Klein can't wait

[Leafless]

Stephen Harper no sooner gets elected with a minority government and Ralph Klein immediately moves the politcal spotlight to Alberta and his planned "third way" concerning health private care legislation.

I guess in Canada there is no such thing as patience and Mr. Klein can't wait to compete head on with with Quebec's grey area medicine an area though I must admit is quite successful and due to this requires immediate federal intervention to rewrite Canada's Health Act to prevent doctor's capitalizing in a PRIVATE WAY.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0127?hub=Canada

[tml12]

Stephen Harper no sooner gets elected with a minority government and Ralph Klein immediately moves the politcal spotlight to Alberta and his planned "third way" concerning health private care legislation.

I guess in Canada there is no such thing as patience and Mr. Klein can't wait to compete head on with with Quebec's grey area medicine an area though I must admit is quite successful and due to this requires immediate federal intervention to rewrite Canada's Health Act to prevent doctor's capitalizing in a PRIVATE WAY.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...0127?hub=Canada

One must ask the question, Leafless, whether or not it has gone too far already.

I am not sure we can save the system after the Supreme Court Ruling and continued violations of the Canada Health Act.

[CCGirl]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

[tml12]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

Money keeps flowing to the system. My doctor thinks it's a human resources problem. To be honest with you, I think she's probably right but politicians and bureacrats just don't seem to care.

UK-style health care is really something we should look into at this point...health care, like bilingualism, is turning into another myth of Canada.

[CCGirl]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

Money keeps flowing to the system. My doctor thinks it's a human resources problem. To be honest with you, I think she's probably right but politicians and bureacrats just don't seem to care.

UK-style health care is really something we should look into at this point...health care, like bilingualism, is turning into another myth of Canada.

I do not want a few individuals to profit off taxpayer money. It should all go into the collective pot to build a strong sytem where all Canadians can benefit. I agree changes need to be made, but the changes need to be in support of strengthening the system, not dismantling it.

[tml12]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

Money keeps flowing to the system. My doctor thinks it's a human resources problem. To be honest with you, I think she's probably right but politicians and bureacrats just don't seem to care.

UK-style health care is really something we should look into at this point...health care, like bilingualism, is turning into another myth of Canada.

I do not want a few individuals to profit off taxpayer money. It should all go into the collective pot to build a strong sytem where all Canadians can benefit. I agree changes need to be made, but the changes need to be in support of strengthening the system, not dismantling it.

I would have been behind you 100% if this was 5-6 years ago.

But what you have to keep in mind is that the Canada Health Act has to get through:

1) A Supreme Court ruling for this province that says we can now buy private health insurance. In fact, most Montrealers got something from Quebec Blue Cross in the mail asking if we want in.

2) Hundreds of private institutions all around this country. Many I pass every day here in the city.

3) Ralph Klein has basically already said "I am violating the act, kiss my ass."

4) Healthcare was supposed to be "fixed for a generation" in fall 2004. Why are we still discussing it now? It must be because money either isn't the problem or we can't fix it.

The best doctors are going to the States or Europe. When I was working in the States, my doctor was a McGill medical school graduate who moved down to the States because "it makes no sense" to stay in Canada if you're in the medical profession. She said you wouldn't believe how many Canadian doctors are becoming successful in the States...50% of Canadian doctors are burnt out and suffer from alcohol and/or drug conditions.

[Leafless]

tml12

You wrote- " health care, like bilingualism is turning into another myth of Canada"

Bilingualism is not an insurance plan and could be compared better to E.I. which benefits all Canadians.

I agree there are problems but the biggest problem is problems is health care administration concerning wait times.

The Supremes Court decision is based on Charter rights which is beginning and has proven in other areas to be a major financial burden concerning the realistic functionability of Canada to function properly in other areas of important matter outside of the emphasis magnified on personal rights.

Stephen Harper has promised to shorten wait times and in turn this should provide the ammo necessary to appeal the Supreme Courts ruling.

A two tier system sounds good a first glance but discriminates agaunst the usage of public funds.

Either stay public or get the government out of health care totally is what I say.

[geoffrey]

If no one has to pay cash for services, then I really don't care who provides it.

If a private company can provide it more efficiently, then yahoo lets do it.

CCgirl, you said you don't like companies profiting from taxpayers money (like the Liberal Party for example, ooo low shot)... the private sector does alot of work for the governments, why the difference in health care?

I had to wait 4 hours to see a doc after injuring my knee. I actually had flesh eating bacteria going on there, I was just lucky enough that it didn't progress to where I needed to lose my leg before the doc did the oh, lets get this guy on anti-biotics. I would have surely sued for a large sum of money if that was the case.

Any wait time over 30 minutes is completely unacceptable in my mind because you never know how serious the condition is.

And thats with emergency care, for those that have to suffer for years in pain to get their hips replaced or what not, you can go tell them that they can wait the acceptable 36 weeks.

Private care is not only a good idea, but necessary if we wish to continue our public insured health care system.

[fellowtraveller]

Looks like Klein is going to become the whipping boy for the Friends of Medicare.

It's mainly because they don't have the courage to take on Quebec, which is undoubtedly the frontrunner in privatized medicine.

CCGirl, I know you love to hate Klein, but are you aware that the delivery of medicine in Canada has been almost entirely done by the private sector since 1867? It is not about Klein. Doctors are not government employees, never have been. Chanting 'Save Medicare' quite simply will not, in itself, save Medicare. Insiisting that we somehow magically stick to a wholly publicly funded, publicly provided system (which never existed) is equally ludicrous. Insisting that the current system is the only option is simply a guarantee that it will slowly painfully collapse.

The problem is much more basic than money - there will never be enough. Dempgraphics and technolgy are compelling reasons for that reality.

It is about getting the most bang for the buck. If that involves more private sector involvement, fine. If it involves less private sector involvement, fine.

I wonder if Canada and Canadians will ever really know though, since we are apparently unable to have any kind of coherent, unemotional discussion about the options. Soembody mentioned the NHS in the UK as a possible example. To that, I can only say that you have never experienced the NHS in person. I have, and can state that I'd much rather see an American system than the hodgepodge mess in the UK.

I do like the French system, often recognized as the best in the world. We'll likely never get a chance to check it out in any meaningful way in Canada though. The French system has a large element of private sector involvement, as well as user pay/extra billing components. Until we get past the hysteria and wishing-upon-a-star-wistfully-for -something-that-has-never-existed............ maybe not in my lifetime.

[tml12]

tml12

You wrote- " health care, like bilingualism is turning into another myth of Canada"

Bilingualism is not an insurance plan and could be compared better to E.I. which benefits all Canadians.

I agree there are problems but the biggest problem is problems is health care administration concerning wait times.

The Supremes Court decision is based on Charter rights which is beginning and has proven in other areas to be a major financial burden concerning the realistic functionability of Canada to function properly in other areas of important matter outside of the emphasis magnified on personal rights.

Stephen Harper has promised to shorten wait times and in turn this should provide the ammo necessary to appeal the Supreme Courts ruling.

A two tier system sounds good a first glance but discriminates agaunst the usage of public funds.

Either stay public or get the government out of health care totally is what I say.

Leafless,

Your position is a perfectly respectable one, but could you elaborate on how and why you think the National Health Service in the UK, for example, discriminates against the usage of public funds?

[cybercoma]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

Does it make sense to pay taxpayers back their money with health insurance?

Does it then make sense for the taxpayer to choose where to get healthcare with that insurance?

[tml12]

:angry: I detest Klein, talk about coruption and a need for change.

If there was a will by politicians, the system could definately be saved and improved. It does not make any sense to pay private clinics with taxpayer money!! Take that same money and invest it in the system.

Then we all can benefit!

Does it make sense to pay taxpayers back their money with health insurance?

Does it then make sense for the taxpayer to choose where to get healthcare with that insurance?

We openly have private health care compaines sending us mail about how to sign up for Quebec Blue Cross here in Quebec...is that not a clear violation of the Canada Health Act? Because if I can pay $1,000 for a private, "off the book," MRI tomorrow then something is wrong with the "100% public" healthcare system...

[Leafless]

tml12

You wrote- " Why do you think the National Health in the UK, for example , discriminates aginst the usage of public funds."

My statement was reflecting on our Canadian system going partially private to include services up and beyond what is offered under our existing public system and available to those who have or can afford the extra cash funds.

This is using the public system to subsidize those who can afford more and therefore is not only unethical but discriminates aginst those who don't have the funds all within a closed system.

I am not really concerned with the British system or any other system but the one here in Canada.

But the British system is not really up to par.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/488

[geoffrey]

tml12

You wrote- " Why do you think the National Health in the UK, for example , discriminates aginst the usage of public funds."

My statement was reflecting on our Canadian system going partially private to include services up and beyond what is offered under our existing public system and available to those who have or can afford the extra cash funds.

This is using the public system to subsidize those who can afford more and therefore is not only unethical but discriminates aginst those who don't have the funds all within a closed system.

I am not really concerned with the British system or any other system but the one here in Canada.

But the British system is not really up to par.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/488

I don't think anyone's trying to make a second-tier. In fact, I've only seen this as privately provided, publically paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently...

[Leafless]

geoffrey

You wrote- " I don't think anyone is trying to make a second tier. In fact I have only seen this as privately provided, publicly paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently..."

No, it's publicly provided and paid for AND privately paid for (if you have the funds) i.e. for quicker diagnostic services and medical procedures. This is grey area medicine and that's what the problem is.

In my book that is what you call two tier, a system one for the rich and one for the poor.

Our present system is supposed be the same service for ALL Canadians.

[geoffrey]

geoffrey

You wrote- " I don't think anyone is trying to make a second tier. In fact I have only seen this as privately provided, publicly paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently..."

No, it's publicly provided and paid for AND privately paid for (if you have the funds) i.e. for quicker diagnostic services and medical procedures. This is grey area medicine and that's what the problem is.

In my book that is what you call two tier, a system one for the rich and one for the poor.

Our present system is supposed be the same service for ALL Canadians.

Interesting. Considering you pretty much have to get secondary insurance in Canada already to pay for things like Prescription drugs, Ambulance rides and other things, isn't it already two tier. Why not just let that insurance pay for more?

If you telling me its ok to have two tiers, where one person get go in an ambulance and the other guy has to walk, yet you have a problem with someone getting a few weeks faster service on their MRI.

[rbacon]

I guess it must be pretty obvious that CC is a Union hand. Well anyway healthcare as it is now is unsustainable almost half of the Province of Alberta budget goes to healthcare 9B taxdollars. Let's introduce a hefty dose of competition. Public funds for private clinics seems to work in the ABORTION INDUSTRY, why not for hip replacements, ruptures etc. The ABORTION INDUSTRY has been getting tax dollars for years, let's open it up and let all taxpayers benefit.

[tml12]

tml12

You wrote- " Why do you think the National Health in the UK, for example , discriminates aginst the usage of public funds."

My statement was reflecting on our Canadian system going partially private to include services up and beyond what is offered under our existing public system and available to those who have or can afford the extra cash funds.

This is using the public system to subsidize those who can afford more and therefore is not only unethical but discriminates aginst those who don't have the funds all within a closed system.

I am not really concerned with the British system or any other system but the one here in Canada.

But the British system is not really up to par.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/488

I don't think anyone's trying to make a second-tier. In fact, I've only seen this as privately provided, publically paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently...

Klein said he would violate the Canada Health Act...

[geoffrey]

tml12

You wrote- " Why do you think the National Health in the UK, for example , discriminates aginst the usage of public funds."

My statement was reflecting on our Canadian system going partially private to include services up and beyond what is offered under our existing public system and available to those who have or can afford the extra cash funds.

This is using the public system to subsidize those who can afford more and therefore is not only unethical but discriminates aginst those who don't have the funds all within a closed system.

I am not really concerned with the British system or any other system but the one here in Canada.

But the British system is not really up to par.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/488

I don't think anyone's trying to make a second-tier. In fact, I've only seen this as privately provided, publically paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently...

Klein said he would violate the Canada Health Act...

And??? Which part of the huge document please? Oh right, he didn't specify. Stop assuming the worst and smmiillleee!

[tml12]

tml12

You wrote- " Why do you think the National Health in the UK, for example , discriminates aginst the usage of public funds."

My statement was reflecting on our Canadian system going partially private to include services up and beyond what is offered under our existing public system and available to those who have or can afford the extra cash funds.

This is using the public system to subsidize those who can afford more and therefore is not only unethical but discriminates aginst those who don't have the funds all within a closed system.

I am not really concerned with the British system or any other system but the one here in Canada.

But the British system is not really up to par.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/325/7362/488

I don't think anyone's trying to make a second-tier. In fact, I've only seen this as privately provided, publically paid for care. I don't think anyone is trying to do differently...

Klein said he would violate the Canada Health Act...

And??? Which part of the huge document please? Oh right, he didn't specify. Stop assuming the worst and smmiillleee!

Who's complaining? I've been arguing the Canada Health Act is flawed for years...

[geoffrey]

Who's complaining? I've been arguing the Canada Health Act is flawed for years...

It's got some good points. Just not anything good on health care.

[hellnback]

Our present system is supposed be the same service for ALL Canadians.

That can NEVER happen as long as we have a "party" system of politics.

All major parties get the bulk of their donations from corporate (business) interests.

All major parties shape their actions to appeal to the furtherance of those donations

while favouring the segments of society having the biggest lobbies.

That explains (for example) why cancer patients seemingly don't have the priority

accorded to those wanting abortions.

That type of governmental priority-setting even applies to the practice of 'awarding'

contracts to hospital food suppliers. Ask any trucker that has done supermarket and

hospital deliveries from a load picked up at a major depot. Both get exactly the same

groceries from the same place, yet hospitals are required to pay more for it.

There are many private companies involved in all aspects of our suposedly 'social

system' of health care.

It's time for a long overdue restructuring of the entire political system.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Money keeps flowing to the system. My doctor thinks it's a human resources problem. To be honest with you, I think she's probably right but politicians and bureacrats just don't seem to care.

Imagine that... my booze hound premier not being able to foresee professional shortages after his hatchet job on post secondary education. Who woulda thunk, eh?

[geoffrey]

Money keeps flowing to the system. My doctor thinks it's a human resources problem. To be honest with you, I think she's probably right but politicians and bureacrats just don't seem to care.

Imagine that... my booze hound premier not being able to foresee professional shortages after his hatchet job on post secondary education. Who woulda thunk, eh?

Theres nothing wrong with post-secondary. The imposed restrictions on medicial graduates is not provincial jursidication, I believe it comes from the College of Physicans or whatever its called.

[fellowtraveller]

Theres nothing wrong with post-secondary. The imposed restrictions on medicial graduates is not provincial jursidication, I believe it comes from the College of Physicans or whatever its called.

Correct. They control admissions, licensing, curricculum and graduation of physicians, including foreign doctors.

Actually, the medical industry has an obvious reason for controlling the pie they all enjoy chowing down on.

On the other hand, doctors trained in many foreign countries are simply not good enough.

I wish it were otherwise- but it is not.