Paul Martin's Legacy

[Canuck E Stan]

What will history say about Paul Martin?

That he was one of Canada's greatest Finance ministers,or a politician that was possessed with becoming Prime Minister?

How will he be remembered?

What are your thoughts on how history will remember Paul Martin Jr and his role as Prime Minister.

[Bro]

He will be remembered as the one left to clean up the mess left by his nemisis[?],Jean Chretien.Maybe if the history books are good to him,they will claim he actually did not know what was going on while he was the finance minister in the Chretien regime.

[I miss Reagan]

He'll be remembered as the dithering PM who thought Canadian soldiers once stormed the beach at "Norway".

(and Canadians call Bush a moron )

[JerrySeinfeld]

He'll be remembered as the dithering PM who thought Canadian soldiers once stormed the beach at "Norway".

(and Canadians call Bush a moron )

Martin will be remembered as the Liberal Kim Campbell.

[Riverwind]

How will he be remembered?

Depends if the seperatists win a referendum in 2008-2010. If they do then he and Chretien will be remembered as the people who created the 'winning conditions'.

[BubberMiley]

Or the guy who saved Canada from Conservative deficits in the early 90s, setting them on the course to wicked prosperity after the conservatives bankrupted the U.S.

[newbie]

I think history will treat him fairly and not tie him to any of the so-called "scandals." It will show his entire administration was exonerated by Justice Gomery, and he'll be praised for his financial and employment record.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Or the guy who saved Canada from Conservative deficits in the early 90s, setting them on the course to wicked prosperity after the conservatives bankrupted the U.S.

Wake up and take econ 101.

Paul Martin didn't eliminate deficits...low interest rates did.

[BubberMiley]

But interest rates were at about 13% when Martin introduced his first balanced budget. Wake up and read a history book.

[JerrySeinfeld]

But interest rates were at about 13% when Martin introduced his first balanced budget. Wake up and read a history book.

No they weren't. The 5 year GIC rate in 1990 was 12%

Martin didn't gain power until 1993

[JerrySeinfeld]

But interest rates were at about 13% when Martin introduced his first balanced budget. Wake up and read a history book.

Here, let me help you:

5-year benchmark rate for Canada bonds in 1998 (first year of surplus): 5%

see for yourself:

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/cgi-bin/famecgi_fdps

[Harare]

He'll be remembered as yet another Martin stiffed by fate.

[Wilber]

But interest rates were at about 13% when Martin introduced his first balanced budget. Wake up and read a history book.

No they weren't. The 5 year GIC rate in 1990 was 12%

Martin didn't gain power until 1993

You can't use the interest rate of the day. The interest on the debt would be at whatever rate was in effect when the debt was incurred for however long the term of the loan. If a ten year bond was sold at 15%, we would be paying 15% interest on it for ten years even if rates dropped to 5% after five years.

We should be pounding away at our debt while rates are low, because if they go up substantially it will suck the blood out of our economy. I know what it was like to renew a mortgage at 18%. I was lucky because I was able to handle it. I know people who couldn't.

I don't give either party particularly high marks on this one.

[JerrySeinfeld]

But interest rates were at about 13% when Martin introduced his first balanced budget. Wake up and read a history book.

No they weren't. The 5 year GIC rate in 1990 was 12%

Martin didn't gain power until 1993

You can't use the interest rate of the day. The interest on the debt would be at whatever rate was in effect when the debt was incurred for however long the term of the loan. If a ten year bond was sold at 15%, we would be paying 15% interest on it for ten years even if rates dropped to 5% after five years.

We should be pounding away at our debt while rates are low, because if they go up substantially it will suck the blood out of our economy. I know what it was like to renew a mortgage at 18%. I was lucky because I was able to handle it. I know people who couldn't.

I don't give either party particularly high marks on this one.

It's more complex than that but you're kind of right. That said, as rates dropped from the mid80's to 1998, bonds matured and were refinanced at lower rates. And long term bonds were issued less and less frequently throughout that period. So the "debt servicing charge"- ie portion of the budget that went to service debt went WAY down from the late 80's to the late 90's.

And we can certainly thank Michael Wilson and Brian Mulroney for the GST which, while unpopular at the time, was a great cash cow for bringing down the deficit - not anything of Paul Martin's doing.

[Wilber]

True. I was just trying to point out that you can't pick an interest rate that was in effect on a particular day.

[Wilber]

"Martin will be remembered as the Liberal Kim Campbell."

Well, the fat lady hasn't sung quite yet but there is certainly a similarity in that both are saddled with anothers baggage.

[JerrySeinfeld]

True. I was just trying to point out that you can't pick an interest rate that was in effect on a particular day.

Sure but it illustrates the point.

Martin and the Liberals have really no business taking credit for balancing the budget.

Strangely the budget and political fortunes have a strange way of turning on their own schedule.

Let's face it. Throughout the 90's the economy boomed as did stock markets around the world.

Then as the US economy slumped..Canada got lucky with an upswing in resource prices.

All this time, Canadians kept thinking "why would I change governments- things are good, I have money in my jeans".

With gay marriage on the horizon the last election was a slam dunk for the Libs, but slowly with scandals etc. the tide has shifted.

All of this without much influence from ANY government.

[newbie]

Too bad poor George down south can't claim that. His mess he created all by himself.

[betsy]

He'll be remembered for the desperate and dirty politics the Liberal used in this campaign.

The serious blunders and unbelievably numerous gaffes that happened in such a short time will be disected in political talk shows and print.

Tell-all books will come out revealing more corruptions that went on. I think this intimidation of the press....there's more to it than just what we've seen in the past week.

[betsy]

He'll be remembered for the desperate and dirty politics the Liberal used in this campaign.

The serious blunders and unbelievably numerous gaffes that happened in such a short time will be disected in political talk shows and print.

Tell-all books will come out revealing more corruptions that went on. I think this intimidation of the press....there's more to it than just what we've seen in the past week.

This fiasco will end up as examples in future marketing, political, image consulting and related courses.

[Hydraboss]

"Martin will be remembered as the Liberal Kim Campbell."

Dunno, I think a more accurate equation would be "Lib Martin = PC Clark". Pauly has been around way too long to be compared to Short Term Kim. I think it would be more fair to compare him to Joe Who; both men were entrenched in government for years, made the news headlines for good or bad, and were left to clean up the mess and turn out the lights. Besides, I have absolutely NO INTEREST in seeing Pauly posing nude with only a judges robe - it would never be as effective as when 'Lil Kim did it.

[Guest eureka]

If the Liberals lose to the Conservatives this time, Martin will be remembered by a sadder and possibly wiser countryas the victim of a massive Con job.

He will be remembered by a sadder and wiser country (it will no longer be a nation) as a man whi cared for his country but did not have quite the stuffing to stop the tide of meism that engulfed an ignorant electorate.

He will be remembered as the Finance Minister who gave his opponents the money to play the shell game that has fooled the gullible.

[Hydraboss]

But who will remember Pauly? I would guess that the majority of the electorate will not remember him at all. Most of the people I know don't remember when Kim was the PM, or when Joe Who was the PM, or anything other than the high points. Paul Martin is not a high point.

To the point: Paul Martin won't BE remembered.

[Argus]

Depends. One interesting way of looking at things, if you take Martin as a non-Quebec prime minister, as many have (I don't personally) he can be looked at as yet another non-Quebec PM left to pick up the tab and suffer the punishment for the excesses of the Quebecer who preceded him.

Trudeau, a Quebecer, was in power for well over a decade. He left his part to the non-Quebecer John Turner just in time for Turner to be pounded - largely due to the hatred built up by Trudeau's years of arrogance, corruption and incompetence, and suffer an ignominious defeat.

Mulroney, a Quebecer, was in power for well over a decade. He left his party to the non-Quebecer Kim Campbell just in time for Campbell to be pounded - largely due to the hatred built up by Mulroney's years of arrogance, corruption and incompetence, and to suffer an ignominious defeat.

Chretien, a Quebecer, was in power for well over a decade. He left his party to the non-Quebecer Paul Martin just in time for Martin to be pounded - largely due to the hatred built up by Chretien's years of arrogance, corruption and incompetence, and to suffer an ignominious defeat.

Another interesting factoid, for Liberals. Turner had a very brief reign after Trudeau. Due to the Liberal Party's habit of rotating leadership between English and French, he was immediately followed by another Quebecer. And Martin's tenure, which will be brief, will almost certainly be followed by another Quebecer.

I personally consider him as much a Francophone Quebecer as Anglo Ontarion, but the perception out there is that he's English.

[Hydraboss]

Good point. I don't want this to turn into an anti-Quebec thread (although it's fun), but could people smarter than I please post a list of the last, say, 7 or 8 PM's and where they were from?