Child Discipline

[tml12]

The most annoying people in public are parents who allow their young children to dominate them physically and verbally, and who are reduced to "negotiating" (or even begging) with them over their behaviour.

If I told my parents "no" or ignored a command to stop doing something which was disruptive, destructive or rude, I'd be whacked upside the head. And I turned out fine.

I was spanked by my parents and my father always tells it to me like it is (maybe that's why I hate bullshit).

I haven't lived with my parents in a long time but I still think about the positive effect their raising had on me and how I believe it has helped me to become a better person.

Parents who allow their children to take advantage of them in public are insecure in their parenting.

[YankAbroad]

Beat 'em senseless, that's what I say!

[moderateamericain]

Beat 'em senseless, that's what I say!

I can count the times i was spanked on my hands, and i think i got the belt 4 times. The first time i got the belt i was 12 years old. I told a jewish girl that i was a german and i was gonna cook her. (/stupid) Funny thing was about 4 years later i ended up taking the girl out for one of those high school month long relationships (also /stupid) The 2nd time i got the belt was about 14, for swearing at a teacher. The third time was for lying to my father, and the last time was for Fighting my father (haha). All in all i turned about pretty well. When i did something that did not really warrant a spaking, my father would sit me in a chair. Hey wore glasses so he would look at me over the top of his glasses and in a calm rational voice would say "Do you know why we are here?" It wasnt so much punishment as interrogation. My father was excellent at making the punishment fit the crime. First time i came home tipsy he want and bought a bottle of Black velvet and made me drink the whole bottle straight up. Being all of 17 i threw it up. Learned my lesson on excessive drinking.

[tml12]

Beat 'em senseless, that's what I say!

I can count the times i was spanked on my hands, and i think i got the belt 4 times. The first time i got the belt i was 12 years old. I told a jewish girl that i was a german and i was gonna cook her. (/stupid) Funny thing was about 4 years later i ended up taking the girl out for one of those high school month long relationships (also /stupid) The 2nd time i got the belt was about 14, for swearing at a teacher. The third time was for lying to my father, and the last time was for Fighting my father (haha). All in all i turned about pretty well. When i did something that did not really warrant a spaking, my father would sit me in a chair. Hey wore glasses so he would look at me over the top of his glasses and in a calm rational voice would say "Do you know why we are here?" It wasnt so much punishment as interrogation. My father was excellent at making the punishment fit the crime. First time i came home tipsy he want and bought a bottle of Black velvet and made me drink the whole bottle straight up. Being all of 17 i threw it up. Learned my lesson on excessive drinking.

I know this is really random but I really like Black Velvet and I don't think you can buy it anywhere in Montreal...

[newbie]

I agree with Betsy.... you are not your child's friend.

There is a huge difference between spanking and beating -- a child that is beaten doesn't learn anything except beatings are how to get someone to do what you want. Spankings are a consequence of bad behaviour.

I'd like you to define the two. My dad used to "spank" me with a short piece of plastic pipe. Where does that fall, spanking or beating. This is a very slippery slope. A swat on the behind is one thing, but using objects to spank are akin to beating.

[betsy]

I agree with Betsy.... you are not your child's friend.

There is a huge difference between spanking and beating -- a child that is beaten doesn't learn anything except beatings are how to get someone to do what you want. Spankings are a consequence of bad behaviour.

I'd like you to define the two. My dad used to "spank" me with a short piece of plastic pipe. Where does that fall, spanking or beating. This is a very slippery slope. A swat on the behind is one thing, but using objects to spank are akin to beating.

My mom was the spanker in the family. Her favorite weapon of choice was the almighty slipper! Only on the behind.

My dad spanked me only once in my life (his slipper)...and it was not even my fault! My brother who is 15 years older than me had misunderstood a scenario entirely that involved a corner store (something like a Mac's Milk here). After learning that I got into trouble with my dad, the old lady who owned the store came to him and told him that she voluntarily gave me the soda pop for free!

Inspite of those spankings, I hold so many treasured memories of them. I am blessed to have such wonderful parents.

My husband's aunt (who babysat them) wielded the wooden spoon! I guess I prefer the slipper.

This aunt btw is always spoke of with affection. The wooden spoon had become a source of nostalgic humor.

But true, nowadays bare hand is better.

[Insom Elvis]

So let me get this straight: the best way to show kids that hitting is not okay is to hit them?

Our jail system is full of ex-kids who were never taught that actions have consequences.

I'd really liek to see the evidence that shows kids who aren't spanked are more likely to commit crimes. I'd be far more willing to bet that kids who get hit by their parents are more likely to grow up to see physical violence as an acceptable solution to their problems.

Here's an example for you. I've been loving but strict with my 5 year-old daughter since birth. When she requests my attention in the form of asking me a question like "Can I have a drink?" I respond immediately. If she were to request my attention, like she used to, by making a scene in public, she'd get spanked. If anyone were to report this as a crime, let them do so. If society decides this makes me unfit to parent, so be it, I wont parent by someone else's doctrine just because someone decided it isn't cool to spank kids this decade. My little girl no longer throws tantrum in public places under my watch, EVER. I never really hurt her or gave her bruises, just a little swat to show I was serious. A vast majority of kids raised in the 50's were spanked, many even beaten. Are the vast majority of people from the 50's in prison? Do they run around randomly hitting people? Not that I've seen. If your kid slaps you in the face and you calmly tell them not to, how are your showing parental authority? They're not foreign diplomats to be negotiated with, they're young learners and need to know their limits. If the kid that slaps his parents is never taught that people will hit back, when does he learn for himself? When he gets his ass kicked for hitting the wrong person, and if that's what you want for your kid, they'd be better off without your guidance.

After reading the post after mine, I must add the following: "Do not spank your kids when you are stressed out towards them or anything else!" If i spank my kid, it's a light swat, just enough to say "Hey, I'm telling you that what you're doing is bad." If you punish them when you're angry, you could go overboard and everyone involved would regret it.

[Concerned]

So let me get this straight: the best way to show kids that hitting is not okay is to hit them?

Our jail system is full of ex-kids who were never taught that actions have consequences.

I'd really liek to see the evidence that shows kids who aren't spanked are more likely to commit crimes. I'd be far more willing to bet that kids who get hit by their parents are more likely to grow up to see physical violence as an acceptable solution to their problems.

And how do we know that this child did not learn hitting her parents from the parents? If dad is a spanker perhaps she learned it from him ?

As a parent of two very boyish boys, I have tried everything, spanking among disciplinary action I have resorted to when ultimately frustrated and usually when I'm on the higher stress side and have decided that I'm just not sure what else to do ....

My best friend has two kids same age as mine and is vehemently opposed to spanking....she says its a form of parental temper tantrum.

Having used her methods of discipline and also the spanking method I would say in the long run her methods are far more productive. They require more patience. When I can actually stick to a program of discipline that does not rely on violence, I see that the results are better and longer lasting.

As far as the use of force is concerned, the observations I have of my children are that if I use it, they use it. If I am to spank them and show them the example of control by force, they tend to follow this example in their behaviour towards each other.

[Slavik44]

I think it is a very dangerous and slippery slope to be on when we equate Spanking for punishment. While Punishment needs to be used for control of children when they do something wrong, it is a mistake to think that the form of punishment must be a spanking. Every parent tells their children that they are unique, one of a kind and special, it seems somewhat absurd then that peoples first hand recomendation for punishment is always spanking, as if spanking is the only punishment or the best form of punishment for any and every child, completely and utterly absurd. Perhaps before anyone jumps on the spanking bandwagon they shoudl first try multiple methods of punishment in good faith to the method and not some half assed job. Perhpas you coudl sit down and watch super nany for a while, hey she seems to get some of the biggest brats in the world under control, with out spanking, in less then a week.

I think sometimes spanking is over rated, a guy at work went on about how spanking was the best method of punishment and it worked so well for his kids, of course hsi daughter got knocked up at age 14. For me I say bulshit to the effects of spanking, it never stopped me from doing anythign bad, I never had that thought I might get spanked in my mind at all. It wasn't until after I did something wrong that I tried to cover it up and when I couldn't cover it up I got scared shitless. Just the word spanking was enough to scare the hell out of me, the word is etched in my mind as being nothing more then a crude form of psychological terrorism. But when you're having fun out playing in the mud you never think that, hey I might get in trouble for this. I have a very big bone to pick with people who wave spanking around as some sort of miracle cure for all societies ills. Its not, there are better methods, more effective methods, and less harmfull methods, Punishment might be better then no punishment at all but don't belive for a second that spanking is always the best method of punishment, or neccasary for a proper up brining.

[Insom Elvis]

Well you have some good points that I must agree with, and some extreme points of view whose origonal meaning I must defend.

First of all, you're right, not everyone should spank their kids and it is definately not a miracle cure. I don't know you and I can't tell you how to spank your kid to invoke dicipline without causing emotional damage so if you're unsure you might want to ask someone else. Second, yeah we played in the mud and got spanked for it, the threat of being spanked stayed fresh in our minds and by the time we grew into responsible adults and had made a few minor mistakes, we had it well engrained in our minds that EVERY ACTION HAS AN OPPOSITE AND EQUAL REACTION. So that when we considered stealing money from an ATM, we knew that if we did there could be consequences if we were caught, rather than being raised into adulthood by parents who negotiated with us as to wether or not wer agreed with out punishment of a harsh scolding. Where do you think these guys get the attitude that they can do whatever they want and noone can stop them, never showing remorse? Is it because their dad spanked them for shoplifting at 5 years old? Don't make me laugh. How about the fact that by only reinforcing the behaviour positively, the parents condoned all behaviour, on different scales, but never helped that childs mind to comprehend that there are consequences in the real world? Try your method on a criminal, when he shoots you in the gut, make sure he knows damn well what he's done wrong by saying "that is wrong," and send him on his way. I'm not saying spanking is absolutely necessary, but if you're totally against an age-old remedy that worked for generation after generation until some nut decided it was suddenly wrong, ior some asshole decided to beat his kids and make people see it as something worse than what it is, you're only limiting your resources and possibly defending your kids right to walk all over you.

[Slavik44]

Well you have some good points that I must agree with, and some extreme points of view whose origonal meaning I must defend.

First of all, you're right, not everyone should spank their kids and it is definately not a miracle cure. I don't know you and I can't tell you how to spank your kid to invoke dicipline without causing emotional damage so if you're unsure you might want to ask someone else. Second, yeah we played in the mud and got spanked for it, the threat of being spanked stayed fresh in our minds and by the time we grew into responsible adults and had made a few minor mistakes, we had it well engrained in our minds that EVERY ACTION HAS AN OPPOSITE AND EQUAL REACTION. So that when we considered stealing money from an ATM, we knew that if we did there could be consequences if we were caught, rather than being raised into adulthood by parents who negotiated with us as to wether or not wer agreed with out punishment of a harsh scolding. Where do you think these guys get the attitude that they can do whatever they want and noone can stop them, never showing remorse? Is it because their dad spanked them for shoplifting at 5 years old? Don't make me laugh. How about the fact that by only reinforcing the behaviour positively, the parents condoned all behaviour, on different scales, but never helped that childs mind to comprehend that there are consequences in the real world? Try your method on a criminal, when he shoots you in the gut, make sure he knows damn well what he's done wrong by saying "that is wrong," and send him on his way. I'm not saying spanking is absolutely necessary, but if you're totally against an age-old remedy that worked for generation after generation until some nut decided it was suddenly wrong, ior some asshole decided to beat his kids and make people see it as something worse than what it is, you're only limiting your resources and possibly defending your kids right to walk all over you.

But is force required to teach that lesson? Listen if/when I have kids, I would make sure they know when their actions were wrong, I simply belive that spanking is not neccasary to accomplish such a thing. I belive punishment of some sort is neccasary, but that punishment doesn't have to be a spanking. Saying now little boby it isn't nice to hit, will not accomplish anything, I think thats probabley worse then spanking, doing nothing that is. But saying little bobby its not nice to hit and because you have hit me this is going to happen...., not only do you let them know its wrong to hit but you also show their is consequences associated with certain actions. Showing that actions have consequences is important, but I don't belive spanking is the only way to do so. For instance in the case of moderateamerican and his jewish comments, why not ground him and take him to a holocaust museam? Consequences for his actions and the ability to learn why such words are so offensive. Generally after you learn or read some first hand documents about the holocaust, you loose all apetite to make such jokes.

[Insom Elvis]

Well you have some good points that I must agree with, and some extreme points of view whose origonal meaning I must defend.

First of all, you're right, not everyone should spank their kids and it is definately not a miracle cure. I don't know you and I can't tell you how to spank your kid to invoke dicipline without causing emotional damage so if you're unsure you might want to ask someone else. Second, yeah we played in the mud and got spanked for it, the threat of being spanked stayed fresh in our minds and by the time we grew into responsible adults and had made a few minor mistakes, we had it well engrained in our minds that EVERY ACTION HAS AN OPPOSITE AND EQUAL REACTION. So that when we considered stealing money from an ATM, we knew that if we did there could be consequences if we were caught, rather than being raised into adulthood by parents who negotiated with us as to wether or not wer agreed with out punishment of a harsh scolding. Where do you think these guys get the attitude that they can do whatever they want and noone can stop them, never showing remorse? Is it because their dad spanked them for shoplifting at 5 years old? Don't make me laugh. How about the fact that by only reinforcing the behaviour positively, the parents condoned all behaviour, on different scales, but never helped that childs mind to comprehend that there are consequences in the real world? Try your method on a criminal, when he shoots you in the gut, make sure he knows damn well what he's done wrong by saying "that is wrong," and send him on his way. I'm not saying spanking is absolutely necessary, but if you're totally against an age-old remedy that worked for generation after generation until some nut decided it was suddenly wrong, ior some asshole decided to beat his kids and make people see it as something worse than what it is, you're only limiting your resources and possibly defending your kids right to walk all over you.

But is force required to teach that lesson? Listen if/when I have kids, I would make sure they know when their actions were wrong, I simply belive that spanking is not neccasary to accomplish such a thing. I belive punishment of some sort is neccasary, but that punishment doesn't have to be a spanking. Saying now little boby it isn't nice to hit, will not accomplish anything, I think thats probabley worse then spanking, doing nothing that is. But saying little bobby its not nice to hit and because you have hit me this is going to happen...., not only do you let them know its wrong to hit but you also show their is consequences associated with certain actions. Showing that actions have consequences is important, but I don't belive spanking is the only way to do so. For instance in the case of moderateamerican and his jewish comments, why not ground him and take him to a holocaust museam? Consequences for his actions and the ability to learn why such words are so offensive. Generally after you learn or read some first hand documents about the holocaust, you loose all apetite to make such jokes.

Woah I think you're arguing against me but I totally agree. Let me state this again, spanking is absolutely not the only way to punish your kids! At a very young age, a little swat on the butt can do wonders to get a kids attention but when you get into the years where they decide Naziism is cool, hell I've been there with my girlfriend's boy. Trust me as a parent some things change if / when you have kids, they always do but I like you outlook on the anti-semitism. Now in my case, the boy was kicked out of school for drawing swastikas on his homework and a previous list of well, anti-authority gestures. In his case, I doubt the holocaust museum would do him much good, he'd just blow it off and think about something else. but every kid is different right?

As it turns out, the boy has no respect for the Nazi party whatsoever and just likes the designs of the Swastika and Iron cross, I just had to help him understand why there are people out there that take those symbols very personally and why he shouldn't flaunt them. Especially the swastika, that was a given. It was by chance, after having his hand sutured by a Jewish doctor who shuddered at the sight of his iron cross ring that he finally came to understand a bit of what I was talking about. For any of you that have a case like this, introduce your kid to a Jew who by any other respect is just another person then introduce the subject and let them speak their point of view. It's amazing the changes you see when the kid refers Naziism to a real person they know rather than a race they've never had contact with.

Oh and with spanking, maybe a time-out works for you, do whatever you can and if you succeed without spanking, great, but if you let your kid slap you in the face someone is doing something terribly wrong.

[BeckyChandler]

As a childcare provider, I sense a certain wariness among parents in disciplining their children. Society had slowly turned that everyone can interfere how a parent deals with her child.

Let me just make it clear that as a care-provider, corporal punishment is not acceptable in my daycare.

I believe that only a parent can use it as a form of discipline.

Here's an example.

A 4 year old child was being picked up by her mom. The mom was sitting on her heels as she puts the shoes on her child who was sitting on the steps, so she's eye-level with her. The child started becoming difficult and the mother tried to cajole her to listen. The child suddenly slapped her mother soundly on the cheek. The mother said, "Please don't hit me. It hurts." The child responded by doing exactly the same thing. Thhe mother repeated "Please don't hit me. It hurts." The child hit her again.

All this time, my other children were witnessing this display.

The next day, it was the father who picked up the child. She was the last one in my daycare that time.

She started being difficult....and she hit her dad. The dad said, "Hey, no hitting." I notice that he's conscious of my presence, and holding back.

FInally I said...."Well Paul, you're the dad. Don't worry about me" Then I went out of the house and left them.

The girl was crying but behaved when they came out. I think Dad spanked her.

Was I wrong? Did I do the right thing?

[BeckyChandler]

This is the post I put on a parenting board a couple years ago--

"Four year ago our two daughters were ages twelve and seven (and our son was three). We were liberal parents--and adamantly against spanking--I mean zealously, radically , and outspoken. Our twelve year old was adjudicated a delinquent that year. She was constantly truant, smoking, experimenting with alcohol and drugs, and generally out of control. Her younger sister was showing tendancies of following in her footsteps.

We were spending a fortune in time and money on counselors. probation officers, psychologists, psychiatrists, summer camps, and etc. The situatiion was only getting worse. The strain was getting to the point where our marriage was profoundly affected and in danger. One of the counselors suggested that we take a long family vacation. We followed her advise. We booked a three week vacation in Disney World.

The first week of vacation was an expensive transfer of our situation.

One day in a tourist trap I noticed one of those novelty paddles. It had the logo:"Applied Psychology!!--grab handle and apply firmly to bare bottom as needed-- use liberally" With our experience with psychology I was amused--but intigued. I bought the paddle.

When I returned to our hotel room I told the girls about the paddle. The oldest one laughed in my face. At that moment I made the decision to actually use it. After lengthy protests and a brief struggle the paddle was used according to the instructions. Our youngest thought this was amusing and started teasing her sister. She then got her bare bottom paddled. For the rest of the vacation they each got spanked at least once a day--but there was definite improvement--and the last week we actually began to enjoy ourselves as a family.

The spankings continued --but gradually became less frequent. The results were remarkable. Our daughters are no longer juvenile delinquents. The oldest is a straight A student, cheerleader, active in a youth church group. We no longer worry about her younger sister either. Likewise she is a good student, involved in girls athletics and many school activities

The only proof I have that spankings are an important and valid part of child rearing is my own experience.. But I do know that in our case spanking truly did save our family. If I had to do it over spanking would have been a positive and important component of my child rearing practices from day one.

Despite the "conventional wisdom" that this form of discipline and punishment is wrong I am a firm believer. Most of our friends (I am a second grade teacher and my husband is a lawyer) thought we had lost our marbles when we started our strict parenting. But I don't hear many complaints any more. What I do hear is a lot of complaints about their troubled and obnoxiouis children. "

Becky

[newbie]

The only proof I have that spankings are an important and valid part of child rearing is my own experience.. But I do know that in our case spanking truly did save our family. If I had to do it over spanking would have been a positive and important component of my child rearing practices from day one.

Despite the "conventional wisdom" that this form of discipline and punishment is wrong I am a firm believer. Most of our friends (I am a second grade teacher and my husband is a lawyer) thought we had lost our marbles when we started our strict parenting. But I don't hear many complaints any more. What I do hear is a lot of complaints about their troubled and obnoxiouis children. "

Becky

I don't know. There is something about a 180 pound man hitting/spanking a 40 pound child. My dad hit me with a small plastic pipe and I hated him for years because of it, and feared him as well. It's just too slippery a slope for me. I've used time out with all my kids and other forms of discipline.

[Black Dog]

I call bullshit on the post above newbie's. Spanking a 12 year old is not going to effect any behavioural changes. By the tiem a kid is that age, their patterns are pretty well set. Nope: sounds liek a crock to me.

[Liam]

I have two kids and can say that I have never formally spanked them. If they're misbehaving, I have been known to give a light tap on their bums as I send them to their rooms. It bruises their ego more than anything else and my kids are extremely well-behaved 99% of the time.

There are many ways a parent can discipline without resorting to spanking. Oddly enough, while I don't spank, I have more respect for those parents who occasionally do (within reason) than for the touchy-feely parents who only try reason and begging.

[fixer1]

Corpral punishment is legal for the parents and people given the authoirty to care for the children. This does mean teachers etc. The means must not be that it is causing injury and bruising to any degree but slightly redish. A parent or guardian should never punish a child while he or she is mad, and not in total control. The Supreme Court of Canada has handed down these and other rulings on them.

While some parents will say they will never spank their children, that is fine as long as their children are mindful and do not get into trouble. You must remember though, that once your child is in his or her teens, their peers will probably be harder on them, then any parent or spanking ever was. It is also a time where if you failed to instill proper values on your children, that it will show and probably again be taken out of your hands if repeat offences end the person in courts.

Life is the greatest teacher of all, and while we all know that violence is not to be used, it also should be known that some times you must take a stand for something, and it may well mean physically getting involed. I had a terrible childhood, and a very abusive father, that believed if you were still able to stand you probably were not smacked hard enough. Most of it was for minor things and big things were a wonder that you survived. I am now 55, so that should put a time frame for this. My teachers all know how my parents were and so they never made any calls or said anything to set them off. That was a different time. That all being said and done, I still believe that corpral punishment is useful and good, but only with the restraints I said above. It should also be the last resort action in trying to correct a misbehaved child. They should know that when all else fails that is going to be the final say. You will find kids less likely to push to that level. The trouble is that kids once they have had a life where there never were spanked, get into serious trouble they will simply fall apart when they find that there is a reaction to their acts. That is often sad, but it is better they learn from someone they know is caring for them, then later in life by someone that has no regard for them. My Children will tell you that I seldom ever had to use physical punishment, but when it was used it was done in a way that it was not a beating but a corrective method. They now have their own children to raise, and I hope they do so with the same soft heart strong hand approach.

[RB]

I agree with Betsy.... you are not your child's friend.

There is a huge difference between spanking and beating -- a child that is beaten doesn't learn anything except beatings are how to get someone to do what you want. Spankings are a consequence of bad behaviour.

I'd like you to define the two. My dad used to "spank" me with a short piece of plastic pipe. Where does that fall, spanking or beating. This is a very slippery slope. A swat on the behind is one thing, but using objects to spank are akin to beating.

They hang me with a bicycle tube for undesirable behavior - I saw that old old movie "two mules for sister sarah" - I survived obviously

It is better to appeal to the child intelligence, and use psychology

[no1important]

Corpral punishment is legal for the parents and people given the authoirty to care for the children. This does mean teachers etc. The means must not be that it is causing injury and bruising to any degree but slightly redish. A parent or guardian should never punish a child while he or she is mad, and not in total control. The Supreme Court of Canada has handed down these and other rulings on them.

Top court upholds spanking law

Parents will not face criminal charges for "minor" corporal punishment of children aged two through 12.

Corporal punishment unacceptable for children under two and for teenagers.

No use of implements other than the open hand, such as rulers or belts.

No striking of child on face or head.

Discipline must be for "educational" or "corrective" purposes, not motivated by anger or frustration.

There must be no lasting bodily harm.

Punishment must not be "inhuman" or "degrading."

Corporal punishment in schools is unacceptable. Teachers may restrain students, for example to escort them from classroom, but must not hit them.

It is a shame in this day and age people think they have to hit their kids. We should join the likes of Austria, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Italy, Latvia, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Sweden, Ukraine and ban this outdated barbaric practice.

[Drea]

There should be courses for parents to be, on the difference between a spanking and a beating.

A spanking is acceptable for children under 12 (I remember clearly my last one at age 11). My parents would use a "switch" -- us kids would have to go out and "cut our own willow" -- this did 2 things -- it made us REALLY THINK about what we did, and it gave our parents time to calm down before the spanking. I survived. I have no lasting scars, emotionally or physically.

I've spanked my son twice in his life (he's 12 now). I used a belt. I'd never spank with my hand, it's simply too easy to "wallop the kid into next week".

Those parents who "spank" every 5 minutes (we've all seen a parent spank a toddler's butt or slap their hands for every little infraction) take the "power" out of the spanking because the kid simply gets used to it -- then it's constant beating, not corrective spanking.

Those parents who "beg and plead" with their child to behave are simply undermining their power and I cringe when I think of how they will be treated when their non-spanked kid becomes a teen.

I'm all for the soft heart -- strong hands approach. After all, if a kid has no respect for his parents, he's not going to have any respect for authority figures later on.

[betsy]

This is the post I put on a parenting board a couple years ago--

"Four year ago our two daughters were ages twelve and seven (and our son was three). We were liberal parents--and adamantly against spanking--I mean zealously, radically , and outspoken. Our twelve year old was adjudicated a delinquent that year. She was constantly truant, smoking, experimenting with alcohol and drugs, and generally out of control. Her younger sister was showing tendancies of following in her footsteps.

We were spending a fortune in time and money on counselors. probation officers, psychologists, psychiatrists, summer camps, and etc. The situatiion was only getting worse. The strain was getting to the point where our marriage was profoundly affected and in danger. One of the counselors suggested that we take a long family vacation. We followed her advise. We booked a three week vacation in Disney World.

The first week of vacation was an expensive transfer of our situation.

One day in a tourist trap I noticed one of those novelty paddles. It had the logo:"Applied Psychology!!--grab handle and apply firmly to bare bottom as needed-- use liberally" With our experience with psychology I was amused--but intigued. I bought the paddle.

When I returned to our hotel room I told the girls about the paddle. The oldest one laughed in my face. At that moment I made the decision to actually use it. After lengthy protests and a brief struggle the paddle was used according to the instructions. Our youngest thought this was amusing and started teasing her sister. She then got her bare bottom paddled. For the rest of the vacation they each got spanked at least once a day--but there was definite improvement--and the last week we actually began to enjoy ourselves as a family.

The spankings continued --but gradually became less frequent. The results were remarkable. Our daughters are no longer juvenile delinquents. The oldest is a straight A student, cheerleader, active in a youth church group. We no longer worry about her younger sister either. Likewise she is a good student, involved in girls athletics and many school activities

The only proof I have that spankings are an important and valid part of child rearing is my own experience.. But I do know that in our case spanking truly did save our family. If I had to do it over spanking would have been a positive and important component of my child rearing practices from day one.

Despite the "conventional wisdom" that this form of discipline and punishment is wrong I am a firm believer. Most of our friends (I am a second grade teacher and my husband is a lawyer) thought we had lost our marbles when we started our strict parenting. But I don't hear many complaints any more. What I do hear is a lot of complaints about their troubled and obnoxiouis children. "

Becky

You're the parents and you did what you thought was best for your children. As far as I know, it is still legal to use spanking....therefore, no one has the right to interfere with your disciplining...whether you use spanking or not.

The most painful I think for parents to go through is when they reach the point of having to use "tough love" on their children. I hear of parents kicking teens out of the house as a last desperate measure....just to save their own sanity, marriage and other children.

[betsy]

There should be courses for parents to be, on the difference between a spanking and a beating.

A spanking is acceptable for children under 12 (I remember clearly my last one at age 11). My parents would use a "switch" -- us kids would have to go out and "cut our own willow" -- this did 2 things -- it made us REALLY THINK about what we did, and it gave our parents time to calm down before the spanking. I survived. I have no lasting scars, emotionally or physically.

I've spanked my son twice in his life (he's 12 now). I used a belt. I'd never spank with my hand, it's simply too easy to "wallop the kid into next week".

Those parents who "spank" every 5 minutes (we've all seen a parent spank a toddler's butt or slap their hands for every little infraction) take the "power" out of the spanking because the kid simply gets used to it -- then it's constant beating, not corrective spanking.

Those parents who "beg and plead" with their child to behave are simply undermining their power and I cringe when I think of how they will be treated when their non-spanked kid becomes a teen.

I'm all for the soft heart -- strong hands approach. After all, if a kid has no respect for his parents, he's not going to have any respect for authority figures later on.

I agree that over-use of spanking....like time-out...will lose its effectiveness. Let the punishment fits the crime.

[betsy]

After reading the responses, I am convinced that the method of spanking is not for everyone. Not that there's anything wrong with spanking...and again, let me stress that there's a big difference between spanking and beatings.

Of course children will learn from parents, thus a child who was spanked as a child will most likely use this method on his own children. A lot of adults who have been spanked as children do not end up hating parents nor do they end up confused and troubled adults. But then, it depends on the kind of parents one has....and the atmosphere at home.

Although I've been spanked countless of times by my mom, she had also showered me with warmth and love, and had been tremendously supportive of me. I have been spanked out of frustration and anger by my mom...and I can still picture her crying as she did it. But looking back...I know I was difficult as a child. I grew up to my teenhood with me having a good relationship with my parents...I could talk to them of anything! They knew how to adjust their methods adapting to the stages of a growing child.

I was able to thank her for the kind of upbringing she gave me just before her death, and I've been doing that to my dad...just in case we never get the chance to say goodbye.

I gues it all boils down to whatever method works well for you and your child is the most sensible thing to use. You know when it's working and you could tell when it's not....and if it happens that you end up kidding yourself...well, it's your child and his future...and it's you who'll have to put up with it.

The one thing that is crucial and steadfast rule I find in disciplining, no matter what method you use: you have to be consistent and fair.

[Drea]

After reading the responses, I am convinced that the method of spanking is not for everyone. Not that there's anything wrong with spanking...and again, let me stress that there's a big difference between spanking and beatings.

Of course children will learn from parents, thus a child who was spanked as a child will most likely use this method on his own children. A lot of adults who have been spanked as children do not end up hating parents nor do they end up confused and troubled adults. But then, it depends on the kind of parents one has....and the atmosphere at home.

Although I've been spanked countless of times by my mom, she had also showered me with warmth and love, and had been tremendously supportive of me. I have been spanked out of frustration and anger by my mom...and I can still picture her crying as she did it. But looking back...I know I was difficult as a child. I grew up to my teenhood with me having a good relationship with my parents...I could talk to them of anything! They knew how to adjust their methods adapting to the stages of a growing child.

I was able to thank her for the kind of upbringing she gave me just before her death, and I've been doing that to my dad...just in case we never get the chance to say goodbye.

I gues it all boils down to whatever method works well for you and your child is the most sensible thing to use. You know when it's working and you could tell when it's not....and if it happens that you end up kidding yourself...well, it's your child and his future...and it's you who'll have to put up with it.

The one thing that is crucial and steadfast rule I find in disciplining, no matter what method you use: you have to be consistent and fair.

I never got to say goodbye to my mom so I make every effort to talk, really talk to my dad when we get together. My parents were very loving and open, and spankings were doled out sparingly. Mom would say "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" - I didn't think so then, but I now know what she meant. It's difficult (but necessary) to dish out punishment to the little person you love with your whole soul.

I agree that consistency and fairness are the keys.

The name of the course should be "How to say no to your child and stick to it"

So many parents are inconsistent in their discipline and the child is too confused to know whether no means "no" or if it means "keep whining and you'll get what you want".

I've always stood behind my "no".

LOL

The other day I caved though! He wanted to go to his friends house after dinner and was whining his head off (he'd been there all day). I got exasperated and said "Oh, go already". Hubby said "why don't you call him first?" He called and it turns out the friends parents didn't want him over anyway. We are trying to teach him how to not wear out his welcome LOL.