Is sola scriptura true?

[blackbird]

20 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

I've been through this with you already.

I doubt very much that you read the information.  You blindly believe what you've been told by the RCC and won't even read any other information explaining clearly that Jesus often spoke figuratively.   He was obviously speaking figuratively when he spoke about eating his flesh and blood.

First of all it is cannibalism to interpret it literally.  Cannibalism is forbidden in the Bible.

Secondly it is irrational to believe priests have the power to change bread and wine into Jesus' flesh and blood, like some kind of magicians.  Where does the Bible give priests such power?  It doesn't.

When Jesus said those words, he was sitting right there in his flesh and blood.  The elements were not literally changed into his flesh and blood.  

The Catholic church admits the elements still appear as bread and wine.  That is because they are bread and wine.  They obviously are not changed.  It is nonsense to believe they are changed in a million places in the world.  Why would God do that?  It is nonsense in the extreme.

When Jesus spoke figuratively he had a meaning for his words.  If Jesus is not physically in the elements and he is not, then you are committing the sin of idolatry by worshiping the elements as if God is in them.  Clearly that is what the priests and people are doing.  They are worshiping the elements because they think Jesus is in them.  Priests carry them in their special container and hold it up as if they are carrying God in their hands, which is false. That is idolatry.  That has nothing to do with worshiping Jesus because he is not in the elements.

Again, Jesus spoke repeatedly in figurative language.  So what justifies cherry picking one verse and claiming it is literal when it contradicts all reason?

[blackbird]

44 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

Two things, first Jesus said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. 

Second, James is clear we are not saved by faith alone. 

BTW not a single one of those verses says faith alone. AGAIN you confuse volume with accuracy. 

You must be totally blind or willfully so.

Any thinking person would understand one doesn't need to use the exact words "faith alone" to have the same meaning.  The countless verses I quoted say repeatedly that it is by believing or faith or similar thoughts.  It is being dishonest to deny that and claim they must say the words "faith alone" when the verses clearly demonstrate salvation is by faith.

Again you cherry pick one or two verses and misinterpret them in a way that contradicts countless other verses that say salvation is by faith.  You still haven't learned the basic principle that the Bible must be interpreted in a way that does not contradict itself.

[Yakuda]

46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I doubt very much that you read the information.  You blindly believe what you've been told by the RCC and won't even read any other information explaining clearly that Jesus often spoke figuratively.   He was obviously speaking figuratively when he spoke about eating his flesh and blood.

First of all it is cannibalism to interpret it literally.  Cannibalism is forbidden in the Bible.

Secondly it is irrational to believe priests have the power to change bread and wine into Jesus' flesh and blood, like some kind of magicians.  Where does the Bible give priests such power?  It doesn't.

When Jesus said those words, he was sitting right there in his flesh and blood.  The elements were not literally changed into his flesh and blood.  

The Catholic church admits the elements still appear as bread and wine.  That is because they are bread and wine.  They obviously are not changed.  It is nonsense to believe they are changed in a million places in the world.  Why would God do that?  It is nonsense in the extreme.

When Jesus spoke figuratively he had a meaning for his words.  If Jesus is not physically in the elements and he is not, then you are committing the sin of idolatry by worshiping the elements as if God is in them.  Clearly that is what the priests and people are doing.  They are worshiping the elements because they think Jesus is in them.  Priests carry them in their special container and hold it up as if they are carrying God in their hands, which is false. That is idolatry.  That has nothing to do with worshiping Jesus because he is not in the elements.

Again, Jesus spoke repeatedly in figurative language.  So what justifies cherry picking one verse and claiming it is literal when it contradicts all reason?

I've told you before, which is proof you dont listen, that volume is not synonymous with accurate or true. Until you figure that out I don't really care what you post. 

[Yakuda]

53 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You must be totally blind or willfully so.

Any thinking person would understand one doesn't need to use the exact words "faith alone" to have the same meaning.  The countless verses I quoted say repeatedly that it is by believing or faith or similar thoughts.  It is being dishonest to deny that and claim they must say the words "faith alone" when the verses clearly demonstrate salvation is by faith.

Again you cherry pick one or two verses and misinterpret them in a way that contradicts countless other verses that say salvation is by faith.  You still haven't learned the basic principle that the Bible must be interpreted in a way that does not contradict itself.

And Jesus said, whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved. How many times does Jesus need to say something before you decide he must mean what he says? Salvation IS by faith but NOT faith ALONE which is what heretics claim. 

The Bible doesn't contradict itself you contradict the Bible with your solas. You follow Luther not Jesus. 

Edited February 21, 2024 by Yakuda

[Gator]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:28 PM, blackbird said:

The first verse you gave says:

" 2  Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."  1 Corinthians 11:2

The word traditions could also be used in place of ordinances.

Paul says in this verse keep the ordinances or traditions, as I delivered them to you.  So these are referring to teachings that Paul already gave them.  That would be his teachings which are in Scripture.  The traditions he is referring to would be found in Scripture, not something new invented that is apart from Scripture or contrary to Scripture.  Paul never taught that his disciples could invent new doctrines or practices that are not taught in Scripture.

" 3  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5  But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6  And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."  Matthew 15:3-6

Clearly Jesus condemned the tradition of the Pharisees which contradicted the commandment of God.  What is the commandment of God?  It is the law and the prophets, that is, God's word, the Holy Scriptures.

 

Amen. Not all Christian traditions are from God.  

As you cited from the KJV...

Matthew 15:3 ESV

He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

[Gator]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:23 PM, Yakuda said:

That 5% may be very important. Who determined what you claim here? Who said they can't be trusted? On what authority of they speak? 

BTW your supposedly 95% accurate bible uses the word traditions in  Thessalonians.

 

I believe that incorrect translations have led to incorrect doctrines.  I do not believe that the King James Version is fully accurate. 

[Gator]

Here is my take on faith versus works and I will provide scripture that, I believe, supports my understanding.  

We don't have to volunteer at a homeless shelter to go to Heaven, aka "saved".  However, if we walk down the street every day and habitually ignore the suffering of people around us as they ask us for a bite to eat or $1 to buy a soda, then we have essentially denied the faith.  

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus describes sending away believers!  So, yes, there are people who have faith that Jesus exists and that he died and was resurrected but don't follow what Jesus asked them to do and so they will NOT (apparently) be going straight to Heaven.  

James 2:20-24 ESV

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Gator]

On 2/7/2024 at 9:50 AM, Yakuda said:

Protestants will often refer to 2 Timothy 3:16 as proof that sola scriptura is true.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 esv

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

I believe that the original scriptures are sufficient and, as Paul wrote, "complete".  Accordingly, the original scriptures are all that one needs, according to Paul.  Therefore, and speaking only for myself, I am skeptical of believing doctrines that came about long after the writings of the original apostles and their disciples.  Paul actually warned against this.  For instance:

Galatians 1:8 esv

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Maybe Mohammad should have followed what Paul wrote about angels preaching things that were contrary to the "gospel".  

Surah 96: The Clot (96:1-5)

This short passage consists of the very first words that were revealed to Muhammad in the cave outside of Mecca. When Muhammad was forty years old, he went to Mt. Hira, outside of Mecca, to have a spiritual retreat by himself. During the night, the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and spoke these words to him...

 

  

[Yakuda]

7 hours ago, Gator said:

 

I believe that incorrect translations have led to incorrect doctrines.  I do not believe that the King James Version is fully accurate. 

Like which ones?

I agree especially since it removes books from the real bible. 

[Yakuda]

2 hours ago, Gator said:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 esv

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

I believe that the original scriptures are sufficient and, as Paul wrote, "complete".  Accordingly, the original scriptures are all that one needs, according to Paul.  Therefore, and speaking only for myself, I am skeptical of believing doctrines that came about long after the writings of the original apostles and their disciples.  Paul actually warned against this.  For instance:

Galatians 1:8 esv

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Maybe Mohammad should have followed what Paul wrote about angels preaching things that were contrary to the "gospel".  

Surah 96: The Clot (96:1-5)

This short passage consists of the very first words that were revealed to Muhammad in the cave outside of Mecca. When Muhammad was forty years old, he went to Mt. Hira, outside of Mecca, to have a spiritual retreat by himself. During the night, the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and spoke these words to him...

 

  

That doesn't say scripture alone. A "complete" car has 4 tires so that means all you need for a complete car is 4 tires? Really? Why do people abandon logic and reasoning when they read the Bible? 

I agree but your assuming everything and anything after the "original apostles and their disciples" is useless. That's a logical error and doesn't jive with scripture. Behind that do you know who Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch are? 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Yakuda

[Gator]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

Like which ones?

I agree especially since it removes books from the real bible. 

That's a good and fair question but I prefer to save that for another thread.  

[Yakuda]

6 minutes ago, Gator said:

That's a good and fair question but I prefer to save that for another thread.  

Ok. Why not pick mine and start the thread? Looking forward to it. 

[Gator]

1 hour ago, Yakuda said:

That doesn't say scripture alone. A "complete" car has 4 tires so that means all you need for a complete car is 4 tires? Really? Why do people abandon logic and reasoning when they read the Bible? 

I agree but your assuming everything and anything after the "original apostles and their disciples" is useless. That's a logical error and doesn't jive with scripture. Behind that do you know who Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch are? 

I am sorry to differ with you, my brother.  As Paul wrote, the scriptures are sufficient for the man of God to be complete.  I believe Paul's statement to be correct.  

Let me ask you, please.  If a person believes in Jesus and obeys his commandments as spelled out in the Bible, are they saved or is there something else they must believe or do that isn't found in the original scriptures?

[blackbird]

10 hours ago, Gator said:

I do not believe that the King James Version is fully accurate. 

Read this book for free online or you can order a copy, possibly a used one from Alibris for a little less expense than a new one.

New Age Bible Versions : G. A. Riplinger, Gail : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The KJV is completely 100% accurate because God promised to preserve his word in various verses.  Do you believe God?

 

[Gator]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Read this book for free online or you can order a copy, possibly a used one from Alibris for a little less expense than a new one.

New Age Bible Versions : G. A. Riplinger, Gail : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The KJV is completely 100% accurate because God promised to preserve his word in various verses.  Do you believe God?

 

Thank you, my brother. 

[Yakuda]

1 hour ago, Gator said:

I am sorry to differ with you, my brother.  As Paul wrote, the scriptures are sufficient for the man of God to be complete.  I believe Paul's statement to be correct.  

Let me ask you, please.  If a person believes in Jesus and obeys his commandments as spelled out in the Bible, are they saved or is there something else they must believe or do that isn't found in the original scriptures?

You can differ all you like but you've been told "complete" means the same as "only". It doesn't. 

AND is the optimal word. If you only do one of the things on each side of AND you have NOTHING. 

[Gator]

4 minutes ago, Yakuda said:

You can differ all you like but you've been told "complete" means the same as "only". It doesn't. 

AND is the optimal word. If you only do one of the things on each side of AND you have NOTHING. 

Ok my brother.  Thank you.

[Yakuda]

15 minutes ago, Gator said:

Ok my brother.  Thank you.

It's your choice to believe what you will.

Scripture is quite clear faith alone is useless but some people think it's an either/or proposition. It's not. It's both/and but it's up to you. 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Yakuda

[blackbird]

6 hours ago, Gator said:

Here is my take on faith versus works and I will provide scripture that, I believe, supports my understanding.  

We don't have to volunteer at a homeless shelter to go to Heaven, aka "saved".  However, if we walk down the street every day and habitually ignore the suffering of people around us as they ask us for a bite to eat or $1 to buy a soda, then we have essentially denied the faith.  

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus describes sending away believers!  So, yes, there are people who have faith that Jesus exists and that he died and was resurrected but don't follow what Jesus asked them to do and so they will NOT (apparently) be going straight to Heaven.  

James 2:20-24 ESV

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

Be careful when speaking about that verse with Yakuda.  He is a diehard Romanist and rejects salvation by grace through faith.  He is a polished RC defender.  It is unbiblical.  He believes in salvation by faith plus works and uses James 2:20-24 to promote Rome's false teaching.

Over a hundred verses teach salvation is by faith alone.  Once a person is saved, they are saved for eternity and then they do good works, but not to earn their way to heaven as Yakuda claims.  That is contrary to Romans and especially Galatians.  In Galatians, Paul strongly rebuked those who taught salvation by following the law.  

Salvation is entirely by what Jesus did on the cross.  One must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and believe he died for them personally.  Then they become a child of God.   Works has nothing to do with that.  Claiming works must be part of it to EARN salvation is a rejection of what Jesus did for sinners on the cross.  It is a false religion.  

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, Yakuda said:

That doesn't say scripture alone. A "complete" car has 4 tires so that means all you need for a complete car is 4 tires? Really? Why do people abandon logic and reasoning when they read the Bible? 

I agree but your assuming everything and anything after the "original apostles and their disciples" is useless. That's a logical error and doesn't jive with scripture. Behind that do you know who Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch are? 

REmember the Romanist uses that verse and twists it to mean salvation is by faith plus works.  That contradicts many, many verse in the rest of the bible.  One cannot take one verse and interpret it in a way that contradicts countless other verses that clearly say salvation is by faith alone.   The proper way to interpret that verse is that a Christian should have evidence that he is a believer by the kind of life he lives.  He should give evidence.  But his salvation was because of grace through faith, not of works as Ephesians 2:8,9 says.  That is how James must be interpreted.  The Bible cannot contradict itself.   

[Gator]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Over a hundred verses teach salvation is by faith alone. 

Well, Matthew 7:21-23 demonstrates that even some with faith will be rejected by Jesus.  

[Yakuda]

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

REmember the Romanist uses that verse and twists it to mean salvation is by faith plus works.  That contradicts many, many verse in the rest of the bible.  One cannot take one verse and interpret it in a way that contradicts countless other verses that clearly say salvation is by faith alone.   The proper way to interpret that verse is that a Christian should have evidence that he is a believer by the kind of life he lives.  He should give evidence.  But his salvation was because of grace through faith, not of works as Ephesians 2:8,9 says.  That is how James must be interpreted.  The Bible cannot contradict itself.   

It's not twisted it's faith AND works. Faith without works is dead James 2:24. The only twisting going in here is with you chubby checker. 

Whenever DOES the will of my heavenly Father is my brother and my sister. Matt 12:50. Notice it's NOT whoever has faith is my brother and my sister. I give you credit though for trying to defend your heresy. 

Let me ask you a question, what saves you, Jesus dying in the cross or reciting your magic incantation? 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Gator said:

Well, Matthew 7:21-23 demonstrates that even some with faith will be rejected by Jesus.  

Exactly correct!

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Gator said:

Well, Matthew 7:21-23 demonstrates that even some with faith will be rejected by Jesus.  

"

Matthew 7:21-23 meaning

Jesus asserts He will refuse many people entrance into His kingdom on the Day of Judgment because they did not know Him or follow His Father’s will. Despite their claims of performing mighty works in His name, their deeds and hearts violated God’s law."

Matthew 7:21-23 meaning | TheBibleSays.com

That may be a difficult passage to understand.  It may require some time to study what different commentaries say.  You can google them.  Not every commentary may be accurate, but some may help to understand.  

"1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: " Romans 5:1 KJV

Justification is by faith alone.

1 minute ago, Yakuda said:

Let me ask you a question, what saves you, Jesus dying in the cross or reciting your magic incantation? 

You obviously proclaim that you can justify yourself by faith plus works.  Of course Jesus dying on the cross for me saved me, not my own works.  You are trusting in yourself to help save you.  Therefore you cannot claim you are saved.  You simply don't know.

[Yakuda]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Be careful when speaking about that verse with Yakuda.  He is a diehard Romanist and rejects salvation by grace through faith.  He is a polished RC defender.  It is unbiblical.  He believes in salvation by faith plus works and uses James 2:20-24 to promote Rome's false teaching.

Over a hundred verses teach salvation is by faith alone.  Once a person is saved, they are saved for eternity and then they do good works, but not to earn their way to heaven as Yakuda claims.  That is contrary to Romans and especially Galatians.  In Galatians, Paul strongly rebuked those who taught salvation by following the law.  

Salvation is entirely by what Jesus did on the cross.  One must accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and believe he died for them personally.  Then they become a child of God.   Works has nothing to do with that.  Claiming works must be part of it to EARN salvation is a rejection of what Jesus did for sinners on the cross.  It is a false religion.  

This is why I don't respect heretics like yourself cite where I said salvation isn't by grace through faith. You're lying which isnt a Christian value the last time I checked. But are you Christian? 

2 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"

Matthew 7:21-23 meaning

Jesus asserts He will refuse many people entrance into His kingdom on the Day of Judgment because they did not know Him or follow His Father’s will. Despite their claims of performing mighty works in His name, their deeds and hearts violated God’s law."

Matthew 7:21-23 meaning | TheBibleSays.com

That may be a difficult passage to understand.  It may require some time to study what different commentaries say.  You can google them.  Not every commentary may be accurate, but some may help to understand.  

"1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: " Romans 5:1 KJV

Justification is by faith alone.

You obviously proclaim that you can justify yourself by faith plus works.  Of course Jesus dying on the cross for me saved me, not my own works.  You are trusting in yourself to help save you.  Therefore you cannot claim you are saved.  You simply don't know.

You didn't answer my question. Again this is why i don't respect heretics. 

[blackbird]

Just now, Yakuda said:

This is why I don't respect heretics like yourself cite where I said salvation isn't by grace through faith. You're lying which isnt a Christian value the last time I checked. But are you Christian? 

I don't see much value in trying to talk to you.  You falsely accuse constantly.  Your religion is a false one which teaches salvation by faith plus works plus sacraments, plus confessing to a priest, belong to the RC church, etc. What about purgatory?  Do you believe in that too?