NDP = Hand in the Pocket

[slapshot10]

NDP = HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS! The proof is in BC and Ontario. It's like they have never taken an economics course in their lives. Sure it would be great to be able to hand our social programs to everyone with their hands out. But this comes with a price which must be understood. Does this come from taxpayers, or businesses or both? We are already taxed to the nose with disposable income squeezed tighter then ever due to real & actual inflation. Sure Governments find nice ways to deliver padded versions of inflation to make everyone feel cosy and warm so they will keep spending and buying - mostly on credit, and to keep the housing bubble from popping. But the truth is dwindling disposable income hurts low income individuals more then anyone else. So let just increase taxes on businesses. Sounds like a great idea... but big business are not stuck here in Canada. They are very profit driven. So they pick up headquarters and move to tax havens - and that's if we are lucky. Others pick up and move all together. Yikes... now we have to deal with unemployment. Just ask all the Ford & GM employees how they feel right now. Oh, but you are in Vancouver so it doesn't matter. You just want cheaper cars and if Ford can give it too you by shutting down factories in Ontario that's ok with you. But wait a minute. Hollywood isn't making as many movies in Vancouver. They also don't want increased fees - especially now that the the Canadian dollar is getting much more expensive to the green back. Without any extra tax, Hollywood - well all American business for that matter - has to pay an extra penalty already due to the exchange rate. Looks like jobs will be lost there too, not to say profits to all businesses that reaped the rewards from Hollywood's spending practices. But here is the biggest catch of all. When business cut jobs, which jobs go first? The bottom up of course. That low income individual who you where trying to help by increasing corporate taxes is now unemployed and needs an even bigger handout. This is not fiction... it is reality.

Thanks but no thanks.

What Canada really needs is a party which will promote permanent Job growth by encouraging business. Let's get more people working, not receiving handouts.

[Hicksey]

NDP = HANDS IN YOUR POCKETS! The proof is in BC and Ontario. It's like they have never taken an economics course in their lives. Sure it would be great to be able to hand our social programs to everyone with their hands out. But this comes with a price which must be understood. Does this come from taxpayers, or businesses or both? We are already taxed to the nose with disposable income squeezed tighter then ever due to real & actual inflation. Sure Governments find nice ways to deliver padded versions of inflation to make everyone feel cosy and warm so they will keep spending and buying - mostly on credit, and to keep the housing bubble from popping. But the truth is dwindling disposable income hurts low income individuals more then anyone else. So let just increase taxes on businesses. Sounds like a great idea... but big business are not stuck here in Canada. They are very profit driven. So they pick up headquarters and move to tax havens - and that's if we are lucky. Others pick up and move all together. Yikes... now we have to deal with unemployment. Just ask all the Ford & GM employees how they feel right now. Oh, but you are in Vancouver so it doesn't matter. You just want cheaper cars and if Ford can give it too you by shutting down factories in Ontario that's ok with you. But wait a minute. Hollywood isn't making as many movies in Vancouver. They also don't want increased fees - especially now that the the Canadian dollar is getting much more expensive to the green back. Without any extra tax, Hollywood - well all American business for that matter - has to pay an extra penalty already due to the exchange rate. Looks like jobs will be lost there too, not to say profits to all businesses that reaped the rewards from Hollywood's spending practices. But here is the biggest catch of all. When business cut jobs, which jobs go first? The bottom up of course. That low income individual who you where trying to help by increasing corporate taxes is now unemployed and needs an even bigger handout. This is not fiction... it is reality.

Thanks but no thanks.

What Canada really needs is a party which will promote permanent Job growth by encouraging business. Let's get more people working, not receiving handouts.

LOL! You hit my thought right on the nose. Layton reminds me of that guy in the "Hand in my Pocket" commerical on TV.

The conservatives ought to make an ad like that with a Layton following everyone around with his hand in their pocket.

[Rovik]

Perhaps a better analogy would be Harper having his hands in a low incomer's pocket, taking the money and than putting the money into a pocket of a corporate CEO.

He's going to raise low incomers' tax rate and wants to decrease corporate taxes.

[Hicksey]

Perhaps a better analogy would be Harper having his hands in a low incomer's pocket, taking the money and than putting the money into a pocket of a corporate CEO.

He's going to raise low incomers' tax rate and wants to decrease corporate taxes.

Class warfare is a tired message from the NDP. Pass the message on to Layton so maybe we can hear something new from him besides the standbys "OooOoo Those evil rich people" and "Don't forget about me guys!"

[slapshot10]

Hmmm.... Maybe Harper is going to create job for the low income individual.

It kills me how people would rather make up stories then create real solutions.

[shoop]

Wow,

Do you actually know the income line at which someone's benefits from the GST cut will be superceded by returning the lowest bracket to 16%? Do you know what the lowest bracket will be for 2005?

Probably not, you just know the CPC is bad and that is that.

Rovik, voters like you are why the Liberals were arrogant enough to release those backfiring attack ads.

Thankfully you are in a small, and shrinking minority.

Perhaps a better analogy would be Harper having his hands in a low incomer's pocket, taking the money and than putting the money into a pocket of a corporate CEO.

He's going to raise low incomers' tax rate and wants to decrease corporate taxes.

[Hicksey]

Wow,

Do you actually know the income line at which someone's benefits from the GST cut will be superceded by returning the lowest bracket to 16%? Do you know what the lowest bracket will be for 2005?

Probably not, you just know the CPC is bad and that is that.

Rovik, voters like you are why the Liberals were arrogant enough to release those backfiring attack ads.

Thankfully you are in a small, and shrinking minority.

Perhaps a better analogy would be Harper having his hands in a low incomer's pocket, taking the money and than putting the money into a pocket of a corporate CEO.

He's going to raise low incomers' tax rate and wants to decrease corporate taxes.

Eventually the NDPers will realize that a strong, growing business sector provides jobs instead of welfare cheques for these people.

[shoop]

Puh lease. Many NDP supporters are the same people who believe No Logo to be gospel truth and attend anti-globalization rallies.

Eventually the NDPers will realize that a strong, growing business sector provides jobs instead of welfare cheques for these people.

[Hicksey]

Puh lease. Many NDP supporters are the same people who believe No Logo to be gospel truth and attend anti-globalization rallies.

Eventually the NDPers will realize that a strong, growing business sector provides jobs instead of welfare cheques for these people.

Well said. I'll stand corrected here.

[Rovik]

Wow,

Do you actually know the income line at which someone's benefits from the GST cut will be superceded by returning the lowest bracket to 16%? Do you know what the lowest bracket will be for 2005?

Probably not, you just know the CPC is bad and that is that.

Rovik, voters like you are why the Liberals were arrogant enough to release those backfiring attack ads.

Thankfully you are in a small, and shrinking minority.

Perhaps a better analogy would be Harper having his hands in a low incomer's pocket, taking the money and than putting the money into a pocket of a corporate CEO.

He's going to raise low incomers' tax rate and wants to decrease corporate taxes.

Many people, even economists believe the GST cut is worst than the income tax cut. Click the link for more info Link A GST cut would have very little impact on a low incomer.

Here's an interesting quote from the article about GST..."It's a political back flip for both. The Conservatives, whose predecessors imposed the GST over political and public anger in 1991, now want to cut it. The Liberals, who in 1993 promised to eliminate the GST, now defend it."

I didn't say the CPC was bad, I think they're wrong and I'm more concerned about the social conservatives than the fiscal conservatives. I'm more concerned about the fact that Harper will revisit the SSM decision and the influence of the religious right (the Stockwell Days and the like) on Conservative's policy making. Fiscally, the CPCs and the Liberals are pretty close and not all of their fiscal policies are bad.

What do you mean voters like me? I'm think the Liberal ads are wrong and will backfire on them. I don't intend to let them scare me from changing my vote. And I agree with you, the Liberals are arrogant. I think you have me mistakenly pegged me as a Liberal supporter but I'm not and therefore am not part of the "small, and shrinking minority." as you say I am.

[shoop]

Take the time to read things for yourself. Educate yourself. Your blanket belief in the truth of the media is sad. Don't blame the CPC for saying something, when it comes from an uncredited source from a news story. Don't quote some newspaper reporting about what *an economist says* for gospel truth. Search for the information yourself.

Why is the quote interesting? You think I couldn't have told you that some in the media would portray it as a flip. The PCs introduced the GST 15 YEARS AGO. Any reporter telling me about a party changing a policy from half a lifetime ago is inslulting my intelligence.

Many people, even economists believe the GST cut is worst than the income tax cut. Click the link for more info Link A GST cut would have very little impact on a low incomer.

Here's an interesting quote from the article about GST..."It's a political back flip for both. The Conservatives, whose predecessors imposed the GST over political and public anger in 1991, now want to cut it. The Liberals, who in 1993 promised to eliminate the GST, now defend it."

What do you mean voters like me? I'm think the Liberal ads are wrong and will backfire on them. I don't intend to let them scare me from changing my vote. And I agree with you, the Liberals are arrogant. I think you have me mistakenly pegged me as a Liberal supporter but I'm not and therefore am not part of the "small, and shrinking minority." as you say I am.

[Rovik]

Take the time to read things for yourself. Educate yourself. Your blanket belief in the truth of the media is sad. Don't blame the CPC for saying something, when it comes from an uncredited source from a news story. Don't quote some newspaper reporting about what *an economist says* for gospel truth. Search for the information yourself.

Why is the quote interesting? You think I couldn't have told you that some in the media would portray it as a flip. The PCs introduced the GST 15 YEARS AGO. Any reporter telling me about a party changing a policy from half a lifetime ago is inslulting my intelligence.

Many people, even economists believe the GST cut is worst than the income tax cut. Click the link for more info Link A GST cut would have very little impact on a low incomer.

Here's an interesting quote from the article about GST..."It's a political back flip for both. The Conservatives, whose predecessors imposed the GST over political and public anger in 1991, now want to cut it. The Liberals, who in 1993 promised to eliminate the GST, now defend it."

What do you mean voters like me? I'm think the Liberal ads are wrong and will backfire on them. I don't intend to let them scare me from changing my vote. And I agree with you, the Liberals are arrogant. I think you have me mistakenly pegged me as a Liberal supporter but I'm not and therefore am not part of the "small, and shrinking minority." as you say I am.

SO when the CPCs say that some economic group backs up their budget numbers, I shouldn't believe that as well, yet many Conservative supporters do just that. Perhaps they should heed your advice as well.

I believe the reporter noted this for its irony and you must admit it is interesting how things have turned out 15 years later.

[shoop]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. People should take the time to look at what the Conference Board of Canada economist says when he endorses the Conservative's economic plan. Here is a site for you to look at for information on him.

Conference Board of Canada homepage.

A news piece is providing information to the public. Opinion pieces should comment on the "irony" of changes in policy. There is a difference. That line shouldn't have been included in a news story.

SO when the CPCs say that some economic group backs up their budget numbers, I shouldn't believe that as well, yet many Conservative supporters do just that. Perhaps they should heed your advice as well.

I believe the reporter noted this for its irony and you must admit it is interesting how things have turned out 15 years later.

[Hicksey]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. People should take the time to look at what the Conference Board of Canada economist says when he endorses the Conservative's economic plan. Here is a site for you to look at for information on him.

Conference Board of Canada homepage.

A news piece is providing information to the public. Opinion pieces should comment on the "irony" of changes in policy. There is a difference. That line shouldn't have been included in a news story.

SO when the CPCs say that some economic group backs up their budget numbers, I shouldn't believe that as well, yet many Conservative supporters do just that. Perhaps they should heed your advice as well.

I believe the reporter noted this for its irony and you must admit it is interesting how things have turned out 15 years later.

News and editorialism are fast becoming one and the same these days.

[slapshot10]

The point here is which party is going to create the most sustainable jobs? I have made a strong point that the NDP is not interested at all at making jobs. The Liberals have had plenty of oppertunity to create real jobs... but it seems to me that they are more interested in padding their pockets from lobbiests then really looking after us Canadians. This leaves only one party.

I am about JOBS! Canada's economy needs them looking forward... but then again does politics ever look very far ahead?

[newbie]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. People should take the time to look at what the Conference Board of Canada economist says when he endorses the Conservative's economic plan. Here is a site for you to look at for information on him.

Conference Board of Canada homepage.

Pretty hard to evaluate Harper's economic plan as it isn't out yet. But both the Liberal and NDP proposed economic plans present balanced budgets. Harper's promises, when added up, are over $14 million in the red. And just where is Harper's plan anyway? All he's told anyone is "soon."

[Boru]

I was thinking along those same lines. How can Conservative supporters claim Jack Layton to have his ahnd in people's pocket, when Harper's the only one who will literally be doing just that.

Say whatever you want about the end result of the parties policies, and I'm not advocating the NDP ideology by any means, but this entire thread is total hypocrisy.

Personally, I think the lower bracket would be better served with keeping their Liberal tax cut than the creation of a few more, part-time, grocery store cashier jobs.

[Hicksey]

I was thinking along those same lines. How can Conservative supporters claim Jack Layton to have his ahnd in people's pocket, when Harper's the only one who will literally be doing just that.

Say whatever you want about the end result of the parties policies, and I'm not advocating the NDP ideology by any means, but this entire thread is total hypocrisy.

Personally, I think the lower bracket would be better served with keeping their Liberal tax cut than the creation of a few more, part-time, grocery store cashier jobs.

All fine and dandy you believe that. Now why don't you elaborate. How do Harper's policies do that?

[geoffrey]

I was thinking along those same lines. How can Conservative supporters claim Jack Layton to have his ahnd in people's pocket, when Harper's the only one who will literally be doing just that.

Say whatever you want about the end result of the parties policies, and I'm not advocating the NDP ideology by any means, but this entire thread is total hypocrisy.

Personally, I think the lower bracket would be better served with keeping their Liberal tax cut than the creation of a few more, part-time, grocery store cashier jobs.

All fine and dandy you believe that. Now why don't you elaborate. How do Harper's policies do that?

Well from an actual economics point of view, Harpers tax cuts are more geared to increasing Business/Investment spending as well as the spending of middle and upper class folks. Economic growth = more jobs.

The reduction of a consumption tax (GST) will always result in higher employment through increased consumer spending.

Harper is planning on revoking that low income tax cut, this is truth. So I think thats what Boru is saying here, Harper is playing the more employed people over the 1% tax cut (about $100/year for the lowest income earning group in the 15-25k/year range, less than $2/week).

Personally, I'd support creating many jobs for unemployed people over a $2/week tax cut. Those that make over the $35k tax line would save at the most $250/year, or $4.80/week.

Tell me, what will improve the most lives, thousands of jobs, or $4.80/week? If your going to pull out the economics, know what your talking about. Simply put, more money will be in people's hands, and less people will be on welfare, with Harper's plan.

[Guest eureka]

What simplistic nonsense this is. Harper's proposals will not create any jobs. The GST cuts will, as almost every economist who has commented on the proposal says, harm Investment ans Savings - the factors that have declined in economic performance - and thereby hurt productivity and economic growth.

The Conservative platform is not about growth or creating jobs. Ot is about holding the underclass that has been growing since 1980 firmly in its place at the bottom. It will create about as many jobs as daycare spaces - none.

Ontario bought the same crap from Harris and is still struggling to recover its lost opportunities.

[sage]

Rather then the debate over the GST cut, the lowering of marginal income tax rates for the low income Canadian etc., would it not make more sense (economically and politically) to simply raise the personal exemption for everyone?

Its really the only tax adjustment that will treat everyone equally, and you then don't open yourself to the idea that "you're cutting taxes only for the rich".

[slapshot10]

I hear most of you narrowing your focus on the 1% GST cut when it comes to Harper's plan. Personally, the bigger picture is how our next government is going to handle corporate taxes and if they plan on encouraging existing business and new business to flourish in a Canadian environment. Layton seems to think that making money is an absurd ideology, while Martin and his cronies only endorse it if they get kick backs.

[Hicksey]

What simplistic nonsense this is. Harper's proposals will not create any jobs. The GST cuts will, as almost every economist who has commented on the proposal says, harm Investment ans Savings - the factors that have declined in economic performance - and thereby hurt productivity and economic growth.

The Conservative platform is not about growth or creating jobs. Ot is about holding the underclass that has been growing since 1980 firmly in its place at the bottom. It will create about as many jobs as daycare spaces - none.

Ontario bought the same crap from Harris and is still struggling to recover its lost opportunities.

The class warfare message is tired, eureka.

Explain how thriving business does not create jobs. Explain how more money in peoples' pockets to spend hurts economic growth.

Daycare spots are overrated. They help 9-5ers and nobody else. I don't live in Toronto or some other metropolitan center. It is useless to people working afternoons or midnights. In my area, in addition to there not being care available for my shift, there is an income cap on the care of $25,000 per year so I can't access it to begin with. The little money Harper is offering won't solve all but it will stem the hemorraging.

[Guest eureka]

What simplistic nonsense this is. Harper's proposals will not create any jobs. The GST cuts will, as almost every economist who has commented on the proposal says, harm Investment ans Savings - the factors that have declined in economic performance - and thereby hurt productivity and economic growth.

The Conservative platform is not about growth or creating jobs. Ot is about holding the underclass that has been growing since 1980 firmly in its place at the bottom. It will create about as many jobs as daycare spaces - none.

Ontario bought the same crap from Harris and is still struggling to recover its lost opportunities.

The class warfare message is tired, eureka.

Explain how thriving business does not create jobs. Explain how more money in peoples' pockets to spend hurts economic growth.

Daycare spots are overrated. They help 9-5ers and nobody else. I don't live in Toronto or some other metropolitan center. It is useless to people working afternoons or midnights. In my area, in addition to there not being care available for my shift, there is an income cap on the care of $25,000 per year so I can't access it to begin with. The little money Harper is offering won't solve all but it will stem the hemorraging.

Try not to be silly with your "class warfare."

Thriving business does create jobs. That is why he discouragement of business by liliting business investment through the economically illiterate ideas of Harper will reduce jobs and investment.

Daycare spots are not overrated as every other democracy except the US has discovered. It is unfortunate for you if you cannot benefit from daycare but don't deny benefit to the world.

Explain yourself how Harper will put money into peoples' pockets. He will mo. Even those pockets that do have a few bits of change put into them will have more than they gain taken out by the need of Provinces to replace the lost services: inefficiently replaced by a multiplicity of programmes.

Only fools buy Harper. Selfish fools who cannot see beyond their noses. Take another look at the effects of Harris. It is all too obvious to those who would see.

[August1991]

If I follow through the logic here, an income tax cut is better than a GST cut. So, following the same logic, we should in fact raise the GST and cut income taxes further.

What's so magical about 7%? Why not raise the GST to, say, 10%? Then we could cut several percentage points off the income tax, or even raise the personal exemption higher and fewer people would have to pay any income tax.

If an argument works in one direction, it should also work in the other direction, no?

[bTW, what would be happening now if Harper, instead of proposing a GST cut, had proposed raising the GST instead?]