Is gang rape a part of Islamic culture?

[Riverwind]

I don't think you understand the gravity of the abuse Sparhawk. I'm not talking about strapping here. Here are some sites to check out.

From your sources:

Today, while it is not uncommon to hear some former students speak about their positive experiences in these institutions, their stories are overshadowed by disclosures of abuse, criminal convictions of perpetrators and the findings of various studies...

There were abusers that took advantage of the system. You can even blame the gov't for not providing sufficient supervision. However, that does not take away from the fact that the schools were intended to help natives better integrate into mainstream society.

Today, it is impossible to know what the real extent of the abuse is because every 'victim' has a huge incentive to exaggerate the harm so they can get some easy cash from the gov't and continue to justify their addictions.

[newbie]

Today, it is impossible to know what the real extent of the abuse is because every 'victim' has a huge incentive to exaggerate the harm so they can get some easy cash from the gov't and continue to justify their addictions.

Your sentence is borderline discriminatory. There will always be abuse of any "system." I'd rather err on the side of the abused. Also, in legal proceedings, there must be proof of abuse. I don't approve of the recent Government handout to all residents of these schools. But having said that, the Gov't may have done that because there are so many bonafide cases.

[Aziz]

Is gang rape a part of Islamic culture?, It seems to be in the West

rofl

are you guys serious or what?wait......

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"

okay observe carefully.

Islam=Quran + Sunnah(It does not include the stupid opinions of such stupid scholars)

Muslims=people who follow Islam and also happens to be humans who too commit crimes .

this thread seems like an Islam bashing one.

[Riverwind]

Your sentence is borderline discriminatory. There will always be abuse of any "system." I'd rather err on the side of the abused. Also, in legal proceedings, there must be proof of abuse. I don't approve of the recent Government handout to all residents of these schools. But having said that, the Gov't may have done that because there are so many bonafide cases.

I just heard a residential school 'survivor' interviewed on the radio. She said that alcoholism is so endemic on reserves at the time that she considered to the schools to be a 'safe' place for kids. She also said that some of the teachers shining examples of what Christians should be. In short, this left wing instance that residential schools were some sort of Gulag is absolutely false.

There were some cases of legimate abuse and these people deserve compensation. But throwing $1 billion dollars at everyone who attended the schools is a extreme waste of taxpayers money and nothing but a pathetic attempt by Martin to buy votes in the dying days of his government.

[Black Dog]

However, that does not take away from the fact that the schools were intended to help natives better integrate into mainstream society.

That's one way to look at it. Of course the other way is that they were created to destroy native culture. Which they were.

Argus:

I don't think you have in mind or that the government has attempted the kind of urban reserves I have in mind. Let me describe a place in Ottawa merely as an example...

Why that's...that's racist!

I'd like to hear Sparhawk's solution to Aboriginal poverty. Oh wait: you can't say Aboriginal poverty, because that implies that there's different kinds of poverty among different populations and that the requiring different apporaches to solve. Which, again, is racist.

[Riverwind]

I'd like to hear Sparhawk's solution to Aboriginal poverty. Oh wait: you can't say Aboriginal poverty, because that implies that there's different kinds of poverty among different populations and that the requiring different approaches to solve. Which, again, is racist.

Granting rights based on race is racists whatever the reason. Adapting programs to meet the needs of different groups makes a lot of sense. The difference is important: programs end when the problem is solved - race based rights extremely difficult to get rid of once they are granted.

To deal with the aboriginal poverty problem we have to start by acknowledging the real causes: the vicious cycle of alcoholism and fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) that has affected generations of natives. FAS kids will spend most of their lives in and out of jail and find it difficult to hold onto jobs. They also are extremely likely to become drug or alcohol dependent and create a new generation of FAS kids.

There is nothing we can do with people who already have FAS. We can provide programs and support that will help some live a relatively normal life but they will never be normal. What we need to do is stop the cycle and that will take some pretty draconian measures such as mandatory residential treatment for pregnant mothers and, if necessary, forced serilization for woman who have an FAS kids and refuse to seek treatment.

I am sure all of the soft hearted liberals will be appalled at such statements, however, that is the only way to do something about the aborignal poverty statistics. Simply throwing money at band chiefs to spend on themselves won't help.

[Black Dog]

Granting rights based on race is racists whatever the reason.

You clearly have a broad definition of rascism.

Adapting programs to meet the needs of different groups makes a lot of sense.

You're racist.

What we need to do is stop the cycle and that will take some pretty draconian measures such as mandatory residential treatment for pregnant mothers and, if necessary, forced serilization for woman who have an FAS kids and refuse to seek treatment.

I am sure all of the soft hearted liberals will be appalled at such statements, however, that is the only way to do something about the aborignal poverty statistics. Simply throwing money at band chiefs to spend on themselves won't help.

The choice is not between throwing money at band chiefs and Nazi-style social engineering (which I'm sure would appall anyone with an ounce of regard for civil liberties). That's a classic false dilemna. Creepy, too.

Your solution is the kind of heavy handed, top-down approach that has failed miserably throughout the history of Canada/native relations.

I think Argus is onto something. Most reservations were established in areas where were no resources or opportunities. There need to give Canada's natives a choice: join Canadian society (which means urbanization) or move towards effective self-government. The former should be supported by government programs to establish affordable housing and job training (Canada's natives are a hugely underutilized labour force); the latter option would see a corresponding decrease in the level of support from the government for Aboriginal tribes as they learn to stand on their own. The two strategies can even work together: imagine young natives moving to the city, receiving training and skills and then taking those skills back to their own communities. So there: a third option that i sneither teh status quo or something out of Dr. Mengele's dreams.

[Riverwind]

two strategies can even work together: imagine young natives moving to the city, receiving training and skills and then taking those skills back to their own communities. So there: a third option that i sneither teh status quo or something out of Dr. Mengele's dreams.

Urban native ghettos will be just as bad as the black ghettos that infest US cities and are starting to infest Canadian cities. However, if something can be done about the alcoholism then it could work. Unfortunately, you can't get an alcoholic to sober up by enabling the alcoholic. Enabling is any activity that shields the alcoholic from the consequences of his or her drinking. Proving free housing and/or welfare is classic enabling.

One way you could get this to work would be strict rules regarding drinking: only those natives that can stay clean are allowed to participate. This would do wonders for those that can but would basically write off all of the those that can't. This means you will never see a change in the statistics even if there are some improvements for individuals.

[Argus]

Is gang rape a part of Islamic culture?, It seems to be in the West

rofl

are you guys serious or what?wait......

The statistics and reports appear to be very serious.

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.

She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.

He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.

He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"[/b]

okay observe carefully.

Islam=Quran + Sunnah(It does not include the stupid opinions of such stupid scholars)

Muslims=people who follow Islam and also happens to be humans who too commit crimes .

this thread seems like an Islam bashing one.

So what you're saying is that because this particular part of Muslim religious teaching say rape is prohibited then Muslims don't commit rape, right? And yet, clearly, other parts of the Koran explicitly say the prophet and his soldiers often commited rape, and this was acceptable. Furthermore, according to Muslim law the statements of a woman are not the equal of that of a man. So if a woman says a man raped her but he denies it then there is no way he is going to be punished. Instead, she will be punished.

[Army Guy]

AZIZ.

Islam=Quran + Sunnah(It does not include the stupid opinions of such stupid scholars)

Muslims=people who follow Islam and also happens to be humans who too commit crimes .

I guess that would depend on just were you practiced your religion, if you were born in Afgan,Iraq, or many of the other radical muslim dictatorships what would your equation read.

Islam=Quran + what ever your local religous leader is preaching like hate,Jihad, what ever benifits them.

I think because Islam is a religous culture the extremists have taken advantage of this for thier benifit, to convince those who's believes are very strong or those not as educated as most to become extremists in the name of thier religion.

[arif]

Wow,

the discourse on this discussion really deteriorated at one point where the word pakkie was used, that's no good! we can do better!

Ignorance knows no colour, creed or nationality, and is not inherent to Islam, just as the Spanish Inquisition is not inherent to Christianity.

Having said this, at various points in history, evil has arisen amongst people. These abasing, violent and criminal actions and attitudes of these people who rape are appalling. Suicide attacks are appalling, as is indoctrination of hate, as is dogmatic blindness.

There is an interesting study on race in New African magazine recently. Two Koreans are likely to be more genetically different than one of the Koreans and a random northern european. In other words, there is more variation within a racial group than across racial groups. The same may be true for faiths and cultures, but there is an interaction of nurture with nature. Nurture, or, environmental influences are going to be different for groups that are relatively separate from each other. There's a study that shows that two groups with divergent views, when only communicating in the 'in-group', will form more polarized and extreme views, and that when the two groups interact with one another their views become more moderate and reasonable. You'll find that moderate muslims have far more in common to moderate Christians, than they do to members of Al-Qaeda or the rapists discussed here. Stereotyping only provides convenience to the mind, it does not lead to truth. i think most muslims are moderate.

Islam is going through a dark age is some areas. Islam was the height of world civilization when Europe was in the dark Ages. There were great philosophers and mathematicians and scientists that influenced the course of the development of our western sciences and philosophy. I do not have the answers as a muslim on exactly how to bring Islam out of that darkness it is in, nor does any individual on this forum, and of course criminals anywhere must be brought to justice.

I do know that when you see a muslim in the street, when you see a brown face, you do not have any omniscient power to know whether the person you see is more like Avicenna, or more like bin Laden, so prejudice is not going to help you.

Arif

[geoffrey]

Well said Arif.

They of took some liberties with that race doesn't exist article, I read one in either Discover or something like it, but in general you are right. However, race is still an important social concept, whether correct or not.

If black people hang out with black people then there will be a black culture. If everyone mixed then race wouldn't really exist. However this is simply not so.

[arif]

This thread starts off on the wrong foot,

"Is gang rape part of Islamic culture?"

Islam's a religion, not a culture, there's no "Islamic culture".

People of many cultures call themselves Muslims.

There's no gang rape that is a part of Islam as a religion, nor any religion. The Ku Klux Klan burned crosses, does that make their acts culturally Christian? I think it makes them Un-Christian, but puts them on the extreme of racist "culture" in the South. Did religion give rise to that culture? In the past, people were able to bastardize interpretations of the Bible, such as the "mark of Cain", to be able to justify slavery.

Maybe the question is whether the religion gives rise to cultural attitudes that are misogynous, the same could be asked of the other religions, whether it is misogyny or racism. Or is it the culture that give rise to these interpretations of scripture?

It kind of begs the question on what we should make of religion at all. When its scriptural authority, or the authority granted the spiritual heirarchy of a religion, can be the basis for all of this evil, when abused in this way. That authority carries such power, where else can a person's very eternal existence hang in the balance than in books and authority figures which promise heaven to believers and hell to disbelievers?

Yet, those who know, know that the only judge of your soul is God. They know that the sacred principles of religions are compassion, fraternity, equality, ethics and love. These cultural/religious rituals and institutions serve us only if they serve those principles, and they are meant as a comfort, a reminder, a social structure - if they fail to serve God, they are not in proper use.

how did I get to sermonizing?

anyway, Islam's a faith, not a culture - you should ask whether those acts are part of those people's culture, and then you will have to determine whether they are even representative of a culture, or a sub-culture, are they extremes, on the fringe of it or what? What do we even know about the culture of these people except for the sensational acts, what do we even know of the context?

Arif

[Argus]

This thread starts off on the wrong foot,

"Is gang rape part of Islamic culture?"

Islam's a religion, not a culture, there's no "Islamic culture".

Nonsense. Religion is a major part of culture, and moreso for Muslims than anyone else. There is no concept of "render unto Caesar" among Muslims. Islam not only provides a detailed path by which one is required to live ones life, but a similarly detailed path which government is to follow, including laws against various "criminal' behaviours. Those things and actions sanctioned or prohibited by Islam guide the culture of a nation and people.

There's no gang rape that is a part of Islam as a religion, nor any religion.

Come now. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammed was a warrior, a killer, a conqueror. Jesus tried to convert people by demonstrating the compassion of God. Muhammed swept into their cities with a sword crying "Worship as I worship or die!". The rape of non-Muslims is portrayed several times in the Koran as permissable, as they are considered property of the warrior-conquerors.

In the past, people were able to bastardize interpretations of the Bible, such as the "mark of Cain", to be able to justify slavery.

True. In the past. Now we're getting to that culture thing again. The culture of the West questions everything. It wasn't always so, but that has been the case for a long time now. As a result, Christianity has engaged in reevaluation of its interpretations of the Bible, discarding some interpretations as wrong, questioning the meaning of others. There has been no such reevaluation of the writings of Islam, for to even suggest the writings of Islam are not perfect is considered heresy and in some Muslim nations can draw imprisonment or death. So while those portions of the Bible which were previously used to excuse brutality and violence have now been reintrepreted, the portions of the Koran which excuse violence are still considered valid.

Of course, one of the major problems with Islam is that there is no central authority to interpret the Koran and other Islamic teachings. Every wandering nutcase can scream his hatred from the local mosque to the credulous, illiterates staring with rapt acceptance.

Maybe the question is whether the religion gives rise to cultural attitudes that are misogynous, the same could be asked of the other religions, whether it is misogyny or racism. Or is it the culture that give rise to these interpretations of scripture?

Possibly, but it's rather irrelevent at this point whether the chicken or the egg came first. The violent intolerance in Saudi Arabia is no different from the violent intollerance in the Sudan or Pakistan.

[arif]

This thread starts off on the wrong foot,

"Is gang rape part of Islamic culture?"

Islam's a religion, not a culture, there's no "Islamic culture".

Nonsense. Religion is a major part of culture, and moreso for Muslims than anyone else. There is no concept of "render unto Caesar" among Muslims. Islam not only provides a detailed path by which one is required to live ones life, but a similarly detailed path which government is to follow, including laws against various "criminal' behaviours. Those things and actions sanctioned or prohibited by Islam guide the culture of a nation and people.

There's no gang rape that is a part of Islam as a religion, nor any religion.

Come now. Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammed was a warrior, a killer, a conqueror. Jesus tried to convert people by demonstrating the compassion of God. Muhammed swept into their cities with a sword crying "Worship as I worship or die!". The rape of non-Muslims is portrayed several times in the Koran as permissable, as they are considered property of the warrior-conquerors.

In the past, people were able to bastardize interpretations of the Bible, such as the "mark of Cain", to be able to justify slavery.

True. In the past. Now we're getting to that culture thing again. The culture of the West questions everything. It wasn't always so, but that has been the case for a long time now. As a result, Christianity has engaged in reevaluation of its interpretations of the Bible, discarding some interpretations as wrong, questioning the meaning of others. There has been no such reevaluation of the writings of Islam, for to even suggest the writings of Islam are not perfect is considered heresy and in some Muslim nations can draw imprisonment or death. So while those portions of the Bible which were previously used to excuse brutality and violence have now been reintrepreted, the portions of the Koran which excuse violence are still considered valid.

Of course, one of the major problems with Islam is that there is no central authority to interpret the Koran and other Islamic teachings. Every wandering nutcase can scream his hatred from the local mosque to the credulous, illiterates staring with rapt acceptance.

Maybe the question is whether the religion gives rise to cultural attitudes that are misogynous, the same could be asked of the other religions, whether it is misogyny or racism. Or is it the culture that give rise to these interpretations of scripture?

Possibly, but it's rather irrelevent at this point whether the chicken or the egg came first. The violent intolerance in Saudi Arabia is no different from the violent intollerance in the Sudan or Pakistan.

you're a scholar of Islam are you?

Arif

[Argus]

you're a scholar of Islam are you?

Arif

Are you denying the truth of what I've written?

[scribblet]

While I have nothing to say about muslims or rape, my personal experience indicates that some non-white Canadians seem to have picked up odd ideas about the sexual availability of white women.

I am propositioned much more often by black and arab men than by white men, which is rather astonishing when you consider the proportion of these groups in Edmonton. I can also report that the nature of the propositions is rather different... whereas white guys often attempt to segue into things with some get-to-know-you chit-chat, the black and arab guys far more frequently get straight to the point, with dialogue that's often amusing, crass, vulgar, vile, or even a little intimidating.

Also, I suspect most people my age who visit clubs in any major city in Canada have noticed that there are very few arab girls (if any), but a lot of arab guys (usually wearing gold chains, untucked microfibre sport-shirts, and too much cologne...) and they're trying to score with white women. I would not suggest that the whole ethnic group has this mindset, but there is certainly a subset that does. The quotes in Argus's message sound a lot like behavior I've observed in person.

And, a little off topic, but I have talked with acquaintances who have travelled in the Caribbean and Indonesia, and have said that some locals there also have odd notions about the sexual availability of white women. I don't know... blame American TV?

-k

Gang rape by Muslims is also going on in Australia, which in part could have been one of the reasons behind the race riots there. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=20535

"But she had every reason to express her disgust. After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

Maybe American TV has something to do with it, but a lot is to do with the western mode of dressing as in - no burkha or headscarf, in other words, their cultural upbringing.

Socialists in Denmark actually went so far as to suggest that maybe Danish women should cover up in order not to offend Muslims. I don't have the link saved but remember it clearly as I found it offensive that it be suggested that we bow down to extremism and give in to such a backward culture.