The justice according to new and old testament

[Gaétan]

In the New Testament the punishment is according to the golden rule of loving your neighbor as yourself and only takes place after your death, after having lived your life, if you are an unjust person and from now on you can repent, while in the Old Testament your punishment is according to the law of retaliation and takes place immediately if you are caught whether you are a just or an unjust person which means that the righteous are wrongly condemned and this It is even said that you can sometimes sacrifice an innocent animal in your place, which seems to me to be a total injustice. The Old Testament is the justice of the devil or others while in the New Testament you are the implementer of justice, it is not God who condemns you it is you, God only does executed the judgment you had against yourself.

Example: Adultery, in the Old Testament you are condemned to death whether you are just or unjust right away while in the New Testament you are only condemned after your death, after having lived your whole life without to be repented of it on the condition of having been unjust, that is to say not accepting that your partner cheats on you.

I prefer the rule of justice of the New Testament to that of the Old Testament but we see that society prefers the rule of the Old Testament and applies it.

[French Patriot]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

In the New Testament the punishment is

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The Bible indicates that God saves us all, as is his stated will.

Why do you see God as a loser of his perfectly created souls?

Why do you doubt that he will do his will and save us all? 

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

Example: Adultery, in the Old Testament you are condemned to death

How can this be correct when it greatly exceed the near ideal, of an eye for an eye?

[Gaétan]

9 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Why do you doubt that he will do his will and save us all? 

There is nothing in the teaching of Jesus Christ that we will be all saved but the opposite and only few are saved. To say that we will all be saved is an invention to scam the faithful. If you want to saved you just have to just, no unjust is saved.

Edited March 13 by Gaétan

[French Patriot]

23 hours ago, Gaétan said:

There is nothing in the teaching of Jesus Christ that we will be all saved but the opposite and only few are saved. To say that we will all be saved is an invention to scam the faithful. If you want to saved you just have to just, no unjust is saved.

I just quoted the teaching you faithless a hole.

Done here due to your stupidity.

 

[Gaétan]

3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

I just quoted the teaching you faithless a hole.

Done here due to your stupidity.

 

What you said doen't come from Jesus, here what come from him. You see few will enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Mt 22.14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Luke 13He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to

t 11.11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Edited March 14 by Gaétan

[French Patriot]

On 3/14/2024 at 1:22 PM, Gaétan said:

Mt 22.14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

So your perfect God cannot create consistently perfect souls.

Keep your incompetent God and ignore where he says he creates all souls perfect and saves them all, as quoted.

[Gaétan]

30 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

So your perfect God cannot create consistently perfect souls.

Keep your incompetent God and ignore where he says he creates all souls perfect and saves them all, as quoted.

I would like you to comment the justice at the original post, this is another subject.

[OftenWrong]

On 3/13/2024 at 10:52 AM, French Patriot said:

Why do you see God as a loser of his perfectly created souls?

Why do you doubt that he will do his will and save us all?

Perhaps we are just his flotsam and jetsam.

[Gaétan]

Jesus teaches that being fair is treating others the way you want to be treated not the way they treat you. Example:

Mt 18.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[i] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

You see, we want to be forgiven for our faults so we must forgive others their faults, the bad servant you can see that he behaved unjustly he wanted the master to forgive him like everyone else but he did not want not forgive the faults made to him. He was unjust, God as you see does not punish faults, he was free from his debts or his faults, he punishes the unjust. God did not punish him because he had debts or faults, he punished him because he was unjust. You see, the courts are a plot of the devil to send you to hell

Edited March 16 by Gaétan

[French Patriot]

On 3/16/2024 at 12:36 PM, Gaétan said:

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[g]

What if the offence is slapping your wife?

 

 

Edited March 17 by French Patriot

[French Patriot]

On 3/16/2024 at 10:03 AM, Gaétan said:

I would like you to comment the justice at the original post, this is another subject.

Ok. 

Do you agree with these Jews on their views of Yahweh's justice?

 

[Gaétan]

5 hours ago, French Patriot said:

What if the offence is slapping your wife?

 

 

This is an unjustice but you are just if you agree that she slaps you.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

This is an unjustice but you are just if you agree that she slaps you.

Hence the immortal question... standing at St. Peter's gate... "So when did you stop beating your wife?"

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Ok. 

Do you agree with these Jews on their views of Yahweh's justice?

 

Perhaps god is so different that we don't understand it. Perhaps to the point we CANNOT understand it.

We make a 'model' of god, and the model changes over time as we evolve and change. The old testament is the angry vengeful god, while the new one rejects that model and presents a newer, more enlightened, more peaceful and tolerant god. Then the Romans evolved this further, developing it into the foundation for western moral and legal thought.

Note that the Romans rejected their former god(s), Jupiter et al being warrior-like, in lieu of a new and singular saviour of all mankind. Not just the Jews or the Egyptians, etc. They willingly made the transition from their long established violent past toward a new and modern future. It hints at what god really is.

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

The old testament is the angry vengeful god,

Don't believe some of the uneducated, presumptive comments made on here.

Here is a good article on God.  The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament.

quote

In the King James Version (KJV) of the Old Testament, we encounter a multifaceted portrayal of God’s character, encompassing both mercy and justice. Let’s delve into how these attributes are revealed:

Mercy and Compassion:

The Old Testament consistently portrays God as merciful and compassionate. These qualities are deeply rooted in His character.

In Exodus 34:6–7, during the account of the golden calf, God reveals His divine name to Moses. This proclamation highlights essential attributes:

“The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” 1.

God’s mercy extends beyond mere restraint from wrath; it also moves Him with compassion toward the poor and the broken 1.

Throughout the Old Testament, we witness God’s merciful acts toward His people, even when they rebelled and disobeyed 2.

Justice:

God’s justice is evident in His dealings with humanity. He upholds righteousness and punishes wrongdoing.

For instance, consider the story of Lot and the city of Sodom. God acted with justice against the corrupt and sinful city, demonstrating His intolerance for evil 3.

The mercy seat in the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:17–22) symbolized both God’s justice and His willingness to forgive. It was made of pure gold and placed atop the Ark of the Covenant. Two cherubim faced each other, covering the mercy seat with their wings. Here, God met with His people, balancing justice with mercy 4.

In summary, the Old Testament paints a rich tapestry of God’s character, revealing His unwavering commitment to both justice and mercy. His actions toward humanity reflect a harmonious blend of these attributes, underscoring His love for His creation.

unquote

The Old Testament God of Compassion and Mercy by Miles Van Pelt (ligonier.org)

Mercy Defined: Its Profound Meaning in the Bible | Christian Pure

What the Bible says about God's Justice (bibletools.org)

Exodus 25:17-22,Romans 3:25,Hebrews 4:16 KJV - And thou shalt make a mercy seat of - Bible Gateway

   There are four websites loaded with a massive amount of information on this topic.  Much better to read them than listen to people who do not have any idea what they are talking about.

Edited March 18 by blackbird

[Gaétan]

With Moses god punishs the sin, with Jesus God punish the injustice, i shew the exemple of the bad servant so that you see the difference. People are full of sins but if you are just, so you accept that this sin to be committed towards you, you can enter the Kingdom of heaven. Also you can repent with Jesus God before you die. The god of Moses is not the same God as Jésus.

[French Patriot]

12 hours ago, Gaétan said:

This is an unjustice but you are just if you agree that she slaps you.

It is quite the husband that will let his wife be slapped around. 

Go away.

[French Patriot]

10 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Perhaps god is so different that we don't understand it.

If that is the case, then we should reject it's commands.

Do you put God above or below yourself?

God here I define as a best ideal, natural or supernatural or whatever you gives ther best rules and laws to live by.

Consider first, that you are an animal first, and anything else after your mental birth.

The God, or best ideal or type of an ant, is an ant.

The God, or best ideal or type of a lion, is a lion.

The God, or best ideal or type of a human being, is a human being.

We are natural and spiritual beings, not supernatural beings, and should thus follow a natural and spiritual religion, not a supernatural based religion.

Thoughts?

[French Patriot]

6 hours ago, blackbird said:

God’s justice is evident in His dealings with humanity.

Indeed. That is how we know to condemn his sorry ass to hell.

Did you view that God on trial clip?

[Gaétan]

It is not realy God who condems you, it's yourself. If you don't accept the sins you commit towads others to be committed towards you, you are condemned. God  applys your own condemnation. There can't be two justices, the rules of justice you apply to others apply to you. God just applys your own justice, not his but yours and it is what is the more just. If God would applys his own justice, everybody would go to the Kingdom but it wouldn't be just, what is just is that your rules of justice applys to you.

[French Patriot]

17 hours ago, Gaétan said:

This is an unjustice but you are just if you agree that she slaps you.

Then there is nothing to forgive. 

Thanks for showing though how you would let someone be repeatedly abused. 

Christians. Sigh.

[French Patriot]

3 hours ago, Gaétan said:

It is not realy God who condems you, it's yourself. If you don't accept the sins you commit towads others to be committed towards you, you are condemned. God  applys your own condemnation. There can't be two justices, the rules of justice you apply to others apply to you. God just applys your own justice, not his but yours and it is what is the more just. If God would applys his own justice, everybody would go to the Kingdom but it wouldn't be just, what is just is that your rules of justice applys to you.

Good. My justice is superior to you genocidal LGBTQ+ hating proick of a God.

Your God is said to make all souls perfect. You are not believing this.

Strange how Christians have to condition themselves  to hate so many of their own children, should they not be born matching the thinking of their immoral parents.

[French Patriot]

3 hours ago, Gaétan said:

It is not realy God who condems you, it's yourself. If you don't accept the sins you commit towads others to be committed towards you, you are condemned. God  applys your own condemnation. There can't be two justices, the rules of justice you apply to others apply to you. God just applys your own justice, not his but yours and it is what is the more just. If God would applys his own justice, everybody would go to the Kingdom but it wouldn't be just, what is just is that your rules of justice applys to you.

As an aside on Your God's justice. Care to engage? Or have you run away before?

On Jesus dying for Christians, from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat.

Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.


 

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, French Patriot said:

If that is the case, then we should reject it's commands.

Do you put God above or below yourself?

God here I define as a best ideal, natural or supernatural or whatever you gives ther best rules and laws to live by.

Consider first, that you are an animal first, and anything else after your mental birth.

The God, or best ideal or type of an ant, is an ant.

The God, or best ideal or type of a lion, is a lion.

The God, or best ideal or type of a human being, is a human being.

We are natural and spiritual beings, not supernatural beings, and should thus follow a natural and spiritual religion, not a supernatural based religion.

Thoughts?

Okay. But there is evolution. I believe in it. So wait- things were not made perfect from the ground up? Things need to evolve? 

And how far can that evolution go. Physically, mentally. Spiritually.

Can the creation exceed its creator?

I say yes, it's possible. Just as I can learn a new and different pov from a simple child.

Because over time, things get corrupted. Somebody or something made that a law of this "reality" you people live in.

Don't like it? Who you gonna call?   🤷‍♂️

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, blackbird said:

Don't believe some of the uneducated, presumptive comments made on here.

Here is a good article on God.  The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament.

quote

In the King James Version (KJV) of the Old Testament, we encounter a multifaceted portrayal of God’s character, encompassing both mercy and justice. Let’s delve into how these attributes are revealed:

Mercy and Compassion:

The Old Testament consistently portrays God as merciful and compassionate. These qualities are deeply rooted in His character.

In Exodus 34:6–7, during the account of the golden calf, God reveals His divine name to Moses. This proclamation highlights essential attributes:

“The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” 1.

God’s mercy extends beyond mere restraint from wrath; it also moves Him with compassion toward the poor and the broken 1.

Throughout the Old Testament, we witness God’s merciful acts toward His people, even when they rebelled and disobeyed 2.

Justice:

God’s justice is evident in His dealings with humanity. He upholds righteousness and punishes wrongdoing.

For instance, consider the story of Lot and the city of Sodom. God acted with justice against the corrupt and sinful city, demonstrating His intolerance for evil 3.

The mercy seat in the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:17–22) symbolized both God’s justice and His willingness to forgive. It was made of pure gold and placed atop the Ark of the Covenant. Two cherubim faced each other, covering the mercy seat with their wings. Here, God met with His people, balancing justice with mercy 4.

In summary, the Old Testament paints a rich tapestry of God’s character, revealing His unwavering commitment to both justice and mercy. His actions toward humanity reflect a harmonious blend of these attributes, underscoring His love for His creation.

unquote

The Old Testament God of Compassion and Mercy by Miles Van Pelt (ligonier.org)

Mercy Defined: Its Profound Meaning in the Bible | Christian Pure

What the Bible says about God's Justice (bibletools.org)

Exodus 25:17-22,Romans 3:25,Hebrews 4:16 KJV - And thou shalt make a mercy seat of - Bible Gateway

   There are four websites loaded with a massive amount of information on this topic.  Much better to read them than listen to people who do not have any idea what they are talking about.

I understand. I did say, we make a model. It is we who learn and grow, and so our understanding of that model changes.