DUI_Offender Posted June 16 Report Share Posted June 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Trump would give Putin both an exit ramp an PR win. The exit ramp being Trump's dismantling of NATO, full territorial concessions to Russia, and a pro-Russian regime change for Ukraine. Edited June 16 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 16 Author Report Share Posted June 16 7 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: The exit ramp being A negotiated end to the conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 16 Report Share Posted June 16 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: A negotiated end to the conflict. BTW, you still are dodging my previous question. You stated that North Korea's ammunition production, far outpaces the west as a whole. Do you have a reliable source that can validate this claim? Edited June 16 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 52 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: BTW I think a negotiated end will happen sooner than most people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 Still waiting for a source in regards to your North Korea claims..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 8 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: The US have months before a referendum is held, regarding the country's stance on its economy, and on things like the Ukraine conflict. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 15 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: Trump is more or less a Russian asset, who is in Putin's back pocket. If Trump is elected, the war will probably come to an end within a few months of him taking office. However, it will not be "peace." It will be Trump giving Russia everything it wants, and leaving Ukraine out of the mix. Technically Trump is correct when he says he can help end the war. The problem is, Trump will betray the Ukrainians immediately, and help Putin achieve victory, and conquer the entire Ukraine. Hilarious. You still carry the "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA" torch eh? I guess when ya got nothing better...bullshit will suffice. Come on now. Give us the full Monte. "TRUMP! RUSSIA! OIL! AAAHHH! WE ALL GONNA DIIIEEE!" So pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 9 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: Still waiting for a source in regards to your North Korea claims..... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-06-05/south-korea-is-making-weapons-faster-and-cheaper-than-the-us It's Brandon who has allowed this whole cluster-fck to happen. Just another failure, brought to you by the great Libbie savior...Brandon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 I just don't understand the logic of those who genuinely believe Russia can be beaten on the ground by Ukraine. Ukraine can masterfully defend itself, and hats off to its resilience in doing so. Speaks volumes of their grit and character. But grit and character won't be enough if outnumbered multiple times over. They had poorly trained convicts stand their ground and even poke holes in Ukraine's defense. Its not to shine light on Ukraine in terms of poorly performing, but rather the fact that Russia literally had hundreds of thousands of useless bodies (to them) they were happy to throw into the fire, just to bide their time and hold the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I just don't understand the logic of those who genuinely believe Russia can be beaten on the ground by Ukraine. Ukraine can masterfully defend itself, and hats off to its resilience in doing so. Speaks volumes of their grit and character. But grit and character won't be enough if outnumbered multiple times over. They had poorly trained convicts stand their ground and even poke holes in Ukraine's defense. Its not to shine light on Ukraine in terms of poorly performing, but rather the fact that Russia literally had hundreds of thousands of useless bodies (to them) they were happy to throw into the fire, just to bide their time and hold the line. You just contradicted yourself. You claim they can't be beaten on the ground and then congratulate Ukraine for beating them on the ground. And then you push a lie as if all 300,000+ of their military they have committed to this, plus the 25K more a month in replacements for the casualties were just poorly trained convicts. That is absurd on its face. The bulk of the forces they have committed are not poorly trained convicts. They have sent a good chunk of convicts, but that just shows the Russians can't feed this war machine as relentlessly as you and others keep trying to pretend they can forever. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 9 minutes ago, User said: You claim they can't be beaten on the ground and then congratulate Ukraine for beating them on the ground. Their attempt to take over the country, was thwarted. The conflict is still ongoing. You are correct that the above presents a victory for Ukraine, but to win at this conflict, you must fully push back Russian forces. I just don't see this happening. 10 minutes ago, User said: The bulk I never said the bulk. Many were elite soldiers. However, was pointing to the fact that Russia was able to throw bodies at the meat gringer, in some of the most heavily contested land. 12 minutes ago, User said: Russians can't feed this war machine as relentlessly as you and others keep trying to pretend they can forever. Nor can Ukraine. Based on manpower, Russia could essentially last longer. Why do you think Russia has made gains? Eventually this war will have crippling effects, economically. However, Russia backing down would be an epic level of humiliation I think they would rather die than to bear. Only way out, is negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 51 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Only way out, is negotiations. No, it is not. You keep claiming this, I have repeatedly explained otherwise. You have also flip-flopped back and forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, User said: You claim they can't be beaten on the ground and then congratulate Ukraine for beating them on the ground. That's not what he said. He praised their resilience, grit and character. I don't disagree with any of your points, but you should choose your words more carefully. 😐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: That's not what he said. He praised their resilience, grit and character. I don't disagree with any of your points, but you should choose your words more carefully. 😐 My words are just fine. He said: "Ukraine can masterfully defend itself, and hats off to its resilience in doing so. Speaks volumes of their grit and character." Ukraine "masterfully" defended itself by beating Russians on the ground. That was my point, that this whole line of argument is disingenuous where these guys claim Russia can't be beat... but Ukraine is beating them by holding off their invasion AND pushing back their initial invasion push. If Russia can't be beat, this would not be dragging on for 3 years now with only paltry gains on their part as they have thrown their men into the meat grinder trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 12 minutes ago, User said: My words are just fine. He said: "Ukraine can masterfully defend itself, and hats off to its resilience in doing so. Speaks volumes of their grit and character." No, they're not. Masterfully is not the same thing as successfully. One is a matter of skill, the other is a matter of outcome. You can masterfully defend yourself from 10 attackers and still get your ass beaten. That's the point that Perspektiv is making. He's not contradicting himself, though I agree his conclusion is wrong and based on a long list of faulty assumptions and fallacies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 20 minutes ago, Moonbox said: No, they're not. Masterfully is not the same thing as successfully. One is a matter of skill, the other is a matter of outcome. You can masterfully defend yourself from 10 attackers and still get your ass beaten. That's the point that Perspektiv is making. He's not contradicting himself, though I agree his conclusion is wrong and based on a long list of faulty assumptions and fallacies. My bad, I was not quite onto your little troll job yet. I am now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nationalist said: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-06-05/south-korea-is-making-weapons-faster-and-cheaper-than-the-us It's Brandon who has allowed this whole cluster-fck to happen. Just another failure, brought to you by the great Libbie savior...Brandon. Paywall. Besides that's South Korea. In case you did not know this, the two nations are not the same country. Edited June 17 by DUI_Offender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 27 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Paywall. Besides that's South Korea. In case you did not know this, the two nations are not the same country. Ah yes...paywall...oh well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 3 hours ago, User said: Ukraine "masterfully" defended itself by beating Russians on the ground. By resisting their incursion. Russia displayed massive levels of incompetence as well as a management style that hampered them on the battlefield. Ukraine earned its victory, but let's not get it twisted. They also understand the threat that Russia poses to them, and how outmatched that they are without foreign weapons. The best of weapons, are allowing them to hold their lines. 3 hours ago, User said: but Ukraine is beating them by holding off their invasion Russia is still holding onto almost 20% of their territory. Not trying to offend anyone, but that isn't a win, regardless of how you spin it. Its a loss. A massive one, when you look at the level of infrastructure that has been damaged, to boot. The win, is under all of this pressure, that Ukraine hasn't folded. Kudos to them, but to say they can defeat Russia vs continue to hold their battle lines, is a far stretch. Beating Russia would mean pushing them back where they came from. Ukraine simply doesn't have the weapons or the personnel to do so. Leaked documents painted a dire picture, even conceded by Zelensky. Of course you need to sound optimistic to secure funding. Reality, is this is survival. Negotiations is the only way this ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 12 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: By resisting their incursion. Russia displayed massive levels of incompetence as well as a management style that hampered them on the battlefield. Ukraine earned its victory, but let's not get it twisted. They also understand the threat that Russia poses to them, and how outmatched that they are without foreign weapons. The best of weapons, are allowing them to hold their lines. I am not twisting anything. I understand that pushing Russia further back is no walk in the park, but it certainly is not hopeless, impossible, where negotiation is the only way out as you keep saying. You keep trying to argue that Russia has the numbers... but those numbers didn't get them a win on their invasion. 14 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Russia is still holding onto almost 20% of their territory. You keep bringing this up, but you fail to note how much of that territory they had already captured in their proxy war before their invasion. In total, they have not gained all that much as part of this invasion at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 17 Author Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, User said: but it certainly is not hopeless Zelensky himself under pressure for why the push back hadn't materialized remotely close to what was desired.had to concede that doing so would be nothing short of suicide. Russia isn't going to just stand there and look pretty. They will booby trapped the living s*** out of what they have. Its a lot harder to be offensive without air superiority. 1 hour ago, User said: but those numbers didn't get them a win on their invasion. Correct. However, they are okay with hanging onto what they have. This still gives them their PR win. They have almost fully land locked Ukraine. They have failed to take Ukraine at its head, so will settle with taking its most valuable asset regarding future aggression and make taking it by surprise attack with ease. 1 hour ago, User said: In total, they have not gained all that much Most of its ocean front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 (edited) 6 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Correct. However, they are okay with hanging onto what they have. This still gives them their PR win. They have almost fully land locked Ukraine. No they have not. Ever bother to look at a map of the Ukraine, and the Russian-held area. For starters, Russia has not gained much of Ukraine's coastline in this war. The Ukrainians still control the entire coastline west of Crimea. 6 hours ago, Perspektiv said: They have failed to take Ukraine at its head, so will settle with taking its most valuable asset regarding future aggression and make taking it by surprise attack with ease. You haven't been paying attention to the war I guess. Ukraine has depleted the Russian navy, by depleting half it's ships, and that is not even counting when Ukraine did to the Kerch bridge. Edited June 18 by DUI_Offender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: Ever bother Yup. A significant portion of their ocean front is under Russian control. 6 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: Ukraine has depleted the Russian navy Russia still enjoys significant advantages, regarding the respective military capability. Negotiations is the only way to end this nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 4 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Negotiations is the only way to end this nonsense. Then why isn't Russia begging to negotiate on terms that are not so beneficial to them? 17 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Correct. However, they are okay with hanging onto what they have. This still gives them their PR win. They have almost fully land locked Ukraine. They have failed to take Ukraine at its head, so will settle with taking its most valuable asset regarding future aggression and make taking it by surprise attack with ease. So.... taking what you say here, you want to leave Russia with all these advantages? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted June 18 Author Report Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, User said: you want to leave Russia with all these advantages? No, but am also a realist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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