Pedophiles waiting in line....

[geoffrey]

So basically, if a woman gives her husband a blow job, or a man fucks his wife up the ass, that's not sex either?

Or if your teenage daughter goes out and gives 10 different blow jobs to 10 different boys, it's not sex because there's no chance whatsoever for her to become pregnant in such an unnatural use of her mouth which is "made for eating and breathing?"

Pretty bizarre view, I have to say.

Just stop pretending its the same as straight people. It's not on any level.

There's not much of a difference between a guy's mouth or a gal's mouth on a man's dick -- other than the fact that most bisexual male friends of mine tell me that gay men give better head.

Blow jobs aren't sexual intercourse. I really honestly didn't want to get into this discussion but since you insist on turning this into a sex ed forum...

I'm glad I don't have a daugther or I'd be more than a little pissed at that attempted personal attack.

I'm not saying these things need to be banned, I'm saying they are not sexual intercourse!! Pretty simple concept. Hopefully I don't need to bring out the grade 5 slides for you to understand.

[YankAbroad]

So now, finally, we've both established that you were wrong in saying there was never any history between NAMBLA and ILGA. In fact, NAMBLA was a member of ILGA!

Actually, I never stated that there was "never any history between NAMBLA and IGLA."

I did state that NAMBLA has no significant link to the "gay rights movement" (your words in quotes). IGLA is not a significant organization, and if you had any experience in the gay rights movement, you'd be keenly aware of this fact.

with the Gay Rights Movement PAST involvement with NAMBLA

Ah, you keep jumping back and forth here between IGLA and "the Gay Rights Movement."

Which is it, specifically, that you're claiming -- that NAMBLA has past involvement with IGLA, or that NAMBLA has past involvement with "the Gay Rights Movement"?

I have voiced out my concern.

Well...I guess I'll have to distance myself from this discussion.

Oh yes, your "concern."

I'm sure that your fleeing with your tail between your legs has nothing to do at ALL with the fact that:

1) You're not addressing the fact that your claim that gay rights groups are "lowering the age of consent" is a bald-faced lie;

2) You haven't yet mentioned a significant gay group or cited a significant gay group in your entire discussion of the "Gay Rights Movement." It's a bit like proving "all cars are unsafe" by citing the crash test ratings of Yugoslavian steam buggies built in 1918, but ignoring GM, Ford, Toyota, FIAT, Peugeot, Nissan, Honda, and even Studebaker and Deusenberg.

[CCGirl]

EDIT: Acts of homosexuality don't equal sex.

What???

Let me elaborate.

Sexual intercourse can't happen with gay people, one or the other lack essiential elements to make this successful. Anal intercourse isn't a natural process (mostly because it makes no sense from biology or anything else) and isn't sex in the same way. Lesbians can't possible even compare.

I really don't want to get into the intricacies of homosexual relations because personally I find even the concept disgusting. But we need to let people that aren't hurting anyone their freedom to do whatever. Just stop pretending its the same as straight people. It's not on any level.

Your defintions dont count! Who says anal intercourse isnt natural? Anal intercourse is practiced widely by HETEROSEXUALS...not just homosexuals!

[YankAbroad]

I'm glad I don't have a daugther or I'd be more than a little pissed at that attempted personal attack.

Oh, get over yourself.

I'm not saying these things need to be banned, I'm saying they are not sexual intercourse!!

So a high school girl who has given hundreds of blow jobs and been eaten out by her boyfriend is a virgin and never had sex? My old nuns at Catholic school would have taken a particular exception with that concept!

[geoffrey]

EDIT: Acts of homosexuality don't equal sex.

What???

Let me elaborate.

Sexual intercourse can't happen with gay people, one or the other lack essiential elements to make this successful. Anal intercourse isn't a natural process (mostly because it makes no sense from biology or anything else) and isn't sex in the same way. Lesbians can't possible even compare.

I really don't want to get into the intricacies of homosexual relations because personally I find even the concept disgusting. But we need to let people that aren't hurting anyone their freedom to do whatever. Just stop pretending its the same as straight people. It's not on any level.

Your defintions dont count! Who says anal intercourse isnt natural? Anal intercourse is practiced widely by HETEROSEXUALS...not just homosexuals!

I'm not discussing whether it should or shouldn't be practice. I said I don't care whatever you or anyone choose to do in the privacy of their house.

I'm discussing whether there is a difference between gay acts and straight acts and the responsibility associated with them

There is also the issue that you are much more likely to contract diseases through anal intercourse (and I'd say with gay people because HIV is higher in that population but that'd probably get a human rights board complaint). Most straight teens EDIT: DON'T (sorry missed a word) take STD's serious enough to be doing half the stuff they do, let alone these people that decide to go into the underworld gay acts that are much more 'high risk' as the liberal folks call them.

[CCGirl]

The changing of the traditional definition of marriage had opened the gates.

What gates?

And I'm only questioning the fact....that with the Gay Rights Movement PAST involvement with NAMBLA...and for all the declared disassociation with the pedophile group, why is the Gay Rights Movement still pushing for lowering the age of consent?

Hello!!! There should be no difference in the age of consent between hetero and homosexuals.

Link

CONCERN #6: UNEQUAL AGES OF CONSENT

The law currently discriminates in that there is a separate provision criminalizing anal sex, which sets the age of consent for anal sex higher than that for other forms of sex. This has been recognized as unconstitutional by both the Ontario Court of Appeal and the Quebec Court of Appeal. Any change in the Criminal Code must repeal section 159, so that anal sex is treated the same as other forms of sexual activity.

[geoffrey]

CONCERN #6: UNEQUAL AGES OF CONSENT

The law currently discriminates in that there is a separate provision criminalizing anal sex, which sets the age of consent for anal sex higher than that for other forms of sex. This has been recognized as unconstitutional by both the Ontario Court of Appeal and the Quebec Court of Appeal. Any change in the Criminal Code must repeal section 159, so that anal sex is treated the same as other forms of sexual activity.

It's not sex. It's not sex. Age of consent for sex is different than anal intercourse. Makes sense to me considering one is way more high risk than the other.

[betsy]

Why, are heterosexuals lobbying to lower the age of consent? Never heard of that one.

Homosexuals aren't lobbying to lower the age of consent either -- a point you've ignored for the SIXTH time now. Repeating your lie over and over doesn't make it true, you know.

In every case you've cited, the age of consent law was moved for gay sexual intercourse to the SAME place where it ALREADY WAS for straight sexual intercourse -- in other words, people didn't have to be older in order to legally have homosexual relations with others.

The one case you cited about Sri Lanka lowering its opposite-sex age of consent had no gay involvement at all -- in fact, Sri Lanka is a very homophobic country where sexual relations with members of the same sex is punishable by prison time. Your argument that the "Gay Rights Movement" has anything to do with decisions in that country is dishonest in the extreme.

Just have to correct you on this one.

I did not say the Sri Lanka case was lobbied by the Gay Rights Movement. I posted that to show that age is getting lowered...thus my comment, "pedophilia is winning."

It is Lithuania that was lobbied by the Lesbian and Gay Association. And they succeeded. The link for the news report is somewhere in this topic.

[CCGirl]

CONCERN #6: UNEQUAL AGES OF CONSENT

The law currently discriminates in that there is a separate provision criminalizing anal sex, which sets the age of consent for anal sex higher than that for other forms of sex. This has been recognized as unconstitutional by both the Ontario Court of Appeal and the Quebec Court of Appeal. Any change in the Criminal Code must repeal section 159, so that anal sex is treated the same as other forms of sexual activity.

It's not sex. It's not sex. Age of consent for sex is different than anal intercourse. Makes sense to me considering one is way more high risk than the other.

Repeating your opinion of it not being sex is irrelevant. Let's stick to facts.

[YankAbroad]

There is also the issue that you are much more likely to contract diseases through anal intercourse

That's quite incorrect -- dangerously so.

Vaginal intercourse can transmit HIV as effectively as anal intercourse -- in fact, moreso if it's the female partner in a heterosexual relationship who is HIV+ and having unprotected penile-vaginal sex with a male.

Most straight teens EDIT: DON'T (sorry missed a word) take STD's serious enough to be doing half the stuff they do, let alone these people that decide to go into the underworld gay acts that are much more 'high risk'

1: Anal sex between two men is no more riskier than anal sex between a man and a woman;

2: Penile-vaginal sex between a man and a woman is no less risky as an HIV transmission medium than anal sex between two men and a man or woman. If you have any doubt of this, see the soaring rates of HIV infection in heterosexual communities in the west. Heterosexual men and women are now by far the fastest growing segment of people becoming HIV positive, whereas the infection rate in the gay community has been in decline for the past five years. One major driver for this alarming trend in heterosexual communities is the bizarre notion that one cannot contract HIV from heterosexual intercourse. It's literally killing people -- including teens.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear geoffrey,

It's not sex. It's not sex. Age of consent for sex is different than anal intercourse.

Anal and oral sex are, in some places (especially where is is still illegal to practice them), called 'sodomy'. I am not sure if you are actually trying to argue that they are not 'sex', but I can tell you Bill Clinton lost that argument, and had to instead attack the word 'is'.

[CCGirl]

I posted that to show that age is getting lowered...thus my comment, "pedophilia is winning."

Actually, it has consistently GONE UP

Social and legal attitudes towards the appropriate age of consent have drifted upwards in modern times; while ages from ten through to thirteen were typically acceptable in the mid 19th century, fifteen through eighteen had become the norm in many countries by the end of the 20th century

[YankAbroad]

I did not say the Sri Lanka case was lobbied by the Gay Rights Movement. I posted that to show that age is getting lowered...thus my comment, "pedophilia is winning."

Except that the decision to lower the age in Sri Lanka has nothing to go with gay rights organizations, so your argument is, as usual, spurious.

It is Lithuania that was lobbied by the Lesbian and Gay Association

According to your right-wing anti-gay web site, yes.

Of course, as a highly active former board member of a major US gay rights group with a multi-million-dollar budget, I've never heard of the "Lesbian and Gay Association." Further, the law in Lithuania did not lower the age of consent -- it equalized the same-sex age of consent with the opposite-sex age of consent.

It's funny how the only example of an actual age of consent being LOWERED (rather than equalizing gay intercourse at the same age as heterosexual intercourse) is in a country where gay rights have no influence whatsoever. It would suggest that, if anything, societies without strong gay rights movements are more likely to lower the age of consent across the board -- rather opposite from the position of "concern" which you are taking.

[CCGirl]

CONCERN #6: UNEQUAL AGES OF CONSENT

The law currently discriminates in that there is a separate provision criminalizing anal sex, which sets the age of consent for anal sex higher than that for other forms of sex. This has been recognized as unconstitutional by both the Ontario Court of Appeal and the Quebec Court of Appeal. Any change in the Criminal Code must repeal section 159, so that anal sex is treated the same as other forms of sexual activity.

[betsy]

So now, finally, we've both established that you were wrong in saying there was never any history between NAMBLA and ILGA. In fact, NAMBLA was a member of ILGA!

Actually, I never stated that there was "never any history between NAMBLA and IGLA."

I did state that NAMBLA has no significant link to the "gay rights movement" (your words in quotes). IGLA is not a significant organization, and if you had any experience in the gay rights movement, you'd be keenly aware of this fact.

2) You haven't yet mentioned a significant gay group or cited a significant gay group in your entire discussion of the "Gay Rights Movement." It's a bit like proving "all cars are unsafe" by citing the crash test ratings of Yugoslavian steam buggies built in 1918, but ignoring GM, Ford, Toyota, FIAT, Peugeot, Nissan, Honda, and even Studebaker and Deusenberg.

As for the relationship between ILGA and NAMBLA...please refer to your own posts #64 and #67 on page 5.

I must've misunderstood your statements.

As for mentioning any specific groups by name, as you can see I have no personal experience in the gay rights movement....besides why do I need to memorize any specific group by name?

I thought saying Gay Rights MOvement meant just that. Maybe by a different name...but the agenda's still the same, right?

[betsy]

I posted that to show that age is getting lowered...thus my comment, "pedophilia is winning."

Actually, it has consistently GONE UP

Social and legal attitudes towards the appropriate age of consent have drifted upwards in modern times; while ages from ten through to thirteen were typically acceptable in the mid 19th century, fifteen through eighteen had become the norm in many countries by the end of the 20th century

So Sri Lanka decided to go back down. Darn!

[YankAbroad]

As for mentioning any specific groups by name, as you can see I have no personal experience in the gay rights movement....besides why do I need to memorize any specific group by name?

Because you're the one claiming that NAMBLA maintained a central role in the gay rights movement.

If you cannot even name one or two primary groups in the gay rights movement, you're in no position to make such a ludicrous and inflammatory contention.

I thought saying Gay Rights MOvement meant just that. Maybe by a different name...but the agenda's still the same, right?

Actually, no it's not.

There is no "agenda" universally shared by a "Gay Rights Movement." Anyone with any involvement in gay political circles can easily confirm this basic fact.

There are certain gay political groups which have significant influence or represent large blocs of a certain point of view within the gay community -- but on virtually every issue you can think of, there's disagreement within the community itself. To argue it's monolithic is naive (and bordering on imbecilic).

So Sri Lanka decided to go back down.

And we all know how influenced by gay and western political culture the Sri Lankans are.

I suggest you reboot and recompute.

[scribblet]

the history of NAMBLA (with its previous association with the Gay Rights Movement)

Why is the Gay and Lesbian Association pushing for lowering the age of consent?

They aren't, since:

1) There's no "Gay and Lesbian Association";

2) As has been pointed out to you at least twice now, and which you've ignored completely, they're not advocating lowering the age of consent, but bringing the age of consent for homosexual sex to the same level as the age of consent for heterosexual sex, which is typically lower.

Same difference, they want it lowered in the name of equal rights, but protecting our young boys is preferable and more important than 'equal rights' in this case.

Actually I thought NAMBLA was founded by Kaptain Kangaroo and Mr. Rogers.... Nice conspiracy theory about the FBI though. LOL

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2002_fall/.../opinions4.html

Pedophile propoganda should not be protected by free speech

By Katie Walsh

Commentary Editor John West/Chronicle

www.johnwestcomics.com

There are some pretty unbelievable things in America. But nothing is more unbelievable than the North American Man Boy Love Association. Some of you may have heard of this disgusting group and others may think it’s a joke. Well it isn’t. It is a recognized group of men who support sexual acts between boys as young as 8 years old and grown men.

NAMBLA was started in 1978 as a split group from a radical gay paper in Boston that was shut down by Massachusetts authorities. They have a website that can be accessed easily. The goal of NAMBLA’s website, journals and bulletins is to “end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships.”

snip

If anyone’s civil rights are being violated, it’s young boys who are confused and have access to a sight like NAMBLA or fall victim to its members like Curley did. The ACLU should worry about the civil liberties of children before they fall all over themselves defending the indefensible.

[YankAbroad]

Same difference, they want it lowered in the name of equal rights, but protecting our young boys is preferable

If you want to "protect our young boys," and making the age of consent for same-sex relations the same as opposite sex relations doesn't do so, doesn't that say that the age of consent for heterosexual relations is too low and should be increased?

Or are you trying to argue that homosexuals are uniquely inclined to victimise children?

Nice conspiracy theory about the FBI though

Actually, it's a rather well-documented phenomenon.

The mailing addresses for NAMBLA for several years were at a mailbox which the FBI also used for informants. And the publicly published "membership list" of the organization was filled with the names of political enemies of J. Edgar Hoover as well as prominent members of the opposition at the time of the publication. Most of the members of the opposition who were named clearly had no involvement whatsoever.

The ACLU should worry about the civil liberties of children before they fall all over themselves defending the indefensible.

The ACLU is not defending rapists or the views of the group in question. They are defending its right to advocate points of view which some find distasteful.

I happen to find your rather nasty view of gays as pedophile predators to be disgusting, bigoted, contemptible, harmful to gays (especially young gays) and without moral basis or social value. However, I will also defend to the death your freedom to be disgusting, bigoted, contemptible, harmful in speech, immoral and taking positions lacking in social value -- since those basic freedoms preserve our marketplace of ideas which moves society forward.

[newbie]

Age of consent for sex is different than anal intercourse.

So like, uh, what's the age of consent for a blowjob?

[tml12]

Age of consent for sex is different than anal intercourse.

So like, uh, what's the age of consent for a blowjob?

Have you ever been IDed before getting a blowjob?

Like you came home from the bar and he/she was like, you must be [insert age here] before I can do this, may I see your ID.

Another reason why I think we need to move above and beyond these age issues, especially when it is really an issue of maturity more than anything.

[YankAbroad]

We can have the government do a study on it and issue each person with a "Fuckability Card."

Of course, we will have to tax sex in order to have this happen, but think of the good this will do! Sex is a luxury anyway, and with our sex tax we can fund all sorts of new cultural programming on the CBC. Sorta taxing sex to fund mental masturbation!

[Hicksey]

EDIT: Do you support the idea that the age of consent for homosexuality should be different than for heterosexuals?

The age is too low as is. Shouldn't be a difference, it just shouldn't be 14.

I still say it shouldn't be based on the age, rather we need to make sure 50 year olds aren't screwing their 14 year old neighbour.

I think justice is best served when it is based on both age and difference in age. What to propose though? Maybe a min age at 15, but not allowing anyone 25 or over to have sex with anyone more than 10 years their junior where the junior is between 15 and 20 years of age. I know it may seem complicated but maybe someone can think of a better way.

[betsy]

Same difference, they want it lowered in the name of equal rights, but protecting our young boys is preferable

If you want to "protect our young boys," and making the age of consent for same-sex relations the same as opposite sex relations doesn't do so, doesn't that say that the age of consent for heterosexual relations is too low and should be increased?

Or are you trying to argue that homosexuals are uniquely inclined to victimise children?

Nice conspiracy theory about the FBI though

Actually, it's a rather well-documented phenomenon.

For all your accusations about "FBI-conspiracy" theories which are really....really way to the top.....

at least humor us and provide a link backing up your claims. For something that you claim is "well-documented"...and a "phenomenon" at that, I'm sure you will not have a hard time finding credible materials to substantiate your claims.

And for all your sweeping and automatic dismissal and indifference to what I think is a legitimate concern for some, show some substantiations that ALL THE SITES used for our arguments are without credibility......back your claims.

Your attempts at denials...even when faced with different accounts from all sources that yes, NAMBLA had a history with ILGA, and yes, Gay Rights Movement had pushed for the lowering of AoC in Lithuania, highly questions your credibility in your arguments and reasoning.

This is like the extreme right-wing looney denying the holocaust ever existed.

Please, let's not try to twist facts and change history.

This is a debate. Back up your claims so we can have a better understanding. You cannot expect me or those who questions like me to just accept your word as it is...even if you do it on scout's honor.

Otherwise, your arguments are just hot air coming from someone who, by your very own voluntary admission.....had worked for a gay rights group (and still working), and thus obviously, and understandably, your very biased tirade is shining like a beacon.

[betsy]

My statement above about your admission to working for a gay rights grou....I neglected to put a question mark on the part "and still working." I'm not sure if you are still involved.