nation in its right mind (or even in wrong mind) cannot dare to actually use it. In a way Nukes are the ultimate guarantors of peaceful coexistance on this fragile planet.

The US bears at least some responsibility towards promoting the pro-nuke mindset. For too long it has been behaving like a mentally deranged trigger happy bully; threatning all and sundry; everywhere all the time. The slightest dissent could be punishable with death. Recently it has authorized itself to launch a first strike on any corner of the world; Ottawa, Toronto being no exceptions!.

[August1991]

The US bears at least some responsibility towards promoting the pro-nuke mindset. For too long it has been behaving like a mentally deranged trigger happy bully; threatning all and sundry; everywhere all the time. The slightest dissent could be punishable with death. Recently it has authorized itself to launch a first strike on any corner of the world; Ottawa, Toronto being no exceptions!.

The US is a functioning democracy. Iran is not.

In three years, the US will have a new president who meets the criteria of millions of people. Iran will have a president who meets the criteria of a small group of fundamentalist religious fanatics.

[fixer1]

We will never stop countries who want to eneter the nuclear club from doing so. No attacks by foreign powers will deter places like Iran from going after nuclear weapons. But those attacks will give a sense of just to any retalliation for such attacks.

Many here are making much about the fact that many Muslim countries do not recognise Isreal as a true country of the Jews. But we all conveniently forget that it has just been about 60 years or so that Isreal was formed, and it was taken from the Muslims by the British and given to the Jews for a homeland. Before this there was no homland for the jewish people. So it should not be all that hard to remember that was not all that long ago, and yes many people will have lots of feelings that are still rasw in all of this. So to hear about taking isreal off the face of the map is not something they are saying that has been here for that long. I am not saying it is right, but you must also remeber the reason why there are so many people with such stron g feelings. It would be like some one who has power, to come to the USA and say that everyting west of the Mississippi is now the country of those who worship idols and many gods different from our own, because they need a homeland, and so we are taking your to give to them. ow well would that be taken .

Now I am not trying to justify the feelings but rather expalin why and where some of the statements have come from. It is not that they all are nuts but rather they all have been wronged in one way or another just to the benefit of one religious group.

I still say that if Iran does develope the bomb they will soon find out that it is not in the use that it gives power but in the unsaid threat to use it, that gives you power. If you ever do use it, then you and all your kind will perish, and they know that. The fact that they have it will then say to them, never again will their homelands be taken and given to someone else. I believe this is the driving force behind all this anger and protective lifestyles, that most of these people have. If they knew that the world would never again do what they did to create Isreal, I am pretty sure they would be more aimiable to sitting down and working things out. So just remeber what many here are calling crazy and nuts, are doing so not understanding why it has come down to all of this.

[Spike22]

FOR SALE: Glass parking lot available in former Iran. May contain some background nuclear radiation. For more details please call Pres G. Bush, white house.

[August1991]

We will never stop countries who want to eneter the nuclear club from doing so. No attacks by foreign powers will deter places like Iran from going after nuclear weapons. But those attacks will give a sense of just to any retalliation for such attacks.

Iraq was stopped from developing nuclear weapons in the early 1980s.

[Spike22]

Not totally...

[Black Dog]

Its an unfortunate fact of life that in the turbulent unipolar world of today Nukes constitutre the Ultimate Life Insurance. Israel, India, Pakistan have crossed the threshold in order to secure their existance. Iran is probably doing the same in order to survive.

There is nothing inherently sinister or diabolical about Nuclear weapons. No nation in its right mind (or even in wrong mind) cannot dare to actually use it. In a way Nukes are the ultimate guarantors of peaceful coexistance on this fragile planet.

That's an excellent point: the deterrent power of nuclear weapons is usually lost among the fearmongering. But from Iran's perspective, surrounded as they are by enemies and seeing the examples of Iraq and North Korea, nukes are the ultimate life insurance policy. As for the rhetoric of "wiping Israel" off the map and other such toughtalk, I'm convinced this is partially playing to the home crowd and partially to show to outside world they mean business. But at the end of the day, the Iranian mullahs aren't reckless and they aren't suicidal: they've hung on this long against growing domestic discontent and external threats and tehy aren't about to throw it all away.

[betsy]

But at the end of the day, the Iranian mullahs aren't reckless and they aren't suicidal: they've hung on this long against growing domestic discontent and external threats and tehy aren't about to throw it all away.

Promised paradise awaits suicide bombers in the afterlife....at least, that's what they believe. Mullahs are just human too. Who knows, the welcoming arms of a dozen nubile virgins in paradise might prove too much for them to resist...that at the end of the day, they'll just opt to end growing domestic discontent and external threats once and for all.

[geoffrey]

Going to war with Iran is pointless, why, so more men and women can die needlessly, for the U.S. and THEIR way of democracy, they put saddam hussein in power for crying out loud, but of course you do not see that, cause you are a redneck from Calgary.

I don't care about Iran's democracy!

The concern is about their capability of wiping out another country. With their fundamentalist fanaticism that takes to heart the belief of "death to all infidels", and their loathing for our way of life, they are a great threat to us...whether they've got democracy or not!

Agreed Betsy.

And in this case, it wouldn't be an 'illegal war' like so many want to try to form Iraq into!

Defense of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty is legal, and I'd say its our moral obligation to the people of that region to enforce the treaty.

[Black Dog]

Promised paradise awaits suicide bombers in the afterlife....at least, that's what they believe. Mullahs are just human too. Who knows, the welcoming arms of a dozen nubile virgins in paradise might prove too much for them to resist...that at the end of the day, they'll just opt to end growing domestic discontent and external threats once and for all.

There's no consensus within the Islamic world on suicide attacks, so there's no justification for ascribing the motivations of individuals in places like Palestine or Iraq to an entire nation. (Also worth noting: this Janary, one of Shia Islam's highest ranking marja clerics, the Iranian Ayatollah al-Udhma Yousof al-Sanei, decreed a fatwa against suicide bombing, declaring it as a "terrorist act".)

Thus, I don't buy the anysis that, since some Mulsims beleive in suicide bombings, Iran will be willing to commit a suicide attack on a national scale. No. The ayatollahs want power, they want to hold on to it in the here and now, and they will cling to it to their last breath and do nothing to hasten the day they draw it.

[geoffrey]

There's no consensus within the Islamic world on suicide attacks, so there's no justification for ascribing the motivations of individuals in places like Palestine or Iraq to an entire nation. (Also worth noting: this Janary, one of Shia Islam's highest ranking marja clerics, the Iranian Ayatollah al-Udhma Yousof al-Sanei, decreed a fatwa against suicide bombing, declaring it as a "terrorist act".)

And how many others encourage these acts. Islam is becoming more extreme by the day, not improving in a peaceful way.

Thus, I don't buy the anysis that, since some Mulsims beleive in suicide bombings, Iran will be willing to commit a suicide attack on a national scale. No. The ayatollahs want power, they want to hold on to it in the here and now, and they will cling to it to their last breath and do nothing to hasten the day they draw it.

There won't be a suicide attack on a national scale. But an invasion of Iraq or something could occur, and then when the US leaps to the call, Iran uses nuclear weapons against them locally. The US would not retaliate with nuclear weapons because their hands are tied, remember, people can kill Americans but not vice versa in war, at least thats what the MSM tells me.

It'd be an ass kicking to Iran if they attempted to be aggressive, but Iran is the only nation there that could actually use their nukes.

Unless Israel got pissed and wiped the Middle-East right off the map in retaliation, which is highly likely with all the kooks over there to.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

The ayatollahs want power, they want to hold on to it in the here and now, and they will cling to it to their last breath and do nothing to hasten the day they draw it.

I am inclined to agree. Saddam was found hiding in a hole with a suitcase full of cash, and not with a cummerbund full of dynamite.

geoffrey,

Unless Israel got pissed and wiped the Middle-East right off the map in retaliation, which is highly likely with all the kooks over there to.

Evidently, Israel has threatened to do this in the past, according to the book "The Samson Option" by Seymour Hersch. Actually, it is a pretty good threat. "Don't attack me or I'll kill us all."

[Black Dog]

And how many others encourage these acts. Islam is becoming more extreme by the day, not improving in a peaceful way.

And? That's still not a case for the idea that Iran will up and catty out a large-scale "martyrdom operation". And here's something elese to consider: the dynamic of suicide biombings. Ever notice how the one's preaching and promoting martyrdom are seldom the one's who carrry out the acts? There's a reason for that: you can't control others if you're dead.

There won't be a suicide attack on a national scale. But an invasion of Iraq or something could occur, and then when the US leaps to the call, Iran uses nuclear weapons against them locally. The US would not retaliate with nuclear weapons because their hands are tied, remember, people can kill Americans but not vice versa in war, at least thats what the MSM tells me.

Now you're getting into Dean Koontz/Tom Clancy territory. Hypotheticals like this aren't worth addressing.

[August1991]

That's an excellent point: the deterrent power of nuclear weapons is usually lost among the fearmongering. But from Iran's perspective, surrounded as they are by enemies and seeing the examples of Iraq and North Korea, nukes are the ultimate life insurance policy. As for the rhetoric of "wiping Israel" off the map and other such toughtalk, I'm convinced this is partially playing to the home crowd and partially to show to outside world they mean business. But at the end of the day, the Iranian mullahs aren't reckless and they aren't suicidal: they've hung on this long against growing domestic discontent and external threats and tehy aren't about to throw it all away.

Going to the gym alot and being a big guy is a deterrent too. For a deterrent to work, the threat must be credible. And for it to be credible, well, I'm sure there are many people who say afterwards - if they lived - that "I didn't mean it to go that far... "

I still think that the Israelis will keep this in the hypothetical realm. Any conspiracy theorists out there who want to believe the Israelis are behind this cartoon caper? I mean, western public opinion would not be averse if an Iranian nuclear research centre were rendered inactive.

[August1991]

There's no consensus within the Islamic world on suicide attacks, so there's no justification for ascribing the motivations of individuals in places like Palestine or Iraq to an entire nation. (Also worth noting: this Janary, one of Shia Islam's highest ranking marja clerics, the Iranian Ayatollah al-Udhma Yousof al-Sanei, decreed a fatwa against suicide bombing, declaring it as a "terrorist act".)

Mariam Farhat, elected to the Palestinian parliament as a Hamas deputy, is the mother of three "martyrs".

[Black Dog]

Going to the gym alot and being a big guy is a deterrent too. For a deterrent to work, the threat must be credible. And for it to be credible, well, I'm sure there are many people who say afterwards - if they lived - that "I didn't mean it to go that far... "

nonsense. The Soviet union was a threat that turne doput to be a paper tiger, albeit one that still possessed the power to end the world. Iran doesn't have to deter the U.S. or Israel on that grand a scale: they only need to posess enoguh strength to make any interference a costly proposition.

I still think that the Israelis will keep this in the hypothetical realm. Any conspiracy theorists out there who want to believe the Israelis are behind this cartoon caper? I mean, western public opinion would not be averse if an Iranian nuclear research centre were rendered inactive.

Which of course, won't end Iran's nuclear asprirations, but will succeed in snuffing out the doemstic opposition to clerical rule in Iran, stir up more trouble in Iraq than the U.S is probably able to handle (Motqada al-Sadr just visited Iran and pledged the Mahadi Army will retaliate for any attacks on Iran), not to mention what it would do to oil prices and the Muslim street (if you thought the cartoon flap was bad...). It looks to me like Iran is holding some pretty high cards.

Mariam Farhat, elected to the Palestinian parliament as a Hamas deputy, is the mother of three "martyrs".

And this has what to do with Iran?

[August1991]

Iran doesn't have to deter the U.S. or Israel on that grand a scale: they only need to posess enoguh strength to make any interference a costly proposition.

The threat has to be credible, and to be credible, one has to be willing to go to the edge. At the edge, it is easy to fall off or go too far.

Mariam Farhat, elected to the Palestinian parliament as a Hamas deputy, is the mother of three "martyrs".

And this has what to do with Iran?

You mentioned Palestine and suicide bombings. I'll agree that there is no apparent Islamic consensus on suicide bombings although the civilized people I have met, Muslim or otherwise, condemn it.

Too often, it seems, it is the young, weak or even infirm, the "oppressed" of this world, who are pressured into dying as "martyrs".

[Black Dog]

The threat has to be credible, and to be credible, one has to be willing to go to the edge. At the edge, it is easy to fall off or go too far.

We just had a Cold War where no one "went over the edge" (though they came close once). Nuclear deterrents are not threats in the way you are thinking: they don't need to be waved in people's faces.

Too often, it seems, it is the young, weak or even infirm, the "oppressed" of this world, who are pressured into dying as "martyrs".

In other words people with nothing tolose. The mullahs and elite of Iran are not in that category.