Substandard service: a new normal in Canada's public systems?

[myata]

I'll describe two examples side by side so it's not just an isolated case, unfortunate coincidence etc. But first, some common sense (I hope). When you, I an owner think of ordering a new service you would probably, first and foremost think of the three characteristics: quality (you need a good "thing"); wait time (you need it in the right time, not the next lifetime) and the cost. Makes sense, right?

Then, what if someone you know told you they don't care about any of those? What would you think of them?

Now, examples.

Public healthcare. Into decade three (3) - that's a generation by the way, of the Romanow's commission. We have a shortage of doctors so need to bring folks with unknown qualifications (see above, "quality") from godforsaken places (who else would want to come?) but we cannot train more of them here because someone tells us - the owners, remember? that no we cannot. Makes sense, already?

Someone I know directly, fortunately not an acute case: waited five months for the turn for some imaging exam. While in progress, some necessary ingredient was not added, so instead of specific image, just a regular X-ray that was already done five months ago. The result: useless. The cost (overall, i.e. in five months): who wants to know?

Another example. Recently on the way to weekly shopping thought of stopping by at Service Ontario to renew the license. Mid weekday nothing special; pull the ticket, looking at the tableau numbers don't match; what the h? Aaah they have to roll over a hundred! Looks like a two to three hours wait. Is this what it would be like in the third world?

We are the owners in both cases; so why do we order this kind of thingies? Why do we accept unacceptable in the other, normal circumstances and situations? This is 21st centuries for H.-sake. We can have AI doing this with a better quality and lightning fast if it cannot be done any other way. And we cannot even get a job there, need to win a lottery.

Now is it just unfortunate set of circumstances; a clear sign of degradation in the public systems; or intent: rule like in the third world, with the third world knowledge and methods for the lowly pueblo that couldn't care about the meaning of democracy and responsibility?

Edited August 14, 2023 by myata

[herbie]

Let's ignore the same in private 'services'. Charging you to use machines that don't take breaks, holidays, vacations or maternity leave like banks. Closing tills, laying off staff. forcing self checkouts.
Laying off 6,000 Telus ppl in customer service at Telus to go to AI.
All the usual crap.

And convincing the public this is "good service".

But let's whine about govt services that actually rely on skilled willing people that you can't produce overnight.

[myata]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Let's ignore the same in private 'services'.

Of course there are very significant differences, even principal differences. First you're (supposedly) the owner of the provider that gives you cr*ppy service; secondly, you have no choice have to pay what it charges you; and at last one, you can't do anything about it; not even taking your custom elsewhere.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Let's ignore the same in private 'services'. Charging you to use machines that don't take breaks, holidays, vacations or maternity leave like banks. Closing tills, laying off staff. forcing self checkouts.
Laying off 6,000 Telus ppl in customer service at Telus to go to AI.
All the usual crap.

And convincing the public this is "good service".

 

Ummm - that actually is good service.

Why would we want people doing jobs machines can do? Are you mad at calculators as well? Or automobiles which have pretty much wiped out the farriers industry? ROFLMAO!

 

Anyway - the answer to the question is simple. Elect bad gov'ts, get bad services.  You want good services don't vote for trudeau or trudeau light (ndp)

[herbie]

You actually believe a Tory govt will deliver better public services do you?

Shows hoe brainwashed people can get. They'll cut your services. They'll privatize your services and try to tell you they're better, even as you get less and pay more.

[CdnFox]

43 minutes ago, herbie said:

You actually believe a Tory govt will deliver better public services do you?

 

I believe a squirrel who had ADHD and was addicted to cocaine would deliver better public services.  It's not even 'tory ' or 'grit' -  we had half way decent services under Chretien -   its that THESE liberals and JUSTIN are so amazingly beyond incompetent and so uncaring about the people of this country that they have allowed services to fall to the point where we're now an international joke.

47 minutes ago, herbie said:

They'll cut your services. They'll privatize your services and try to tell you they're better, even as you get less and pay more.

And

Quote

Shows hoe brainwashed people can get.

LOL - pot, meet kettle   LOLOL!

They will cut useless services we don't need (like the cbc) and deliver services we DO need at a much much higher level.  which is exactly the way it should be.

We haven't HAD services to cut! Passports?  a joke.  Airports? An international Joke. Csis? Ignored.  Military? Gutted. Justice? He let the criminals out to kill again and again.  Environment?  Polluted even after signing Paris. Energy? Castrated. Internatonal trade? reduced. 

They literally don't deliver ANYTHING well. 

PP will without a doubt deliver FAR FAR better services and frankly if he cut services in half he'd still be delivering twice what trudeau is.

 

Get your head out of your colon you thoughtless automoton.  Your 'masters' are a disaster the likes of which we have never seen in this country before.

[BeaverFever]

11 hours ago, myata said:

I'll describe two examples side by side so it's an isolated case, unfortunate coincidence etc. But first, some common sense (I hope). When you, I an owner think of ordering a new service you would probably, first and foremost think of the three characteristics: quality (you need a good "thing"); wait time (you need it in the right time, not the next lifetime) and the cost. Makes sense, right?

Then, what if someone you know told you they don't care about any of those? What would you think of them?

Now, examples.

Public healthcare. Into decade three (3) - that's a generation by the way, of the Romanow's commission. We have a shortage of doctors so need to bring folks with unknown qualifications (see above, "quality") from godforsaken places (who else would want to come?) but we cannot train more of them here because someone tells us - the owners, remember? that no we cannot. Makes sense, already?

Someone I know directly, fortunately not an acute case: waited five months for the turn for some imaging exam. While in progress, some necessary ingredient was not added, so instead of specific image, just a regular X-ray that was already done five months ago. The result: useless. The cost (overall, i.e. in five months): who wants to know?

Another example. Recently on the way to weekly shopping thought of stopping by at Service Ontario to renew the license. Mid weekday nothing special; pull the ticket, looking at the tableau numbers don't match; what the h? Aaah they have to roll over a hundred! Looks like a two to three hours wait. Is this what it would be like in the third world?

We are the owners in both cases; so why do we order this kind of thingies? Why do we accept unacceptable in the other, normal circumstances and situations? This is 21st centuries for H.-sake. We can have AI doing this with a better quality and lightning fast if it cannot be done any other way. And we cannot even get a job there, need to win a lottery.

Now is it just unfortunate set of circumstances; a clear sign of degradation in the public systems; or intent: rule like in the third world, with the third world knowledge and methods for the lowly pueblo that couldn't care about the meaning of democracy and responsibility?

It has been the new normal for a couple of decades now, ever since the cult of austerity seized the minds of our business and political leaders. What they once called  “temporary measures” have been in place for so long they have become accepted as just the way things are now  

It’s not just government, it’s private sector too. DB pension plans, retiree health benefits are effectively extinct in private sector workplaces. Job security is also long gone, back in the day most people could reasonably expect to work for the same employer for their entire career if they wanted to. Nowadays involuntary terminations due to arbitrary reorganizations and budget cuts are a regular workplace occurrence. I can’t tell you how many times in my career I’ve seen positions eliminated by some new incoming leader trying to show off how they can  “find efficiencies” only to see those same roles quietly get recreated a short time later when the leaders change again or when a new budget comes along and the leader has turned their attention elsewhere. So the end result is no net change except for the lives and families thrown into complete chaos by the unexpected terminations and the constant state of heightened anxiety from the remaining workers who continuously wonder if they will be next. 
 

We also see it as consumers, it’s a tired but true cliche that “they just don’t make them like they used to anymore”. From houses to tools to children’s toys and everything in between the quality of consumer products - at least those affordable to the middle class- has decreased. Everything is made from sawdust and glue and comes from China and nothing last as long as it used to. Movies suck now too, mostly just dumbed-down, half-baked unoriginal stories full of explosions and product-placement advertising and whatever cultural memes are trending on social media. You cant make a movie these days unless you’re planning to screen it worldwide in places like China and Pakistan and India and the Middle East so you not only have to be mindful of not violating any cultural taboos but you need stories that are understandable and relatable across many diverse cultural and ethnic boundaries so you get the blandest pablum and mindless action movies meant to have the broadest appeal in as many worldwide markets as possible. 
 

Regarding the statement “We have a shortage of doctors so need to bring folks with unknown qualifications”:  While there is not a problem of people working as doctors with “unknown qualifications,” we have a problem with many foreign-trained doctors driving taxis for bureaucratic reasons such as the internal workings and self-interest of entities such as physician colleges   It should be a fairly simple matter for provinces with federal support to verify credentials, set up an assessment process to confirm medical knowledge and ability, and to establish some sort of mandatory education/ refresher training regimen for all incoming foreign trained doctors   Yet in typical Canadian fashion we complain about the problem and make excuses for keeping the status quo  

 

 

 

[myata]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

its that THESE liberals and JUSTIN are so amazingly beyond incompetent and so uncaring

Some folks will never stop deceiving themselves.. and others. It's been a generation since Romanow's commission, with all stripes of governments in place. No, just change the portrait and all will be perfect as ever.

Looking for simple and quick answers where none exist. That's pretty much the idea of this country political system. Plus the foundational principle of zero accountability for the bureaucrats, they screw up you pay. Plus a few "prerogatives", like not answering meaningfully any essential questions aka "circus period". One plus two plus three, what do you think the result could be? Take a look around.

[herbie]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

we had half way decent services under Chretien -

and who came after? The guy who was in power when all the mills shit down and the doctors all left, when they centralized federal services 100 km away?

Yet you're only blaming Trudeau for not fixing the problem and implying bringing back the other guys will fix. not degrade them further. Most likely they'll do exactly that or nothing at all and blame Trudeau's overspending as to why they can't or won't. And you'll buy that song too.

[CdnFox]

37 minutes ago, herbie said:

and who came after?

Harper - and we had even better services with him.  He stabilized health care funding, something the libs refused to do, ordered gear for the military (which the libs Cancelled),  the airports and customs and passports all ran very well.  Funny that.
 

Quote

The guy who was in power when all the mills shit down and the doctors all left,

Uhhh - harper renegotiated the lumber contracts and they were Very favorable to canada.  Mills shutting down tends to be a provincial issue, not a federal one.

Likewise the doctors - although truth be told that mostly happened under trudeau.  He's been underfunding the heath system (gave less per person than harper)  so i guess you can blame him a LITTLE for the doctors but if we're being fair it's mostly provinces.

43 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yet you're only blaming Trudeau for not fixing the problem and implying bringing back the other guys will fix.

That is 100 percent true. Trudeau CAUSED the problems.  He was WARNED about things like immigration and the airports, he was TOLD that the arrivecan app was horrible and should not be implemented, he ignored the international trade issues, he has driven business away by the bucketload and claims there's  "no business case for natural gas" when europe and japan are sccreaming for it to get out from under russia, he's busy getting into legal battles with Meta and shutting down the oilsands while ignoring our customs issues and housing issues.

Honestly - i'd rather have chretien and his people back rather than be stuck with this m0ron and that's saying something. Jagmeet would probably be less of a disaster.  Thiis guy is as bad as it gets.  We have NEVER been worse off than we are under him as far as federal services goes.

[myata]

13 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

we have a problem with many foreign-trained doctors driving taxis for bureaucratic reasons such as the internal workings and self-interest of entities such as physician colleges   It should be a fairly simple matter for provinces with federal support to verify credentials, set up an assessment process to confirm medical knowledge and ability, and to establish some sort of mandatory education/ refresher training regimen for all incoming foreign trained doctors

This could have been funny in some other world. Do you remember what the problem was? Is it easier to assure full, 100% or very close, compliance in education and competence of a specialist" trained who knows where with credentials" who can check? may require a year of detective team work than train them here? Why for H.-sake we cannot train the right number of competent professionals here? What is / are the problems?

Wouldn't those be the correct questions to begin addressing the problem, and hope for any improvement? What will happen if you never address the root cause but keep throwing more and more dough at it? Take a look around. We forgot how to observe, understand, design and implement effective solutions that work in this century: now. Nah just leave it how it was in the time of Noah. Why bother, such a can of worms. And try changing the label just in case.

Edited August 14, 2023 by myata

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, myata said:

Is it easier to assure full, 100% or very close, education and competence of a specialist" trained who knows where with credentials" who can check? may require a year of detective team work than train them here?

AFAIK That’s all done in-country through the Canadian embassy as part of the immigration process before the immigration application is approved. The embassy is already familiar with the qualified, internationally accredited educational institutions and other professional bodies in their area of the responsibility (if any) and also has resources available through the local government, private firms, NGOs like Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders etc. “Unqualified foreign doctors “ is just not a problem that exists. The people who come here as do our have already been screened. The problem is that’s all done by citizenship and immigration Canada and once they actually arrive here there’s nothing that the provincial government and medical community treat them as strangers and have no process to deal with them. 
 

As to why we don’t train more Canadian doctors well that would cost a lot of money and most voters prefer tax cuts to actual investment in the public good so tuition has become more and more expensive. Plus being a social media influencer is way cooler than being a boring nerdy old doctor so the young folk aren’t super jazzed about it. 

[myata]

6 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

the Canadian embassy as part of the immigration process before the immigration application is approved.

Aha-ha. In Rwanda or some place the embassy will give you 100% authenticity. Funny.

7 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The problem is that’s all done by citizenship and immigration Canada

Of course, the best specialists in the medical competence. Doing well already. And maybe fish services could fix our border problems? Just a thought.

10 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

As to why we don’t train more Canadian doctors well that would cost a lot of money and most voters prefer tax cuts to actual investment in the public good so tuition has become more and more expensive.

Aha, outsourcing training of our medical profession to the third world? Same thing just spell it: "d-o-c-t-o-r" see the letters are the same, so whats the problem right?

So smart. What else / next?