Canada's wealthiest province utterly rejects the left

[justcrowing]

I think one of the big stories of this election was Alberta's utter rejection of leftist policies.

Apart from the 26% who utterly rejected rightist policies, anyway. You know, those ones that now have absolutely no local representation in parliament. The ones that the reformers, if they were actually interested in fair representation, would be outraged about.... but not a peep out of them. Funny that.

So now the shoe is on the other foot. Not a peep when previously there was no local Western representation in Parliament. Were the Liberals interested in fair representation or even outraged about it - Funny that!!

[Boru]

I think one of the big stories of this election was Alberta's utter rejection of leftist policies.

Apart from the 26% who utterly rejected rightist policies, anyway. You know, those ones that now have absolutely no local representation in parliament. The ones that the reformers, if they were actually interested in fair representation, would be outraged about.... but not a peep out of them. Funny that.

So now the shoe is on the other foot. Not a peep when previously there was no local Western representation in Parliament. Were the Liberals interested in fair representation or even outraged about it - Funny that!!

Mulroney rejected fair representation as much as any government that has taken power.

Funny you don't mention that though.

[justcrowing]

I think one of the big stories of this election was Alberta's utter rejection of leftist policies.

Apart from the 26% who utterly rejected rightist policies, anyway. You know, those ones that now have absolutely no local representation in parliament. The ones that the reformers, if they were actually interested in fair representation, would be outraged about.... but not a peep out of them. Funny that.

So now the shoe is on the other foot. Not a peep when previously there was no local Western representation in Parliament. Were the Liberals interested in fair representation or even outraged about it - Funny that!!

Mulroney rejected fair representation as much as any government that has taken power.

Funny you don't mention that though.

That was then and this is now.

[newbie]

I think one of the big stories of this election was Alberta's utter rejection of leftist policies.

Apart from the 26% who utterly rejected rightist policies, anyway. You know, those ones that now have absolutely no local representation in parliament. The ones that the reformers, if they were actually interested in fair representation, would be outraged about.... but not a peep out of them. Funny that.

So now the shoe is on the other foot. Not a peep when previously there was no local Western representation in Parliament. Were the Liberals interested in fair representation or even outraged about it - Funny that!!

Best check your facts on that one. We had plenty of cons in the last election from Alberta.

[Hicksey]

Any regime that takes more in taxes from a family than they pay for food, shelter, clothing and transportation combined is definately a socialist regime.

Well that's an interesting comment but I certainly haven't seen the math on that one. (You were referring to the Liberal government) What is your source of information for this statement ?

Considering half our income is paid to taxation every year, we know they take an amount nearly equal to it. Tax Freedom Day in 2005 was June 25th. That means we worked 6 months minus 5 days just to pay our tax bill. That's assuming all our income went to paying taxes.

And considering that people buy extras that they don't need and are not on the list provided above I'd say its a pretty safe bet that we are taxed more than we pay on those items.

[A Hermit]

Considering half our income is paid to taxation every year, we know they take an amount nearly equal to it. Tax Freedom Day in 2005 was June 25th. That means we worked 6 months minus 5 days just to pay our tax bill. That's assuming all our income went to paying taxes.

Truth about "Tax Freedom Day"

Also HERE

"The institute is clearly trying to incite Canadians to anger, to encourage them to join with members of the financial elite in a kind of collective tax rage. With their taxes, Canadian citizens buy their most valued goods and services: high-quality public schools, world-class universities, excellent medical services, public parks and libraries, safe streets, and livable cities,'' concluded Brooks, a taxation specialist at Osgoode. "Even if it were useful to inform Canadians how many days they had to work in order to earn enough to pay their taxes, the information the Fraser Institute presents about the tax system is flawed, misleading, seriously distorts public knowledge, and hinders rational debate about the tax system.'

And HERE

I saw a copy of the Citizen today that lamented how Tax Freedom Day is a day later than it was last year. I hate the concept of Tax Freedom Day. It's a great little headline, but it really misconstrues what taxes are about (i.e. paying for stuff we use). The Fraser Institute, which is the group that puts this out every year, says that you shouldn't consider what you get for taxes because that's not what the study is about. But the problem is that if you read the study, it's all about how we pay to much tax and how before June 28, you're "working for the government". Now tell me, what do you think they're trying to say?

But let's look at the figure. According to their numbers, the average tax bill per family is $31,652.

According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a family of four would spend $15,356 worth of services for Health Care.

A study by the Government of Alberta pegs the average cost of education for two students at $13,668 per year.

If you drive (which most do), you need to pay your share of road maintenance. According to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities tack on another $800.

That leaves $1,828 of taxes, which would mean that Tax Freedom Day would fall on January 10, or just about the time I get over my New Year's hangover. Of course, that's ignoring little things like national defence, policing, garbage collection, and other services we couldn't live without.

Not only is the whole concept misleading but the Fraser Institute (a biased "think tank" funded by corporate-welfare) fakes the numbers.

Pardon me for not being outraged about "Tax Freedom Day". It's a hoax.

[geoffrey]

Considering half our income is paid to taxation every year, we know they take an amount nearly equal to it. Tax Freedom Day in 2005 was June 25th. That means we worked 6 months minus 5 days just to pay our tax bill. That's assuming all our income went to paying taxes.

Truth about "Tax Freedom Day"

Also HERE

"The institute is clearly trying to incite Canadians to anger, to encourage them to join with members of the financial elite in a kind of collective tax rage. With their taxes, Canadian citizens buy their most valued goods and services: high-quality public schools, world-class universities, excellent medical services, public parks and libraries, safe streets, and livable cities,'' concluded Brooks, a taxation specialist at Osgoode. "Even if it were useful to inform Canadians how many days they had to work in order to earn enough to pay their taxes, the information the Fraser Institute presents about the tax system is flawed, misleading, seriously distorts public knowledge, and hinders rational debate about the tax system.'

And HERE

I saw a copy of the Citizen today that lamented how Tax Freedom Day is a day later than it was last year. I hate the concept of Tax Freedom Day. It's a great little headline, but it really misconstrues what taxes are about (i.e. paying for stuff we use). The Fraser Institute, which is the group that puts this out every year, says that you shouldn't consider what you get for taxes because that's not what the study is about. But the problem is that if you read the study, it's all about how we pay to much tax and how before June 28, you're "working for the government". Now tell me, what do you think they're trying to say?

But let's look at the figure. According to their numbers, the average tax bill per family is $31,652.

According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a family of four would spend $15,356 worth of services for Health Care.

A study by the Government of Alberta pegs the average cost of education for two students at $13,668 per year.

If you drive (which most do), you need to pay your share of road maintenance. According to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities tack on another $800.

That leaves $1,828 of taxes, which would mean that Tax Freedom Day would fall on January 10, or just about the time I get over my New Year's hangover. Of course, that's ignoring little things like national defence, policing, garbage collection, and other services we couldn't live without.

Not only is the whole concept misleading but the Fraser Institute (a biased "think tank" funded by corporate-welfare) fakes the numbers.

Pardon me for not being outraged about "Tax Freedom Day". It's a hoax.

There is no 'faking' the numbers. $15,000 a year in health care is ridiculous consideirng I can get private care in the states for about $500 a month ($6000/year) for a family including EVERYTHING, not just what the government decides to cover that month. So lets cut that.

Education costing that much is another scary thought. Private schools cost just a little higher than that in my area. Cut that.

So we can get higher quality, more efficient services by paying less? Someone want to tell me why this is so hard for Canadians to understand and persue?

[Hicksey]

I saw a copy of the Citizen today that lamented how Tax Freedom Day is a day later than it was last year. I hate the concept of Tax Freedom Day. It's a great little headline, but it really misconstrues what taxes are about (i.e. paying for stuff we use). The Fraser Institute, which is the group that puts this out every year, says that you shouldn't consider what you get for taxes because that's not what the study is about. But the problem is that if you read the study, it's all about how we pay to much tax and how before June 28, you're "working for the government". Now tell me, what do you think they're trying to say?

But let's look at the figure. According to their numbers, the average tax bill per family is $31,652.

According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a family of four would spend $15,356 worth of services for Health Care.

A study by the Government of Alberta pegs the average cost of education for two students at $13,668 per year.

If you drive (which most do), you need to pay your share of road maintenance. According to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities tack on another $800.

That leaves $1,828 of taxes, which would mean that Tax Freedom Day would fall on January 10, or just about the time I get over my New Year's hangover. Of course, that's ignoring little things like national defence, policing, garbage collection, and other services we couldn't live without.

Not only is the whole concept misleading but the Fraser Institute (a biased "think tank" funded by corporate-welfare) fakes the numbers.

Pardon me for not being outraged about "Tax Freedom Day". It's a hoax.

I wouldn't be outraged if we got $15,356 worth of health care each year. But watching my mother wait 12 weeks past when her doctor reccommended she start chemo for a spot at the cancer clinic to open up, and as a direct result see her cancer spread further requiring further surgery. That's not fifteen thousand dollars of health care.

I wouldn't be outraged if every time I took my kids to the hospital for care that I missed a day of work because waiting times are that long. It would be nice to be able to just go to the doctor, but waiting 3-5 weeks to see a doctor in the office just doesn't cut it. And now we're starting to get user fees on top of that fifteen thousand. We're paying to be neglected until our health really gets bad at which time they'll get to us before we die if we're really lucky. My mother was lucky, but not my mother in law. We got to see her neglected and doctors took so long it got to the point where she could no longer be helped and we got to watch her wither away and die before our eyes.

We pay for much better health care than that. For fiften thousand a year I can buy better health insurance is the US than that and go to hospitals that guarantee that I am treated as quickly as my doctor recommends. Not as fast as a finite budget allows.

[Wilber]

I agree. It's not what we spend on health care, it's what we get for our money compared to other countries. We rate as one of the biggest per capita spenders but are well down the list when it comes to delivery. And that is not according to the Fraser Institute.

[crazymf]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

[Hicksey]

I agree. It's not what we spend on health care, it's what we get for our money compared to other countries. We rate as one of the biggest per capita spenders but are well down the list when it comes to delivery. And that is not according to the Fraser Institute.

We need some sort of transparency bill where our government is responsible to report to us how much of the allotted money in their budgets actually made it to the intended purpose, how much was lost to bureaucracy, the resulting efficiency of the funding, how well it stands up against set targets for efficiency, and what their target and plan for hitting their target for the next year is.

The amount of taxation in this country compared to what we get for it is an absolute abomination. We need someone to really stand up for Canada and start standing up for Canadians' interests. This is not a partisan comment because I used the conservative slogan. We all benefit from such accountability. It's really irrelevant who delivers it, but so badly needed.

[tml12]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

That hurts crazymf... ...it is not my fault I live in the province with the highest debt, the least efficient government (provincially), and on an island that continuously elects Liberal and Bloc (left-wing) MPs.

And unfortunately I can't drive to Alberta to shop without sales tax like BC residents do.

[Hicksey]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

That hurts crazymf... ...it is not my fault I live in the province with the highest debt, the least efficient government (provincially), and on an island that continuously elects Liberal and Bloc (left-wing) MPs.

And unfortunately I can't drive to Alberta to shop without sales tax like BC residents do.

It could be worse. You could have Flip-Flop McFly and his merry band of NitWits running your province. The man who promised not to raise taxes hasn't found a new tax he didn't like yet. And when he thinks it may not be politically correct to tax something he merely downloads it to the municipalities.

[tml12]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

That hurts crazymf... ...it is not my fault I live in the province with the highest debt, the least efficient government (provincially), and on an island that continuously elects Liberal and Bloc (left-wing) MPs.

And unfortunately I can't drive to Alberta to shop without sales tax like BC residents do.

It could be worse. You could have Flip-Flop McFly and his merry band of NitWits running your province. The man who promised not to raise taxes hasn't found a new tax he didn't like yet. And when he thinks it may not be politically correct to tax something he merely downloads it to the municipalities.

For sure I think Dalton McGuinty is scum. I didn't pay much attention to him until the Shriner's Hospital incident when he denied he allowed the Ontario Health Ministry to fund a video claiming Montreal wasn't a safe city because of its "supposedly" toxic waste yards... :angry:

[sage]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Note to the Rest of Canada: Keep spending money you don't have on health care, education, unions and civil servants, welfare programs, pensions; sooner or later your children will pay for it.

It's not that I'm against social spending in general, but you have to be able to afford these programs in the first place.

[tml12]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Note to the Rest of Canada: Keep spending money you don't have on health care, education, unions and civil servants, welfare programs, pensions; sooner or later your children will pay for it.

It's not that I'm against social spending in general, but you have to be able to afford these programs in the first place.

Well said Sage!

[Hicksey]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Note to the Rest of Canada: Keep spending money you don't have on health care, education, unions and civil servants, welfare programs, pensions; sooner or later your children will pay for it.

It's not that I'm against social spending in general, but you have to be able to afford these programs in the first place.

I think you nailed it.

And that's the dirty little secret that underlies all the broken promises: we can't afford them. That's why they keep getting broken.

We could throw the whole surplus into health care every year and never produce the system we were promised. And that's not to mention how badly infrastructure is underfunded.

Don't get me wrong, social programs aren't all bad. But they should come after basic needs like healthcare, infrastructure, etc ...

[Black Dog]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Naw. I'm an Albertan and this province's obession with wealth, the hypocrisy ("We hate government hand outs! Where's my rebate cheque?") and me-first attitude of so many of its residents, as well as the self-serving mythologizing like the kind shown on this thread, makes my stomach churn.

For example: the ridiculous notion that Albertans reject socialism, when it is socialism, pure and simple, that makes this province wealthy.

[Hicksey]

Ironically the people complaining about Alberta's right-wing politics are lefty's, hanging out in the debt ridden East.

Naw. I'm an Albertan and this province's obession with wealth, the hypocrisy ("We hate government hand outs! Where's my rebate cheque?") and me-first attitude of so many of its residents, as well as the self-serving mythologizing like the kind shown on this thread, makes my stomach churn.

For example: the ridiculous notion that Albertans reject socialism, when it is socialism, pure and simple, that makes this province wealthy.

I think its a combination of the plentiful resources from their oil fields, good management of the revenues produced, and balancing the public need for social programs.

They consistently stop short of socialism, unlike most other problems. Its one thing to fill a widespread need and still another to try to be everything to everyone.

I'll give anyone that they have more resources to manage which is easier, but if they others were better at it they wouldn't be as badly off as they are now.

[Black Dog]

I think its a combination of the plentiful resources from their oil fields, good management of the revenues produced, and balancing the public need for social programs.

They consistently stop short of socialism, unlike most other problems. Its one thing to fill a widespread need and still another to try to be everything to everyone.

I'll give anyone that they have more resources to manage which is easier, but if they others were better at it they wouldn't be as badly off as they are now.

Alberta's resource riches (which account for fully 1/3 of its revenues) are a product of socialist policies. Here's how: private companies extract oil and garsresources from the province. In exchange for access, they pay the collective owners of the resource, the people of Alberta, royalties, which are collected on their behalf by the government, which spends those royalties on various programs to benefit the collective ownership. Sounds like socialism to me.

[Hicksey]

I think its a combination of the plentiful resources from their oil fields, good management of the revenues produced, and balancing the public need for social programs.

They consistently stop short of socialism, unlike most other problems. Its one thing to fill a widespread need and still another to try to be everything to everyone.

I'll give anyone that they have more resources to manage which is easier, but if they others were better at it they wouldn't be as badly off as they are now.

Alberta's resource riches (which account for fully 1/3 of its revenues) are a product of socialist policies. Here's how: private companies extract oil and garsresources from the province. In exchange for access, they pay the collective owners of the resource, the people of Alberta, royalties, which are collected on their behalf by the government, which spends those royalties on various programs to benefit the collective ownership. Sounds like socialism to me.

This whole country is inherently socialist. The difference between the different regions is the extent to which they go in that direction. I should have worded my point differently.

[Black Dog]

I wasn't really responding to you, Hicksey, but more to the implication from this thread that Alberta is a oasis of true conservatism and free thought, when nothing is further from the truth.

[Hicksey]

I wasn't really responding to you, Hicksey, but more to the implication from this thread that Alberta is a oasis of true conservatism and free thought, when nothing is further from the truth.

That someone could believe that in Canada is kind of funny.

I'll give them that they manage their resources better than the rest of us.

But calling any part of this country anything but socialist is being naive.

[Black Dog]

I'll give them that they manage their resources better than the rest of us.

I'm not even sure they do that. For example, the royalties the government collects on oil and gas (again, on behalf of the people of Alberta) are among the lowest of any oil-producing juridstiction (60 per cent lower than Alaska), meaning the government is letting oil companies make off with the people's resources for a song. In fact, royaltyies today are roughly half what they were during the Lougheed era, leading one to wonder just how much of the spending and program cuts of the 1990s could have been avoided if the Alberta government actually operated in the public interest.

[Hicksey]

I'll give them that they manage their resources better than the rest of us.

I'm not even sure they do that. For example, the royalties the government collects on oil and gas (again, on behalf of the people of Alberta) are among the lowest of any oil-producing juridstiction (60 per cent lower than Alaska), meaning the government is letting oil companies make off with the people's resources for a song. In fact, royaltyies today are roughly half what they were during the Lougheed era, leading one to wonder just how much of the spending and program cuts of the 1990s could have been avoided if the Alberta government actually operated in the public interest.

I wasn't aware of that.

I believe how much they wring from the resources is different than what they do with the revenues. You may very well be right that they are letting their black gold go for a song.