The shocking collapse in Canadian productivity: in spite of the Liberals’ best efforts, or because of them?

[herbie]

okay, okay

/sarcasm

What kind of response did you expect to someone claiming it's a lie that productivity is not measured for the benefit of the working class?

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Again, why is there nobody here for you? 

 

ROFLMAO - they are kiddo - and people have specifically told you they're not here for you   Funny how that works,

[CdnFox]

Just now, Contrarian said:

I ate chicken:

 

That's practically cannibalism for you

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Okay, fair point about that being during the pandemic, but can you not see the inherent problem of a protest against the pandemic measures meant to prevent large groups of people from spreading illness?  You really see these as direct parallels, especially in Canada?  

I thought the protests were, for the most part, moronic. Yet the same governments condemning them were actively courting voters who took part in the BLM demos, and joining them! Which tended to make their denunciations of the anti-vax set more than a tad hypocritical and rob them of the respect they would need to persuade people to comply.

And, as far as I know, after the fact anyway, there never was a case of transmission linked to outdoor activity.

15 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, I mean that vehicles and power generation are moving away from fossil fuels whether you like it or not, and when the tech and production methods are scaled/matured, legacy industries relying on them will be caught with their pants down and left behind.  

Doesn't change what I said. The higher the cost of energy the weaker an economy and the poorer the country. If you have to spend a ton on heating and getting around not nearly as much is left for things like healthcare and infrastructure. The way the West has been spending so much on this while the rest have spent so little has resulted and is resulting in a continuing transfer of wealth from the West to the rest as manufacturing and exports dry up. Even farming costs more here than in places like Brazil due to higher fuel prices and taxes. And soon on higher fertilizer costs as the companies in the West have to meet new restrictions on carbon. Meanwhile the rest keep chugging merrily along building coal plants. 

15 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Yes, because when their cities sink under the seas, or their rivers dry up, coal won't seem like such a great idea anymore, and we'll be the ones with the means to adapt to a changing climate, not them.  

Not if we're poor, we won't. Their coal plants and diesel motors will work just as well in a hot atmosphere as our nuclear plants and electric vehicles. You can do a lot with money to guard against floods or drought, and move people away from coasts.

And frankly, there's a lot of doubt how well this experiment in the electrification of our vehicles is going to go. Without serious changes to how batteries are put together, the world is likely to run out of a number of rare earth metals as electric car use spreads.

[Moonbox]

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Which tended to make their denunciations of the anti-vax set more than a tad hypocritical and rob them of the respect they would need to persuade people to comply.

No, because as you say, the trucker protest was moronic and it lasted over a month, vs the 1-2 day BLM protests in Canada.  If the trucker protestors had all been arrested on day 3 or 4, you'd have a point, but obviously that wasn't the case.  

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Doesn't change what I said. The higher the cost of energy the weaker an economy and the poorer the country. If you have to spend a ton on heating and getting around not nearly as much is left for things like healthcare and infrastructure. The way the West has been spending so much on this while the rest have spent so little has resulted and is resulting in a continuing transfer of wealth from the West to the rest as manufacturing and exports dry up.

The fossil fuel industry gets billions of dollars every year in subsidies, grants and tax breaks from the federal government...so...yeah.  

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Not if we're poor, we won't. Their coal plants and diesel motors will work just as well in a hot atmosphere as our nuclear plants and electric vehicles. You can do a lot with money to guard against floods or drought, and move people away from coasts.

Their coal and diesel motors won't matter when they're dealing with drought, flooding and crop failures, and good trade policy moving forward could/should include tariffs against heavy polluter imports.  As you say, there's no point in carbon taxing our industry if we just export our pollution abroad.  

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

And frankly, there's a lot of doubt how well this experiment in the electrification of our vehicles is going to go. Without serious changes to how batteries are put together, the world is likely to run out of a number of rare earth metals as electric car use spreads.

Rare earth metals aren't rare, they're just expensive to dig up and refine.  Known reserves are expected to last over 100 years, and we are already developing REE alternatives in case we somehow don't discover new reserves in that spam.  Simply put, we'll be fine.  

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, because as you say, the trucker protest was moronic and it lasted over a month, vs the 1-2 day BLM protests in Canada.  If the trucker protestors had all been arrested on day 3 or 4, you'd have a point, but obviously that wasn't the case.  

I wasn't specifically talking about the truckers. There were a number of protests against lockdowns and vaccines, including at hospitals.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The fossil fuel industry gets billions of dollars every year in subsidies, grants and tax breaks from the federal government...so...yeah.  

Not buying it. Every business gets to write off a wide variety of expenses. Why should the fossil fuel industry be any different? How much do you think the EV makers or renewable energy producers get in subsidies? Never mind the banks and insurance companies.

And as I said, it'll all make us poorer. 

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Their coal and diesel motors won't matter when they're dealing with drought, flooding and crop failures

But money will, so the richer they are, the better. And we'll be dealing with drought, flooding and crop failures too, with less money than we'd otherwise have.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

, and good trade policy moving forward could/should include tariffs against heavy polluter imports.

Like the US? There's no carbon tax down there. Or in Mexico, our other free trade partner.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Rare earth metals aren't rare, they're just expensive to dig up and refine.  Known reserves are expected to last over 100 years, and we are already developing REE alternatives in case we somehow don't discover new reserves in that spam.  Simply put, we'll be fine.  

Does that timeline of 100 years include a massive expansion of demand if the batteries and other renewable demands multiply fiftyfold?

[Moonbox]

9 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I wasn't specifically talking about the truckers. There were a number of protests against lockdowns and vaccines, including at hospitals.

So?  I'm not seeing what your point is here. 

37 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Not buying it. Every business gets to write off a wide variety of expenses. Why should the fossil fuel industry be any different? How much do you think the EV makers or renewable energy producers get in subsidies? Never mind the banks and insurance companies.

And as I said, it'll all make us poorer. 

It's the victimhood and the whining that distinguishes the fossil fuel industry and the farmers etc (especially the latter).  I don't love the idea of big subsidies for battery factories either, but crying about that when billions of direct subsidies have been going to the farmers and fossil fuel industry who are complaining about it is always rich. 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

But money will, so the richer they are, the better. And we'll be dealing with drought, flooding and crop failures too, with less money than we'd otherwise have.

We'll deal with less impact, and still have more resources to adapt than they will.  There's a reason that the Chinese are leading the way on renewable investments - they can see where this all leads, but they don't have to worry about all the whining.  

[herbie]

Kind of odd in a discussion about productivity that people who's feewings were more important than their job get mentioned....

Edited July 10, 2023 by herbie

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's the victimhood and the whining that distinguishes the fossil fuel industry and the farmers etc (especially the latter).  I don't love the idea of big subsidies for battery factories either, but crying about that when billions of direct subsidies have been going to the farmers and fossil fuel industry who are complaining about it is always rich. 

Their victimhood sentiment might not be so strong if the government didn't spend so much time and effort trying to make their lives more difficult and their industries less profitable. I don't think they do the same for anyone else. Like, for example, cement factories in Quebec. 

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

We'll deal with less impact, and still have more resources to adapt than they will.  There's a reason that the Chinese are leading the way on renewable investments - they can see where this all leads, but they don't have to worry about all the whining.  

Yes, they can see where all this leads, which is why they're a world leader in building coal power plants. Why there are no carbon taxes, why fuel and energy costs are kept as low as possible to encourage industry and profits. China increased its CO2 emissions last year by five times Canada's oil sands emissions. And the same the year before. And will do the same this year.

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

it's the victimhood and the whining that distinguishes the fossil fuel industry and the farmers etc (especially the latter).  I don't love the idea of big subsidies for battery factories either, but crying about that when billions of direct subsidies have been going to the farmers and fossil fuel industry who are complaining about it is always rich. 

Not even in the same ballpark. Billions were spent over many years on industries that produced HUNDREDS of billions of dollars in gov't revenues. 

This is billions for one factory. That will produce almost nothing for go't revenues.  That would be the equivalent of spending billions on a single oil well.

But false equivalency is kind of where the libs live isn't it