Canadian professor attended Putin's conference in Russia

[myata]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

He is no Hitler, basing it on volumes of people killed.

OK, next argument and that one we can actually verify objectively:

1939, Nazi invasion of Poland: German losses: 14,000 Polish: 66,000 total: 80,000

1940, Nazi invasion of France: German losses: 49,000 Allies: 73,000 total: 122,000

1940, Nazi occupation of Belgium and Netherlands: total under 10,000.

As of today, in closing on two years of his war, only Putin's army losses in Ukraine are approaching three hundred thousand, tens if not hundreds of thousands of civilians. Millions displaced. Europe-wide refugee crisis.

Why is Putin not Hitler today? Try again.

 

[Guest]

Just now, myata said:

Why is Putin not Hitler today? Try again.

The rapid fire manner he exterminated over 6 million Jewish people? All of them, innocent?

While Putin is a horrible person, he is no Hitler. Historically, its just not comparable.

You can't just call people Hitler because they're mean and offend you.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Historically, its just not comparable.

You are saying now that Hitler before 1941 was not Hitler? That all the same terms as you described Putin would fully apply to Hitler 1933 - 1940? "Keep the lines open"? "Encroached on his space"?

It was proven to you, with facts and numbers that they are very much comparable. That Putin, as of today is worse than Hitler 1940 by your own proclaimed measure. Want to try to squeak out again?

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, myata said:

You are saying now that Hitler before 1941

Comparing entire bodies of work. Correct. Not comparable. 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Correct. Not comparable. 

Hitler 1940 "not comparable" to Hitler. Congrats, you have arrived. Selective thinking, outside of principles and moral does that, in a flash.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Hitler 1940 "not comparable" to Hitler. Congrats, you have arrived. Selective thinking, outside of principles and moral does that, in a flash.

Ok.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Hitler 1940 "not comparable" to Hitler. Congrats, you have arrived. Selective thinking, outside of principles and moral does that, in a flash.

I don't see anywhere that Perspektiv said anything about "before 1940 or 1941".

FWIW Kristallnacht was in 1938, and that was when he crossed the Rubicon imo. 

He was definitely a bad guy before that, but basically comparable to Trudeau in terms of the hate-mongering, discrimination by false medical pretence, freezing of bank accounts etc. (comparable to Trudeau, but still worse). AFAIK Kristallnacht was his coming out party as a guy who was ready to move his bigotry to the sickening violence stage.

There was definitely a time when Hitler would have just been considered 'normal'.  I don't know if he faked normalcy that whole time or if he just became a genocidal freak later in life.

In any event, Putin and Hitler aren't comps in the way that you're suggesting. 

[myata]

In less than two years of his brutal war Putin killed more people, innocent neighbors and his own, than Hitler in the entire period of 1933 to 1940 (inclusive). You can add to it Chechen war atrocities; Georgian war atrocities; Syria war atrocities and war crimes. These are the facts.

The casualty toll of the Kristallnacht, horrible as it was, was about a hundred. Putin killed dozens of innocent civilians in a single missile strike, very recently and he launches them by a dozen, almost daily.

You are only a bunch of pathetic liars who couldn't admit the reality because it would contradict the dogma of your Lying Idol. Nothing you say means much, it's only hot air and dust. You cannot support it neither with facts nor with logical arguments. Sad, pathetic and entirely useless.

Edited October 17, 2023 by myata

[Guest]

1 hour ago, myata said:

You are only a bunch of pathetic liars who couldn't admit the reality because it would contradict the dogma of your Lying Idol.

How am I a liar? You're cherry picking time frames. Why not discuss the entire body of work? If they are the same, there would be nothing to hide. The atrocities overall speak for themselves.

Putin is brutal, as he is ruthless, as was Hitler, but to compare overall brutality as identical, is just not accurate or factual.

I am discussing based on the entirety of a body of work. One has over 10 million deaths under their reign. 6 million killed in rapid fashion. Exterminated just like that. How is this comparable? You're essentially comparing Ukraine to the Holocaust.

Both are horrible, but how are they close? Am confused.

Putin could never match the sheer brutality of Hitler. He's trying, and would love to, but you're actually insulting Hitler in feeling they are the same level.

Putin has to be contained, or you may be onto something based on the will to be like Hitler. The ambition. But to compare outright, is just false.

I don't like Putin, so me looking at all facts on the table and not insulting him, doesn't mean I respect or like him.

I don't like to be told what to think, and like to observe all sides of a story.

You're the type if you had two kids and one ran to you crying accusing the other child, you would punish the other, no questions asked.

I prefer asking what happened, and gathering as much information as possible, prior to reaction.

Were just wired different. I don't think with my emotions.

If invasions where hundreds of thousands of innocents were killed is your standard for the Hitler label, there literally are G7 leaders that should be lumped in that box.

Otherwise, we should call Putin what he is. A ruthless, and brutal dictator. 

Calling him Hitler, is lazy in my opinion.

[OftenWrong]

43 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

How am I a liar?

Have tried to explain it to the person myself, but to no avail. You're at least the third person to do so.

Finally comes back in the end with simply "liar!", plugging ears and looking for a hole in the ground to bury one's head.

It's a cryin' shame...

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by OftenWrong

[blackbird]

21 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

The rapid fire manner he exterminated over 6 million Jewish people? All of them, innocent?

While Putin is a horrible person, he is no Hitler. Historically, its just not comparable.

You can't just call people Hitler because they're mean and offend you.

A war criminal is a war criminal.  I would not say some are less worse than others.  The crimes against humanity are unspeakable and the volume of it is no consolation of any kind.

Edited October 17, 2023 by blackbird

[OftenWrong]

7 minutes ago, blackbird said:

A war criminal is a war criminal.  I would not say some are less worse than others.  The crimes against humanity are unspeakable and the volume of it is no consolation of any kind.

Clearly some crimes are worse than others. Some are true monsters in history. Others supported by powerful allies, then taken out when it suits them. For example Saddam who butchered Kurds, commited crime against humanity. He uses VX gas given to Iraq by US via Donald Rummy. US allowed it and did not interfere.

The now famous photo-

Meanwhile Stalin, whom the allies cooperated and did business with, is said to be responsible for killing 25 million in WW2.

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

A war criminal is a war criminal.  I would not say some are less worse than others.  The crimes against humanity are unspeakable and the volume of it is no consolation of any kind.

Really? 

Are Ukrainians war criminals when they allow their soldiers to ride around in ambulances?

Are they war criminals when they urge non-uniformed citizens to shoot at uniformed soldiers?

Are they war criminals when they shoot at Russians from schools, churches and hospitals?

Are the Azovs war criminals?

What makes the Russians war criminals just for being at war with Ukraine?

In case you missed it, Ukraine started this war by bringing a hostile military alliance to Russia's doorstep. 

I know that we're pretty cozy here, but how would you feel if the province next to you separated from Canada and then formed a military alliance with NoKo, Iran, Russia and China? Would you say: "Hey that's groovy, I would love to drive 5 minutes from my home to look at Chinese, Iranian, Russian and North Korean tanks." 

Ukraine wants to play "Let's work with the Americans on 'some cures for bioweapons in these cutesy labs' and put NATO in Russia's grille" and Russia isn't playing. It's not a game for them. 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Putin is brutal, as he is ruthless, as was Hitler, but to compare overall brutality as identical, is just not accurate or factual.

This isn't about Putin. The question was simple: did Hitler qualify as Hitler in when he started WWII in 1939 and by the time he occupied most of Europe in 1940? Your answer was clear too: No.

Hitler wasn't Hitler during the occupation of Poland, invasions of France, Belgium, Netherlands and the Battle of Britain, 1940. Not enough brutality? Go ahead and tell it to the world. I don't think there's much in the sense of reason and objectivity that can be added here.

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Putin is brutal, as he is ruthless, as was Hitler, but to compare overall brutality as identical, is just not accurate or factual.

I am discussing based on the entirety of a body of work.

You are being dishonest in this discussion and change points arbitrarily. This is understandable because you have no arguments, logical or factual. We are not talking about Putin anymore, Putin is worse than Hitler was in 1940, this was proven to you, a fact. Yes Holocaust is another horribly criminal dimension of what Hitler did, but does it make all the criminal things he's done before it, somehow "better" or less repugnant?

In your moral world it seems to be so. This is what you are saying. OK. I heard it. In my judgement a crime is a crime regardless of who committed it and the number of victims. In your world, it's different. That much is clear and we'll have to leave it at that. Thanks for the openness, some could think this way but would not have the audacity to admit it.

Edited October 17, 2023 by myata

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, myata said:

No.

I would like to see where I said no, vs you putting the words in my mouth.

48 minutes ago, myata said:

Not enough brutality?

You're putting words in my mouth. Histrionics don't settle debates as well as presenting a better point.

50 minutes ago, myata said:

Putin is worse than Hitler

I am comparing the men. That above statement as a result, is incorrect. Numbers easily prove that point.

Unless you want to cherry pick specific time frames, which erases the worst of what Hitler has done, which is part of his body of work.

I just don't understand the logic behind leaving the Holocaust off of the table.

Also, you cannot call Putin Hitler, but leaving other men, even US presidents off of the list, when their body of work and innocent civilians killed give Putin a run for his money.

Am calling you out for selective outrage, and you're calling me out for not wording something within a moral manner that you will accept.

 

 

[myata]

At this point further discussion is pointless. You were given the facts, they are just that, the reality. Putin today is worse than Hitler, 1940. Done. Dance, squeak around it, it won't change anything here, only in your mind.

Look, humans are famous in the Earth's ecosystem and possibly the entire sector of the galaxy for their ability of convincing themselves to believe anything. There were and are folks who worship Hitler, Putin and any, the worst kind of thug. No point in spending a moment of one's time on a discussion with someone who creates their own reality. Yes you can convince yourself that one mass murder can be better than another. That one mass murderer is a criminal in a tribunal and another, only "ruthless and calculating". It's a choice and a moral one. Yours. I cannot change it and won't even try. Only one observation though, just in case.

In that moral world of yours: you are saying that mass brutal crimes, war crimes are not equal. That one can be better than another, not so bad. OK. Then, it leaves you only one step away from being able to convince yourself that some mass murders are not even crimes. Just because you can, no reason. And then, that state is already Hitler. On the moral scale, I'm not drawing any personal or physical parallels.

Indeed, if you allow Hitler to pick and choose which mass murder is not a crime, Hitler is not a mass murderer anymore, maybe "ruthless and calculating" that's all. Bombed cities; because. Deported and tortured civilians, for this reason. Holocaust, here's the explanation. This is what Hitler did and this is exactly how it worked. Isn't that what you're trying to play, in your mind? Think well.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, myata said:

At this point further discussion is pointless

I would agree. Anyone stating there are no differences between Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Putin, isn't worth debating with.

1 hour ago, myata said:

No point in spending a moment of one's time on a discussion with someone who creates their own reality

Exactly. Kind of like cherry picking atrocities, and ignoring major ones.

I agree.

1 hour ago, myata said:

Yes you can convince yourself that one mass murder can be better than another. 

Or more murderous. What was being debated. Convincing yourself that over 10 million innocent deaths are no different than Putin's resume, is beyond laughable. Regardless of the level of passive aggression you use to convince yourself of otherwise. 

1 hour ago, myata said:

war crimes are not equal

Check my post where I state all war crimes should be punished by the same standard? See it? Okay, good. Next.

1 hour ago, myata said:

Think well.

Either you took the short school bus to school, or you're trying to troll. I am still on the fence on which one.

[myata]

20 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

where I state all war crimes should be punished by the same standard?

I did. And it doesn't seem to exist here. Either of: the search function doesn't work (checked twice); or you're imagining things; or just reinventing it quietly aka l-ing with a flair of innocence. In one of these cases I'm listening and if proven will readily admit it. And for all others, we're done here. Nothing more to say, and no slightest interest. You can invent your own private realities as you like. You're the owner of them and obviously, any and all consequences.

Edited October 17, 2023 by myata

[Guest]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:45 AM, Perspektiv said:

Punished, regardless of who committed them. If the US killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, they deserve the same fate as Russia. There is no moral high ground for this.

War crimes shouldn't ever be brushed aside.

8 hours ago, myata said:

I did. And it doesn't seem to exist here.

8 hours ago, myata said:

Either of: the search function doesn't work (checked twice); or you're imagining things; or just reinventing it quietly aka l-ing with a flair of innocence.

Maybe you should have read my posts, vs trying to find things verbatim. If you expect everything in life to be spelled out for you, you're beyond help.

The ability to read between lines unfortunately isn't something that can be taught. You either have it, or don't.

8 hours ago, myata said:

You can invent your own private realities as you like.

Am still awaiting for you to point out where I invent reality, like you inventing claims I didn't state something, and having me present to you an exact quote where I do.

8 hours ago, myata said:

And for all others, we're done here.

How convenient.

[myata]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Am still awaiting for you to point out where I invent reality,

19 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

If invasions where hundreds of thousands of innocents were killed is your standard for the Hitler label, there literally are G7 leaders that should be lumped in that box

You don't need to wait. In your world Putin, who in less than two years killed more than Hitler up to 1941 is not Hitler but leaders of G7 democracies are equivalent, then this is your private reality you chose to create for yourself (or to spread around?). I really don't care for what reason, a subtle Russia troll, an arrival from some place with an ingrained admiration for the strong hand, a recent convert to the lying cult etc. You farted something into the universe with no evidence, obviously false and absolute total nonsense. Go on, pump them out, your choice.

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

If the US killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, they deserve the same fate as Russia.

But you never said what the fate of Russia should be in your world, for its criminal and brutal, entirely unprovoked war that violated every single law, rule and charter of international relations in the civilized world? remember, Hitler 1939-1940? The only comment you made so far was "keeping the lines open". Is that what the punishment for these crimes should be, in your strange private world?

This is not real. There are liars who deliberately tell and spread lies and there are those who create pseudo-realities based on blatant lies. Pick one, but its a conscious and deliberate choice because in this age one cannot be this dumb.

[myata]

Iraq war: has nothing to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Was authorized by UN. What about Hitler and Putin?

Had no objectives to occupy Iraq or any part of it. What about Hitler and Putin?

The result is democratic (at least to some extent) independent Iraq, free elections. What about Hitler and Putin?

The civilian toll during the war phase, two months: between 7,000 and 8,000 by far not all caused by the coalition. What about Hitler and Putin?

No annexations. What about Hitler and Putin?

War crimes by the coalition were investigated and prosecuted. What about Hitler and Putin?

The take: Iraq war was nothing like, not even lightyears remote excuse for Putin's criminal aggression. "G7 leaders mass murderers" like Putin and Hitler? You are a lying liar. No: one cannot be this dumb, physically.