Who are the 500,000 immigrants headed to Canada? A look at the numbers (and the problem)

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

In Canada, we have many immigrants - some 400.000 per year.

But many "Canadians" leave south - some 200,000 or so leave Canada.

I bet right wingers there tell themselves we must be doing something right!

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I bet right wingers there tell themselves we must be doing something right!

By having your buddy trudeau destroy canada to the point where even refugees are saying "ummm - is there a second choice?"

 Yeah - we're constantly saying that.

You can't blame us for trudeau's mess, you voted for the guy not us.

[myata]

10% of Toronto population use food banks, over 30% do not own cars in some areas. The slide to the third world state can be quicker when we want to believe.

[I am Groot]

On 11/13/2023 at 12:32 PM, CdnFox said:

How do you get to those numbers.  They make NO sense. And 'screen for compatability' sounds like those re-tarded 'morals tests' that truly stupid people put forward a decade or so ago.  We already use a points based system so we're already screening for 'compatibility'.   And what benefit do we get increasing the length of qualification?

We don't know the exact numbers that would be proper but we certainly know the ones we have are far too high. In fact, Canada's immigration department was warning politicians back six years ago that Canada was reaching its 'absorptive capacity' in terms of immigration. And the numbers of people arriving were about half what they are now.

Our 'points-based' system does not screen for compatibility at all. It screens only for skills and education, and it's not very good at that. Since a recent study found half of 'economic' class immigrants faired worse than Canadians on average, even ten years after arrival. And they're the most economically successful immigrants!

But the points are derived simply by checking off numbers according to what documents potential immigrants send in. There's no interview. We do little to ascertain whether their documents are real, despite the fact most of our immigrants come from parts of the world where forged documents, especially educational ones are rampant. There's no effort to see if the potential immigrants hates Jews or thinks women who show their ankle should be raped. 

And doing a sort of personality test on potential immigrants sounds like a good idea to me. They're not perfect but if designed properly with the proper questions you can get an idea as to someone's beliefs and thoughts, even when they try to hide them.

As far as what we get for making them spend more time here before they get citizenship. I would say it gives them more time to become Canadians, so that when they vote it's more about what's good for Canada than what's good for the country they come from. Look at Trudeau desperately trying to figure out how to come to a policy on Israel and Gaza given how many angry 'new Canadians' are in his caucus and on the streets and who don't like Jews very much and would just as soon see Israel destroyed.

On 11/13/2023 at 12:32 PM, CdnFox said:

I think we're done with just making shit up on the fly for immigration without thinking about it.  We need people who can actually sit back and come to some numbers that make sense, not just base immigration on 'muh feels'.

I'd like to see a strong and unbiased study done too, but since our immigration system has not been done like that for fifty years, and is largely a tool for political recruiting by successive governments, I'd say slowing that down would be a good idea just to start.

[CdnFox]

34 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

We don't know the exact numbers that would be proper but we certainly know the ones we have are far too high. In fact, Canada's immigration department was warning politicians back six years ago that Canada was reaching its 'absorptive capacity' in terms of immigration. And the numbers of people arriving were about half what they are now.

Sure - i think most people agree that the current numbers aren't based on reason or logic

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Our 'points-based' system does not screen for compatibility at all. It screens only for skills and education, and it's not very good at that. Since a recent study found half of 'economic' class immigrants faired worse than Canadians on average, even ten years after arrival. And they're the most economically successful immigrants!

 

First off - english/french  IS one of the biggest compatability issues. Immigrants with those skills always fair much better.  So - perhaps the problem is your definition of 'compatibility'?  What exactly do you mean there?

As to the points system it's VERY good. Not that it can't be improved of course but it works just fine. Immigrants are ALWAYS going to be behind the curve for many years - they lack the connections and easily verified track record and rep of someone who was born here.  There are also still issues with licensing people for their trades etc. Again - room for improvement but not a problem with the points systme.

 

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But the points are derived simply by checking off numbers according to what documents potential immigrants send in. There's no interview. We do little to ascertain whether their documents are real, despite the fact most of our immigrants come from parts of the world where forged documents, especially educational ones are rampant. There's no effort to see if the potential immigrants hates Jews or thinks women who show their ankle should be raped. 

Doesn't seem like that's acutally much of a thing.  But sure - make laws to deport anyone who lies without recourse and up the screening. Why not.

 

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And doing a sort of personality test on potential immigrants sounds like a good idea to me.

You think so? Remember the liberals are the gov't in power at least half the time.  And they tend to control the civil service.  Sooo - who gets to make the questions?

Did you want to think that one through again? Before our country refuses entry to anyone who'd like to own a gun, believes in giving less than half their income to the gov't ,and refuses to acnkowledge trudeau as their personal savior?

 

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As far as what we get for making them spend more time here before they get citizenship. I would say it gives them more time to become Canadians, so that when they vote it's more about what's good for Canada than what's good for the country they come from. Look at Trudeau desperately trying to figure out how to come to a policy on Israel and Gaza given how many angry 'new Canadians' are in his caucus and on the streets and who don't like Jews very much and would just as soon see Israel destroyed.

Fair enough, i'm not sure that 10 years is the right number but i guess there's an argument there

 

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I'd like to see a strong and unbiased study done too, but since our immigration system has not been done like that for fifty years, and is largely a tool for political recruiting by successive governments, I'd say slowing that down would be a good idea just to start.

Well i think everyone would support a proper formula for determining immigration that takes into account actual needs of the country, capacity in new housing and new services (especially medical) and features an updated points system.

Less for the sake of less isn't much smarter than more for the sake of more - but i think we all know the levels we have need adjusting and it would be nice to see a permanent algorithm, for that

[I am Groot]

On 11/13/2023 at 1:29 PM, CdnFox said:

Well if you're saying that people must be compatible with our ethnicity (which is what culture is largely) then you are kind screening based on ethnicity.

Give me some examples of what specifically this screening would look like.  When we talk in generalities it could go either way, what specifically would you screen  for?

He's already made it clear that he doesn't like those whose cultural baggage would be described as deeply misogynistic by our standards. I agree with him on that. I'd screen through personality tests to look for people who had flexible, adaptable minds, who were more open to accepting Canadian values. And who intended to live their lives here and wanted, actually WANTED to become Canadian and integrate.

I would screen OUT anyone who was a fundamental anything - be it Jewish, Islamic, Hindu or Sikh. Those people tend to have very stratified thinking, especially on morals and values.

On top of that I'd do was I believe it's Australia? does, and if someone claims they have a particular skill or profession let them have a second interview with a Canadian professional  (By Zoom perhaps) so the veracity of their claim could be considered more fully.

[I am Groot]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:11 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Strange!!!!. I thought the birth rate would make up for mortality rate.

I think the major problem with the low birth rate is insecurity.

People have kids when they are in a secure relationship and have economic security. Neither is the case for young people now. You rarely walk out of high school and into a union guaranteed job at Ford or Stelco that means your economic income is secure. Instead, you do a series of temporary or gig jobs for low wages while trying to work your way into a job that pays well, has benefits and is somewhat secure. Even if you do get a nice job it's rarely secure these days as compared to the previous generations.

Meanwhile, the days when people married at 18 are long gone. Now they're mostly still looking around at 30, or living with someone, but living with isn't married. Until both parties have a high degree of confidence the other is going to stick around for many years they don't want to have kids.

[I am Groot]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:17 PM, CdnFox said:

So you are screening based on ethnic and personal belief.  And that is bigoted if not racist.  You'd have to defend why that makes them a better candidate

Candidate A hates Jews and thinks homos are disgusting and should all be killed, or at least imprisoned. He also thinks women belong to their fathers or husbands, and must dress modestly. Nor is there anything wrong with beating women who act disrespectfully or dress improperly. He also thinks western women are all whores and he should be able to do anything he wants to them.

Candidate B doesn't care about what your religion is, is okay with gays and respects women's rights.

Are you going to tell me that it's bigoted to choose Candidate A over Candidate B?

Go ahead. Make that case.

On 11/13/2023 at 5:17 PM, CdnFox said:

Further - there's no way to test that unless they're hooked up to a lie detector.

No. You forget that people with these beliefs feel they're normal. They're nor ashamed of them and see no reason to cover them up. Further, a clever personality test avoids asking direct questions. If done properly, with a series of leading questions on a topic, and then a blunt question elsewhere it can even determine with reasonable accuracy if a person was lying on that subject. 

On 11/13/2023 at 5:17 PM, CdnFox said:

we screen for english but it's easy to test that - write something in english.

We actually hire foreign companies in other countries to do the testing. How good they are is uncertain. Our major source countries have massive cheating and forgery of documents throughout their societies. It's not that hard to pay someone to take a test, or to just buy a phony degree. There's no actual interview with a Canadian government employee to verify anything.

 

On 11/13/2023 at 5:17 PM, CdnFox said:

We screen for skills but that's easy to test for. 

We don't generally do any testing. You send in your documentation that says you're an engineer or plumber or whatever, along with some kind of resume and it goes into your file and you get the points. No one interviews you to see if you actually know anything about engineering or plumbing.

As for cheating on the tests. Someone with really good English who has done a lot of studying on these can fool them. But how many of our immigrants meet those criteria? In fact, an actual personality test that required decent English skills would screen for language abilities better than a document from a school.

 

On 11/14/2023 at 2:40 AM, August1991 said:

In 1900, Canada had a population of some 6 million people.

In the year 1900 alone, some 400,000 new people (settlers) arrived and lived among us.

And imagine, in 1900, some 200,000 left Canada to live in America.

=====

Canada is a gateway to America.

It was warmer, and anyone could move there. A lot would move south today if they were allowed to.

[I am Groot]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:46 AM, August1991 said:

I once had a discussion with an Australian immigration officer.

Canada and Australia - we receive about the same.

She noted: Ours stay, yours go south. Look at net migration numbers

Australia is more careful about who they let in, and prioritizes people with really good English, especially British applicants. A very high proportion of their immigrants are from the UK compared to Canada.

Edited November 17, 2023 by I am Groot

[CdnFox]

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Candidate A hates Jews and thinks homos are disgusting and should all be killed, or at least imprisoned. He also thinks women belong to their fathers or husbands, and must dress modestly. Nor is there anything wrong with beating women who act disrespectfully or dress improperly. He also thinks western women are all whores and he should be able to do anything he wants to them.

Candidate B doesn't care about what your religion is, is okay with gays and respects women's rights.

Ya think Candidate A might decide to lie about his beliefs to get in?  

Also - how long till candidate a is "believes trump won the last election, refused to take the vaccine, once owned a bouncy-castle"?   Might it be as much as 5 minutes after the liberals get back into power?

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

No. You forget that people with these beliefs feel they're normal.

People with these beliefs will be told by others "Hey - if you want to get into canada here's what you have to say".  It's that simple.  You might keep a handful out at the very beginning and that's it.

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We actually hire foreign companies in other countries to do the testing. How good they are is uncertain.

So be certain.  That's not hard in the slightest. Submit a few fake examples and see if they pass, and hire someone else if they get it wrong.

16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We don't generally do any testing. You send in your documentation that says you're an engineer or plumber or whatever, along with some kind of resume and it goes into your file and you get the points. No one interviews you to see if you actually know anything about engineering or plumbing.

Sure - but they do have to provide official accreditation from a recognized education facility and while that COULD be faked there's no evidence that's actually happening in any significant amount.  To actually work here in that field for the most part they'll have to either relicense, or take some sort of course to bring them up to our standards which they won't pass if they don't know the stuff.

I'm just not seeing any indication anywhere that this is a problem. And if it starts to be a problem, its an easy fix.  I do agree that immigration should pull a number of applicants at random and do a 'deep dive' to verify everything they said about their credentials is true, and if we start getting a lot of hits, adjust.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Ya think Candidate A might decide to lie about his beliefs to get in?  

Ya think some farmer from rural syria is going to be able to fool a skilled interviewer?

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

People with these beliefs will be told by others "Hey - if you want to get into canada here's what you have to say".  It's that simple.  You might keep a handful out at the very beginning and that's it.

Again, a skilled interviewer and a well-written personality test don't come at these things head-on. They are quite capable of getting a good read on what people think - or they wouldn't ever be used by business. Because everyone tries to tell the company what the company wants when taking these tests! And yes, some of them research the tests to figure out how to fool them. And the best liars succeed! But most of our applicants are just not in that class.

You think Taxme could fool a personality test, much less a skilled interviewer? And English is his native language!

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sure - but they do have to provide official accreditation from a recognized education facility and while that COULD be faked there's no evidence that's actually happening in any significant amount. 

Mmmm. Where would this evidence be found? The government? Not bloody likely! That's not something they would ever want to get out! The media? You may not have noticed but there's not a lot of deep research being conducted by the media these days. And when it is it's not into something that would trigger the woke like how often immigrants commit crimes or how often they go on welfare or how often they're caught lying about their credentials. 

23 hours ago, CdnFox said:

To actually work here in that field for the most part they'll have to either relicense, or take some sort of course to bring them up to our standards which they won't pass if they don't know the stuff.

Even if they're caught up by trying and failing to get their doctor's license or unable to work as a licensed plumber or electrician or architect or whatever, who cares? They're still here. And it's not like their failure is going to get reported to immigration so they can investigate. Plus, they'll likely just work anyway on the side. And most professions don't have a licensing body, which is how so many really awful Indian software guys manage to get hired and produce some really terrible code before they get dumped.

But when you say you're not seeing it. Just remember, this is not a topic the mainstream media would be interested in and it's not a topic the government would want known. It's also not a topic the opposition would look into and start complaining about either. They're very pro-immigration too, after all.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by I am Groot