ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 51 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: it's more about who the government is trying to recruit the military has always depended on white male heterosexual conservatives from small towns that was the backbone of the CF but now the government is actively trying to drive these boys away, or out of the military meanwhile, Woke transgenders from the cities are not taking up the slack by joining in droves The Military recruiting was for anyone that walked in the door of the recruiting offices. They even went to schools on career days. Everyone was targeted. Now, the people that joined is a different thing. I suspect that white males joined more than any other race, as was in the past and as is in the present, 17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: getting back to PMQ's another barrier to expansion I would point out is that Canada simply doesn't have any excess construction capacity there isn't nearly enough construction workers to build the highly profitable houses for civilians so even of the government wanted to spend the money to build government PMQ's there isn't actually anybody available to build them like I work in real estate, construction & logistics and I can tell you that we have all the materials to build houses but we just don't have the framers and immigration is not solving the problem because the immigrants that Canada recruits simply do not want to be construction workers, particularly outdoors in Canadian winter if you go to a construction site, you will see all the framers, plumbers, electricians, etetera those are all white males from Canada there are practically no immigrants working on construction sites at all As I said to Army Guy, there is no mandate for the military to provide, let alone build housing for military members families. https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/military-housing/locations.html The military has not and is not even contemplating building new PMQ's. The CFHA has enough issues paying the upkeep of present ones. There are PMQ's out there and if no,t the new Canadian Forces Housing Differential (CFHD) is better than the old PLD as it ensure no member pays no more then 25 of their salary for housing. That compensates for location differential. https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/benefits/canadian-forces-housing-differential/cfhd-faqs.html As for immigration and construction workers, which is off topic, who care what colour they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) 24 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: As for immigration and construction workers, which is off topic, who care what colour they are. it's not a question of race it's more about culture since Canada mostly recruits immigrants from Asia now and construction worker is just not a career which most Asians aspire to Punjabi Sikhs do like to drive trucks most truck drivers are Punjabi Sikhs now but get out of the heated can to frame houses in the Canadian winter ? they're just not into that Edited March 2 by Dougie93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: it's not a question of race it's more about culture since Canada mostly recruits immigrants from Asia now and construction worker is just not a career which most Asians aspire to Punjabi Sikhs do like to drive trucks most truck drivers are Punjabi Sikhs now but get out of the heated can to frame houses in the Canadian winter ? they're just not into that Off topic....again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 Just now, ExFlyer said: Off topic....again. says who ? the guy who hijacks the thread to go on multipage tirades talking about me ? nobody goes off topic in this thread more than you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 31 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: says who ? the guy who hijacks the thread to go on multipage tirades talking about me ? nobody goes off topic in this thread more than you Tsk Tsk Tsk I responded politely to you regarding present PMQ's status , you went on with race, immigrants, Asians, Punjabi Sikhs do like to drive trucks, construction, culture and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 1 minute ago, ExFlyer said: I responded politely to you regarding present PMQ's status cheers since I don't have any desire to quarrel with you in the end live and let live, I say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: cheers since I don't have any desire to quarrel with you in the end live and let live, I say Thank you. I tried to be civil and you proved it is not possible with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 5 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Thank you. I tried to be civil and you proved it is not possible with you. I am going to post what I post, to include music videos, regardless of anything you ever say about it but it is not actually intended to provoke you I could easily provoke you if I wanted to but that doesn't actually cross my mind when I post something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: I am going to post what I post, to include music videos, regardless of anything you ever say about it but it is not actually intended to provoke you I could easily provoke you if I wanted to but that doesn't actually cross my mind when I post something Who is chasing who? Here ya go again... LOL Go away doogie, just go away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougie93 Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Who is chasing who? who needs to chase you ? you can't resist taking the bait you will come into the thread trying to pull rank reflexively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 2 hours ago, Dougie93 said: who needs to chase you ? you can't resist taking the bait you will come into the thread trying to pull rank reflexively can 't stay away I see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 6 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Ok, so, I agree that the military needs to house its military members when deployed. I also agree it is the Military responsibility to house them if needed but you were saying the Military is mandated to house the families. That is not true. What I said was that police can be in danger every day, not that they are. Your examples are things the military does, but not every day either. DND never tore down any housing. The housing managed by CFHA. While PLD is being phased out, Canadian Forces Housing Differential (CFHD) has replaced it and it seems to be better than the old PLD. "The rates are calculated so that Canadian Forces members are not required to spend 25% or more of their monthly income on housing." https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/benefits/canadian-forces-housing-differential/cfhd-faqs.html. No civilian gets any subsidy, especially guaranteed to ensure no more than 25% of their salary is for housing. An apprentices soldier, military member, as I have shown is getting paid quite well. The average apprentice pay in Ontario is about $14 per hour. A lot less than military pay. After a 3 year apprenticeship a soldier makes over $72K per year. Anyway, good discussion and I think I will end now. Thanks. I think you need to question the fact why we have PMQ's in the first place , why were they built in the 1950's...and somewhere in all that history , you'll find out the 5 W's, and they range to having soldiers in one area easier to deploy in mass, and control..Affordability at one time soldiers housing was hugely discounted, for many reasons....security it was easier to secure the area...the reason go on and on...and while things change over time CFHA and military decided it was to expensive to have PMQ's , so they raised rent to comparable civy prices, did not keep up with repairs, which drove military members out...today...housing crises is driving them back into the same old run down PMQs .... This time the CFHA and military has washed their hands of it all....and is failing those that are couch surfing or living in tents Apples and oranges...when was the last time a civy got deployed, or jumped out of planes or handled explosives', or on and on...when did they sign onto unlimited liability... We already covered this 72 k Gross, sounds like a lot until justin wants his taxes...which the average pays 16,082 in taxes. bring him to 56,000 after taxers...and according to "your" source the average Canadian makes 72 K after taxes....So i would say the average Cpl is making a lot less than the average Canadians...and maybe some one in Ontario can show me how this wage of 56, k can afford to own a million dollar home, and i'm not even sure on what the average rent is in Ontario... It does not make sense to me, that the federal government is struggling to come up with a solution to the housing crisis, when it is with in the military's scope to simply build more modern PMQ's, and expand single quarters back to what they use to have to accommodate any surge or disaster, or crises...I'm sure in todays situation they could easily fill those new PMQ's with people that are struggling...(living in a buddies home or in a tent...) there would not be a need for PLD or what ever they are calling it today if they had more housing...plus return the benefit of discounting the rent, another added benefit for your recruiting crises... your right i think we have beat this to death...thank you for the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I think you need to question the fact why we have PMQ's in the first place , why were they built in the 1950's...and somewhere in all that history , you'll find out the 5 W's, and they range to having soldiers in one area easier to deploy in mass, and control..Affordability at one time soldiers housing was hugely discounted, for many reasons....security it was easier to secure the area...the reason go on and on...and while things change over time CFHA and military decided it was to expensive to have PMQ's , so they raised rent to comparable civy prices, did not keep up with repairs, which drove military members out...today...housing crises is driving them back into the same old run down PMQs .... This time the CFHA and military has washed their hands of it all....and is failing those that are couch surfing or living in tents Apples and oranges...when was the last time a civy got deployed, or jumped out of planes or handled explosives', or on and on...when did they sign onto unlimited liability... We already covered this 72 k Gross, sounds like a lot until justin wants his taxes...which the average pays 16,082 in taxes. bring him to 56,000 after taxers...and according to "your" source the average Canadian makes 72 K after taxes....So i would say the average Cpl is making a lot less than the average Canadians...and maybe some one in Ontario can show me how this wage of 56, k can afford to own a million dollar home, and i'm not even sure on what the average rent is in Ontario... It does not make sense to me, that the federal government is struggling to come up with a solution to the housing crisis, when it is with in the military's scope to simply build more modern PMQ's, and expand single quarters back to what they use to have to accommodate any surge or disaster, or crises...I'm sure in todays situation they could easily fill those new PMQ's with people that are struggling...(living in a buddies home or in a tent...) there would not be a need for PLD or what ever they are calling it today if they had more housing...plus return the benefit of discounting the rent, another added benefit for your recruiting crises... your right i think we have beat this to death...thank you for the conversation. OK. You win. Military has no reason or mandate to house military families. Period The military built houses, nee communities back in the 50's because of the locations of the bases. There was nothing in the areas, no services, no schools etc so, they built company towns, like logging companies and mines at the the time. Like the logging companies and mines, they stopped so did the Military. So you are saying a police officer does not face danger as much as a military man. They have a safer less stressful profession because they do not jump out of planes like all military personnel ? Not very many military jump out of planes too. Or do not get deployed? Undercover work count? My RCMP Son In Law was deployed and had several undercover jobs that were longer than 3 months at a time and he as to face unknown every day especially tenuous when in Surrey BC where you never knew what was going to happen.. Civilians do not get CFHA money to ensure they never have to pay more than 25% of their pay for housing. It is not "in the scope of Military" to build hoses as they are not responsible for military members families. I think you are being a bit defensive and perhaps even narrow focused. The Army is not all the military But OK, you win. Edited March 2 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 20 hours ago, Dougie93 said: I think DND has a responsibility to provide you with three hots and a cot in barracks but if you want to get married and have three kids ? I don't think DND will ever be to afford the amenities which would satisfy you, within the budgetary reality troops are going to want Canadian suburbia levels of amenities and that is astronomically expensive now, in the inflationary environment, incited by the BoC I would suggest that the only realistic option is to turn to the private sector troops will have to pay a significant amount of their paycheques for Suburbia but DND subsidizes it, the troops don't pay the market rate, they get a discount because in order to get what you want, there is going to have to be a profit incentive you don't get expansion with all the frills, unless there is a business case for it Canadian culture has changed from the time i got in shit 2 RCR used to have 4 huge 3 floor h huts , one for each company, today there is only one standing, and it is used to house reserves attached to the Inf school...but things are swinging the other way now...rental options are limited, homes priced out of reach, no housing on base, the options are getting slimmer as times get harder... DND already provides a lot of amenities, schools , playgrounds, canex, gyms pools hockey arenas... Shit petawawa is full of amenities most civy towns could only dream off. golf courses, massive boat dock, and facilities...some of it just needs to be updated... Troops use to have more benefits and discounts than they have now...Rent was based on rank, not what was comparable to civy street...even the canex gave out large discounts on food, appliances, etc etc... Want a business case , there is a recruiting crises going on, some of those benefits could entice more recruits, things like cheaper rent, modern PMQ's and single quarters, I mean really when was the last time DND really built a new more modern PMQ...to compete what is already on the civy market, what we get now is a 1950 with some lipstick slapped onto it and charged as much or slightly discounted rent as civy rent.... It can be down, just there is no will...shit how many billions did DND hand in last year, the year before that, etc etc...those fund could have made our bases look amazing... instead it all went to waste, and we shrugged our shoulders while liberals spent it some place else...Those military people need to be let go...everyone of them, or the rules changed on how we spend our funding internally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Canadian culture has changed from the time i got in .... DND already provides a lot of amenities, schools , playgrounds, canex, gyms pools hockey arenas... Shit petawawa is full of amenities most civy towns could only dream off. golf courses, massive boat dock, and facilities...some of it just needs to be updated... .... .... It can be down, just there is no will...shit how many billions did DND hand in last year, the year before that, etc etc...those fund could have made our bases look amazing... instead it all went to waste, and we shrugged our shoulders while liberals spent it some place else...Those military people need to be let go...everyone of them, or the rules changed on how we spend our funding internally... I would like you to to please show where "billions did DND hand in last year, the year before that, etc etc."? Fact is, DND went and goes hat in had year after year to pay for the demands that governments passed on and tasked them with. DND has never had a budget surplus. And for sure Canadian culture and times have changed in the past 40+ years, so had the Military culture and times. Edited March 2 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 22 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: The military built houses, nee communities back in the 50's because of the locations of the bases. There was nothing in the areas, no services, no schools etc so, they built company towns, like logging companies and mines at the the time. Like the logging companies and mines, they stopped so did the Military. So you are saying a police officer does not face danger as much as a military man. They have a safer less stressful profession because they do not jump out of p;lanes like all military personnel ? Or do not get deployed? Undercover work count? My RCMP Son In Law was deployed and had several undercover jobs that were longer than 3 months at a time and he as to face unknown every day especially tenuous when in Surrey BC where you never knew what was going to happen.. Civilians do not get CFHA money to ensure they never have to pay more than 25% of their pay for housing. It is not "in the scope of Military" to build hoses as they are not responsible for military members families. I think you are being a bit defensive and perhaps even narrow focused. The Army is not all the military But OK, you win. And they decided to keep them for 70 years, even considering building more modern ones, in fact i think they did build new ones as a test case can't remember the base...but if your going to lean into your explanation...then they should have been torn down decades ago...as no longer needed... Thats not what i said....what i did say is a military man faces just the same amount of dangers be it in peace time or war as a police officer, and yet there is a huge difference in pay....and if the dangers are the same what exactly are they getting the higher wages for.. I worked with RCMP officers over in Afghanistan for a short period of time, when they needed a protection team...they were training Afghanistan police, to a certain degree...they often would ask why they were deployed here, this was not policing but military work...that Afghanistan was far more dangerous than anything they did in Canada. Not defensive and if that came through my post i apologize... this issue i see as a small effort to fix a small problem....And i get it the military is made up of more than the Army but rather 2 smaller support elements that make up the entire package...Sorry that is my army ego coming to the surface again...there are 2 other elements that are much needed to perform the entire mission package... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 16 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: I would like you to to please show where "billions did DND hand in last year, the year before that, etc etc."? Fact is, DND went and goes hat in had year after year to pay for the demands that governments passed on and tasked them with. DND has never had a budget surplus. And for sure Canadian culture and times have changed in the past 40+ years, so had the Military culture and times. In addition, National Defence can’t even spend the money it has already been given. In the last fiscal year, it failed to spend $1.2 billion, with most of that resulting from delays in buying new equipment. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/analysis-will-billions-of-dollars-in-new-funding-for-the-canadian-military-be-wasted This has plagued our military for a long time, turning in funding becasue they could not spend it fast enough has been brought up but a long list of generals, include this current CDS " we don't need more funding we can't spend what we have right now" was from Hillier...Not sure how you could not be aware of this issue...I'm sure you will be able to find more examples by a simple google search... Well that is not true, DND has made a habit of turning in unused tax dollars...most of it is the fault of the military money mangers, my last year in of 2014, 2 Brigade alone turn in 1. something bil of unspent funding alone...Today with each unit assigned a budget to spend, before March 31'st, many can not spend it in time leaving it to the last couple months has created huge amounts of wasted spending I can remember one year being handed 25 K to source on repel ropes and equipment, that the RQ shop purchased...that sat for years ....so their budget does not get streamlined, or reduced...you don't use it you lose it...this also causes units to hand in surpluses to brigade , and so forth up the ladder, numbers add up pretty fast...I can just imigine what the item mangers turn in each year...with there larger budgets... https://www.pressreader.com/canada/times-colonist/20220211/281642488590495 https://globalnews.ca/news/711657/national-defence-unable-to-spend-billions-in-what-critic-says-is-stealth-deficit-cutting/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Army Guy said: In addition, National Defence can’t even spend the money it has already been given. In the last fiscal year, it failed to spend $1.2 billion, with most of that resulting from delays in buying new equipment. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/analysis-will-billions-of-dollars-in-new-funding-for-the-canadian-military-be-wasted This has plagued our military for a long time, turning in funding becasue they could not spend it fast enough has been brought up but a long list of generals, include this current CDS " we don't need more funding we can't spend what we have right now" was from Hillier...Not sure how you could not be aware of this issue...I'm sure you will be able to find more examples by a simple google search... Well that is not true, DND has made a habit of turning in unused tax dollars...most of it is the fault of the military money mangers, my last year in of 2014, 2 Brigade alone turn in 1. something bil of unspent funding alone...Today with each unit assigned a budget to spend, before March 31'st, many can not spend it in time leaving it to the last couple months has created huge amounts of wasted spending I can remember one year being handed 25 K to source on repel ropes and equipment, that the RQ shop purchased...that sat for years ....so their budget does not get streamlined, or reduced...you don't use it you lose it...this also causes units to hand in surpluses to brigade , and so forth up the ladder, numbers add up pretty fast...I can just imigine what the item mangers turn in each year...with there larger budgets... https://www.pressreader.com/canada/times-colonist/20220211/281642488590495 https://globalnews.ca/news/711657/national-defence-unable-to-spend-billions-in-what-critic-says-is-stealth-deficit-cutting/ I think you misunderstand the process. Buying equipment comes from a different budget.You cannot pay if it is not delivered. It is not a matter of giving it back, it is a matter of not paying for nothing. It is allocated money. Lately, the DND has had to re-allocate funds for purchases that have not been delivered. Like ships, Cyclone helicopters, Fixed wing SAR aircraft. I do not know how many Army and other Navy procurement are late. These procurement have been given funds and each year they have to provide evidence of expenditure ad if the money is not used, it is put back and moved to the following year. So, really they do not refund, just reallocate. If a brigade has to give back funds, then they did a bad job budgeting or, whatever tasking they budgeted for were cancelled or delayed. Same goes for all units. https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/ems-sgd/sups/c/20122013/atbcv-accct-eng.pdf Edited March 2 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, ExFlyer said: I think you misunderstand the process. Buying equipment comes from a different budget.You cannot pay if it is not delivered. It is not a matter of giving it back, it is a matter of not paying for nothing. It is allocated money. Lately, the DND has had to re-allocate funds for purchases that have not been delivered. Like ships, Cyclone helicopters, Fixed wing SAR aircraft. I do not know how many Army and other Navy procurement are late. These procurement have been given funds and each year they have to provide evidence of expenditure ad if the money is not used, it is put back and moved to the following year. So, really they do not refund, just reallocate. If a brigade has to give back funds, then they did a bad job budgeting or, whatever tasking they budgeted for were cancelled or delayed. Same goes for all units. https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/ems-sgd/sups/c/20122013/atbcv-accct-eng.pdf Perhaps i am misunderstanding , as i'm not in my element...what i do know is a surplus is a surplus funding that is handed back to the feds, hopefully it is there next budget.....There is one budget for the CF, that budget is divided in a few categories, called votes ,one of them operating expensive, equipment, etc... it really does not matter, which fund the money goes into it is still part of the overall budget....as NDHQ can take funds from one and transfer it it over to any funding they want...at their will.......Brigade group used to do this all the time, ask higher to change the funds from one to another.....in this case and cases in the past poor management has resulted in money being transferred back to the feds... This also happens at the unit, Brigade, and divisional level unspent budgets get poured into one pot, to see if there is any way it can be spent...normally it is not as they wait to long...and there is just not enough time to spend huge dollars, so it to is added to this pot and given to feds, I'm sure this happens at element levels as well where unspent funding is collected which adds to the billions in most years... As i understand it , You can't reallocate funds from one year to the next...if the money is not spent in the fiscal year it goes back to the feds...at DND level anyways, how the feds control of funding i'm not sure... Well anyone can write and pass section 32,33 34 for purchasing and have access to a budget...and that training does not include how to mange that funding, just the rules on purchasing...I got mine when we went to BC for the Olympics as CQ and i had a credit card issue to me...If a grunt can get one pretty much opens it up for everyone... The military is not known for it's funding management Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: Perhaps i am misunderstanding , as i'm not in my element...what i do know is a surplus is a surplus funding that is handed back to the feds, hopefully it is there next budget.....There is one budget for the CF, that budget is divided in a few categories, called votes ,one of them operating expensive, equipment, etc... it really does not matter, which fund the money goes into it is still part of the overall budget....as NDHQ can take funds from one and transfer it it over to any funding they want...at their will.......Brigade group used to do this all the time, ask higher to change the funds from one to another.....in this case and cases in the past poor management has resulted in money being transferred back to the feds... This also happens at the unit, Brigade, and divisional level unspent budgets get poured into one pot, to see if there is any way it can be spent...normally it is not as they wait to long...and there is just not enough time to spend huge dollars, so it to is added to this pot and given to feds, I'm sure this happens at element levels as well where unspent funding is collected which adds to the billions in most years... As i understand it , You can't reallocate funds from one year to the next...if the money is not spent in the fiscal year it goes back to the feds...at DND level anyways, how the feds control of funding i'm not sure... Well anyone can write and pass section 32,33 34 for purchasing and have access to a budget...and that training does not include how to mange that funding, just the rules on purchasing...I got mine when we went to BC for the Olympics as CQ and i had a credit card issue to me...If a grunt can get one pretty much opens it up for everyone... The military is not known for it's funding management In its simplest form is that every year the government has to account for all the money it has, has spent and has been unable to spend. It must be reported every year. It does matter which "pot" the money is allotted or allocated to. On major crown projects and purchase, the money can only be spent when the product is delivered. The money (or votes) are allocated for the project over X or XX years. It can be re-allocated or deferred or whatever you wish to call it. The newspapers like to say it is unspent and given back but it is not, the total that was allocated for that project remains. If, for some reason it is held up and not delivered, then the money must be returned or identified as not spent but, it is not really given back, it is just moved to the next year. That is why projects like the ones I mentioned before still has all it's money (and increases). They do not need to be new approved expenditures every year. When it comes down to local, brigades, division or, bases, squadrons and ships, if they asked for budget and did not spend it, then yes, they have to account for and return unspent funds. That is considered and should be looked upon as poor financial planning by them. Remember the old days when every March we all got new desks, computers, furniture etc? Those days are over and the rues were changed to (theoretically) prevent that. I also had a credit card, to pay for requirements when on an ops or mission. For fuel, hotels and anything else needed while on task. In the old days, we used to carry requisition documents and lots of paperwork to spend while on ops, thank goodness that went away when credit card became available LOL The military is subservient, it really does not do anything it is not told to do. Edited March 3 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 18 hours ago, ExFlyer said: OK. You win. Military has no reason or mandate to house military families. Period The military built houses, nee communities back in the 50's because of the locations of the bases. There was nothing in the areas, no services, no schools etc so, they built company towns, like logging companies and mines at the the time. Like the logging companies and mines, they stopped so did the Military. So you are saying a police officer does not face danger as much as a military man. They have a safer less stressful profession because they do not jump out of planes like all military personnel ? Not very many military jump out of planes too. Or do not get deployed? Undercover work count? My RCMP Son In Law was deployed and had several undercover jobs that were longer than 3 months at a time and he as to face unknown every day especially tenuous when in Surrey BC where you never knew what was going to happen.. Civilians do not get CFHA money to ensure they never have to pay more than 25% of their pay for housing. It is not "in the scope of Military" to build hoses as they are not responsible for military members families. I think you are being a bit defensive and perhaps even narrow focused. The Army is not all the military But OK, you win. Police officers spend 12 hrs a day dealing with society's worst and probably see a lot more carnage than the average service person who is not actually in combat situations. They also make more money. I looked up the pay rates for our police force. 5th class constable (starting), just over $72K. First class constable (after 3 years), just under $122K. First responders also have a much higher rate of PTSD and suicide than the general population which the "cops don't cry" macho environment hasn't helped. No doubt that's a problem in the military as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 7 minutes ago, Aristides said: Police officers spend 12 hrs a day dealing with society's worst and probably see a lot more carnage than the average service person who is not actually in combat situations. They also make more money. I looked up the pay rates for our police force. 5th class constable (starting), just over $72K. First class constable (after 3 years), just under $122K. First responders also have a much higher rate of PTSD and suicide than the general population which the "cops don't cry" macho environment hasn't helped. No doubt that's a problem in the military as well. I agree. Are you insinuating police are over paid? My point actually was not pay between the two professions but that fact police face dangers too, everyday, not just on the occasional deployment like and Army member does. My pay comments were to inform that a military person gets pretty good pay compared to civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: I agree. Are you insinuating police are over paid? My point actually was not pay between the two professions but that fact police face dangers too, everyday, not just on the occasional deployment like and Army member does. My pay comments were to inform that a military person gets pretty good pay compared to civilians. Not insinuating anything, I have a police officer in my family as well. As far as housing goes, military personnel can end up making multiple moves with no say in the matter so they are unable to use their residence as an investment, unlike the average Joe. For instance, someone in the Navy can be moved from Halifax where housing is relatively inexpensive to Esquimalt next to Victoria where housing is just as expensive as Vancouver. Edited March 3 by Aristides 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Aristides said: Not insinuating anything, I have a police officer in my family as well. As far as housing goes, military personnel can end up making multiple moves with no say in the matter so they are unable to use their residence as an investment, unlike the average Joe. For instance, someone in the Navy can be moved from Halifax where housing is relatively inexpensive to Esquimalt next to Victoria where housing is just as expensive as Vancouver. Military postings used to be 4 years or so. They are now often 10+ years. Navy folks quite often even longer so, yes, they can be and are used as investments just like the average Joe. They can have a say on postings but, it could and can have career implications. Also, as I have mentioned, if they do not own or want to buy, they get subsidy to ensure they will not pay any more than 25% of their wage for rent...unlike the average Joe. I spent 35 years in the Military and it is very different today than when i was in. I do not mean to crap on the military in any way, it was my life for a long time, I just wanted to dispel the rumour that military folks are in the poor house and bad off. Their benefits are still quite good. Edited March 3 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, Aristides said: Police officers spend 12 hrs a day dealing with society's worst and probably see a lot more carnage than the average service person who is not actually in combat situations. They also make more money. I looked up the pay rates for our police force. 5th class constable (starting), just over $72K. First class constable (after 3 years), just under $122K. First responders also have a much higher rate of PTSD and suicide than the general population which the "cops don't cry" macho environment hasn't helped. No doubt that's a problem in the military as well. In the military, most combat trades, pilots,air crew , SAR techs, some navy trades... the very nature of the job is dangerous, members die all the time during training which points to how dangerous the job really is in reality...and while some trades face very little danger, Overall i think the dangers faced police officers is no more than other military or first responders. and deserve equal compensation... Trauma to the brain is a tricky thing, it builds up over time, until one day the brain says enough....everyone's tolerance is different..most military and first responders hide it very well, i had severe PTSD, but could function day to day sort off , even under stressful events well enough to get the job done...and my bosses were shocked when i put myself into treatment. Some of my comrades in arms were not that lucky and could not live with the torment of PTSD and took their own lives (more than 400 military members took their own lifes in those 14 years) and occasionally i hear of more that had reached that point ...... But each Job is going have much different levels of carnage attached with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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