Hockey, Olympics, Quebec, Bertuzzi

[August1991]

I don't follow hockey so some of my following comments may make no sense.

First, wasn't Bertuzzi some hockey player who should have gone to jail because he almost killed another player? Why is this guy playing on Canada's national hockey team? He doesn't represent me.

Second, it seems like Quebec is contributing many players to Canada's team. (Is that true?) So, following Duceppe's idea, if Quebec had its own hockey team in the Olympics, it would be a good one. Presumably, this would make Canada's team weaker - but then again, Quebec's team wouldn't be that good either. However, if the Quebec team organized its own affairs its own way, maybe the players would perform better.

In fact, sports metaphors are fundamentally false. There is no Team Canada or Team Quebec going out into the world to play the game of life. And trade is not like a hockey match at all. The proper metaphor for trade is a good marriage.

This explains why people in small countries such as Iceland enjoy a high standard of living yet Iceland's hockey team has never won any gold medals. (Or has it? Is there an Icelandic hockey team?)

[shoop]

Second, it seems like Quebec is contributing many players to Canada's team.  (Is that true?) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quebec is contributing five players out of 26 (including the taxi squad) on the team. That is 19.2% of the team. That is a little less than their 23.4% share of the population (using 2004 census figures.)

So interperet that as you will.

First, wasn't Bertuzzi some hockey player who should have gone to jail because he almost killed another player? Why is this guy playing on Canada's national hockey team? He doesn't represent me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is doubtful that he should have gone to jail. Steve Moore, the other player, suffered serious injury but was not almost killed.

No apologies for what Bertuzzi did, it was horrendous. But he paid a very large price financially, and personally with his trial and the time away from the sport.

Svend Robinson stole a ring worth $21,500 and got basically the same sentence.

The bigger question is whether or not people deserve a second chance in life. The incident was almost two years ago now. He has paid for his mistake.

He still isn`t assured of a spot on the team. The Canadian Olympic Committee has the final decision.

[Riverwind]

Second, it seems like Quebec is contributing many players to Canada's team.  (Is that true?)  So, following Duceppe's idea, if Quebec had its own hockey team in the Olympics, it would be a good one.

August, You are making the assumption that Quebec players would want to play for a Quebec team. If you assume that the political leanings of Quebec hockey players are split exactly the way Quebec society is split then you would need to assume that about 50% of federalists.

[FTA Lawyer]

Second, it seems like Quebec is contributing many players to Canada's team.  (Is that true?)  So, following Duceppe's idea, if Quebec had its own hockey team in the Olympics, it would be a good one.

August, You are making the assumption that Quebec players would want to play for a Quebec team. If you assume that the political leanings of Quebec hockey players are split exactly the way Quebec society is split then you would need to assume that about 50% of federalists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, in fact, when the Bloc first tossed out this trial balloon, a number of Quebecois NHLers were interviewed about their thoughts on it and there wasn't a single one that I'm aware of that didn't immediately say they'd wear the Maple Leaf, not the Fleur de Lis.

FTA

[willy]

First, wasn't Bertuzzi some hockey player who should have gone to jail because he almost killed another player? Why is this guy playing on Canada's national hockey team? He doesn't represent me.

He was accorded his punishment and did his time.

Bertuzzi is an amazing hockey player! That is why he is on the Olympic team.

Does your view suggest that we investigate all the athletes now not only for drug use but also character. What rules would we use to judge if they can represent us?

Silly.

He is good at hockey and does not have the behaviour problems of many of the professional clowns out there.

He was part of an incident that was judged on the injury result and not the level of violence. I have seen sucker punches in hockey my whole life. The difference was only the strength and pile up that ensued.

Forgiveness is no longer a Canadian value.

[!!!]

No apologies for what Bertuzzi did, it was horrendous. But he paid a very large price financially, and personally with his trial and the time away from the sport.

Oh boo hoo. Let's all take a minute to shed a tear for poor Todd Bertuzzi, who's brutal, premeditated assault ended the carer of another hockey player, who's "hefty" financial punishment was about 7 per cent of his annual salary and who's time away from the game amounted to 20 games. Oh wait: let's not.

Svend Robinson stole a ring worth $21,500 and got basically the same sentence.

Robinson stole a ring and gave it back. No one was hurt. Bertuzzi broke a man's neck in an act of violence that was shocking even in a game known for acts of violence. There's no comparison.

The bigger question is whether or not people deserve a second chance in life. The incident was almost two years ago now. He has paid for his mistake.

Bertuzzi has a long history of on-ice thuggery, undisciplined play and a well-known mean streak. The question isn't about second chances as it is about what kind of example the league is setting by allowing a role-model and public figure like Bertuzzi to continue to ply his trade (especially at a level where he is representing his country) despite displaying flagrant disregard for the princioples of sportsmanship and common decency. It's astonishing that conservative minded people here who would otherwise support harsh sentences for criminals would rally to the side of a millionaire thug simply because of his proficiency at a game. It's a disgrace hat this guy is going to be wearing the colours alongside class acts like Joe Sackic on a team run by a man who during was a pargaon of sportsmanship throughout his exceptional career.

[willy]

Bertuzzi has a long history of on-ice thuggery, undisciplined play and a well-known mean streak.

To many people that would make him an ideal hockey player. This is not figure skating.

He is going to play hockey.

Svend wants to write laws. Do you not see a difference?

[Black Dog]

To many people that would make him an ideal hockey player. This is not figure skating.

There's physicality and there's brutality. Bertuzzi's assault on Moore was not part of the normal rough and tumble of the sport. It has no place in the game and neither does he.

Svend wants to write laws. Do you not see a difference?

Between a guy who breaks someone's neck and a guy who pockets a expensive buable? Yeah, I see a big difference, which is why I said the two situations aren't comparable.

[Yaro]

There's physicality and there's brutality. Bertuzzi's assault on Moore was not part of the normal rough and tumble of the sport. It has no place in the game and neither does he.

Bertuzzi's assault doesn't even rank in the top 25 incidents in hockey history. Just curious how you feel about Bobby Clarke's incident with Kharlamov?

The whole argument is asinine, the incident 99/100 would have resulted in a headache and because of unlucky circumstances and a large group of people who know little to nothing about hockey this has been blown way out of proportion.

Bertuzzi has a long history of on-ice thuggery, undisciplined play and a well-known mean streak.

No he doesn't, hes had a couple of incidents hardly a long history and in every incident he as standing up for a teammate who had taken a cheap shot.

The question isn't about second chances as it is about what kind of example the league is setting by allowing a role-model and public figure like Bertuzzi to continue to ply his trade (especially at a level where he is representing his country) despite displaying flagrant disregard for the princioples of sportsmanship and common decency.

Never actually competed at a very high level of anything have you? Because there is no such thing as sportsmanship which you get to the level that Bertuzzi has reached, there is only the appearance of sportsmanship.

It's astonishing that conservative minded people here who would otherwise support harsh sentences for criminals would rally to the side of a millionaire thug simply because of his proficiency at a game.

He got exactly what he would have gotten if it had happened on the street, a slap on the wrist.

It's a disgrace hat this guy is going to be wearing the colours alongside class acts like Joe Sackic on a team run by a man who during was a pargaon of sportsmanship throughout his exceptional career.

Its funny you should bring up Joe, since hes been a huge supporter of Bertuzzi's throughout the entire ordeal.

Between a guy who breaks someone's neck and a guy who pockets a expensive buable? Yeah, I see a big difference, which is why I said the two situations aren't comparable.

But of course calling Moores neck broken is as honest as saying someone who gets a chipped touch has a broken jaw.

[willy]

At least Bert took responsibility, apologized and took the penalty.

Svend blamed stress and a hard life. Poor spend had to do it, he had a metal illness and now he must be all cured. Come on, should he really be back in politics one year latter. I really don't like Hedi but Svend is not going to restore trust back in politics.

To come back to the comparison; I never expected to trust a hockey player. If his association says he can play, then he can play. Sports heroes are just images, and should not be placed up for morale comparison.

Politicians on the other hand are running for public service and should be held to a higher standard.

BD, you don't strike me as a sports fan. Are you really or do you just like high horses?

[seabee]

What about Shane Doan, who called referees "fucking Frenchmen"?

link:

[Bakunin]

What about Shane Doan, who called referees "fucking Frenchmen"?

link:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that not only he wasnt good enough to be on the team but its a lack of judgment from team canada.

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

[shoop]

bakunin, vraiment.

Les mots de denis coderre a ete tres stupide.

Aujourd`hui Colin Campbell, le president executif de la LHN a dit "Mr Coderre should focus on getting re-elected and not on how we run our business."

There is no proof to the accusations about what Shane Doan said.

Who deserved to be on the team ahead of Doan? Toute les troiseme membres dans le "taxi squad" est anglophones...

I think that not only he wasnt good enough to be on the team but its a lack of judgment from team canada.

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[I Miss Trudeau]

Does your view suggest that we investigate all the athletes now not only for drug use but also character. What rules would we use to judge if they can represent us?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple enough. Any athlete with a proven history of serious unsportsmanlike behaviour ought to be excluded from the oppurtunity to represent this nation in the olympics.

The premeditated mauling of another player is a pretty clear example of this.

He is good at hockey and does not have the behaviour problems of many of the professional clowns out there.

A serious physical attack that goes far beyond the scope of the game isn't a "behaviour problem"?!

He was part of an incident that was judged on the injury result and not the level of violence. I have seen sucker punches in hockey my whole life. The difference was only the strength and pile up that ensued.

I see a lot of face washing with gloves and a little sucker punch here and there. Seeing a player chase down another, wind up and deck him from behind with his full strength and then drive that players face into the ice goes far beyond the usual sucker punches that occur in every game.

If Bertuzzi honestly didn't think that such an action posed a very high risk of serious injury, poor judgment of that magnitude is more than enough reason to exclude him.

[I Miss Trudeau]

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.... or to be a talking baubble head on HNIC.

:angry:

[BHS]

Bertuzzi's assault doesn't even rank in the top 25 incidents in hockey history. Just curious how you feel about Bobby Clarke's incident with Kharlamov?

The whole argument is asinine, the incident 99/100 would have resulted in a headache and because of unlucky circumstances and a large group of people who know little to nothing about hockey this has been blown way out of proportion.

Your reply says nothing good about the sport of hockey. In my opinion, it's not better than legitimized roller derby with sticks. The league won't take violence seriously because it would lower the appeal rating for bloodsport fans, but it won't really be a worth my time, at least, until they do.

I played hockey as a kid, and I know plenty about the sport and it's fans. The most asinine things I've read in this thread are all displays of defensiveness about how hockey violence is all part of the game. It's not. Football is a very tough physical sport, but you don't see nearly the same level of violence in football, because it's not tolerated, and it wouldn ruin the game.

No he doesn't, hes had a couple of incidents hardly a long history and in every incident he as standing up for a teammate who had taken a cheap shot.

Whatever. Explain it away however you want. It's really just bum fighting videos with toothless multimillionares substituted in for toothless winos.

Never actually competed at a very high level of anything have you? Because there is no such thing as sportsmanship which you get to the level that Bertuzzi has reached, there is only the appearance of sportsmanship.

Because, you know, the Olympics have nothing to do with sportsmanship, god forbid. I'm guessing you, on the otherhand, are a world class... well, something.

He got exactly what he would have gotten if it had happened on the street, a slap on the wrist.

Which says nothing good about either the NHL or Canadian justice.

Its funny you should bring up Joe, since hes been a huge supporter of Bertuzzi's throughout the entire ordeal.

Hmm, a classy guy having the class not to publicly disparage a colleague despite their different approach to the game. Besides which, an indictment of Bertuzzi is an indictment of the whole friggin' league, and every player knows it. Such is the sad state of the game.

But of course calling Moores neck broken is as honest as saying someone who gets a chipped touch has a broken jaw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Funny, I don't remember chipped teeth ever ending a lucrative career. Is Moore still playing, or no?

[seabee]

A few interisting coincidences:

Shane Doan makes racist remarks.

Denis Coderre, a liberal, denounces them.

There is a federal election going on.

The Bloc Québécois leads in all polls, and the liberals are likely to loose a few ridings.

The movie "Maurice Richard", which shows how he resisted racist attacks, is a hit in Québec.

I do not know how to make sense of all this.

[BHS]

What about Shane Doan, who called referees "fucking Frenchmen"?

link:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that not only he wasnt good enough to be on the team but its a lack of judgment from team canada.

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when is "quebecker" a race? The world you're looking for is bigotry.

[Bakunin]

bakunin, vraiment.

Les mots de denis coderre a ete tres stupide.

Aujourd`hui Colin Campbell, le president executif de la LHN a dit "Mr Coderre should focus on getting re-elected and not on how we run our business."

There is no proof to the accusations about what Shane Doan said.

Who deserved to be on the team ahead of Doan? Toute les troiseme membres dans le "taxi squad" est anglophones...

I think that not only he wasnt good enough to be on the team but its a lack of judgment from team canada.

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... "Il y a une dizaine de jours, le capitaine de l'équipe des Coyotes de Phoenix faisait part de sa frustration aux quatre arbitres francophones qui veillaient à maintenir l'ordre dans la partie contre les Canadiens de Montréal. Visiblement insatisfait de la défaite qui semblait inévitable, Doan a traité les arbitres de «fucking Frenchmen» à quelques minutes de la fin du match."

This is so ridiculous, racism is socially accepted unless you think that the 4 referee where not credible enough to be considered a trustworthy proof... will they have to tape him next time ?

As for the player that could have taken his place: spezza,staal,tanguay,savard,marleau,kariya,sullivan,shanahan,brière,bergeron, ryder but personally i would have taken crosby.

[Bakunin]

What about Shane Doan, who called referees "fucking Frenchmen"?

link:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that not only he wasnt good enough to be on the team but its a lack of judgment from team canada.

Looks like racism against quebecker is socially accepted and makes you a perfect choice to represent canada...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since when is "quebecker" a race? The world you're looking for is bigotry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt he was talking about french from france to 4 quebec referee in a game in montreal.

[seabee]

(...)the 4 referee where not credible enough to be considered a trustworthy proof...

Of course, they were not; they were "fucking Frenchmen"

[I Miss Trudeau]

This is so ridiculous, racism is socially accepted unless you think that the 4 referee where not credible enough to be considered a trustworthy proof... will they have to tape him next time ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone else find it odd that the league trusts (and pays) these people to officiate games, but won't believe them here?

[Riverwind]

This is so ridiculous, racism is socially accepted unless you think that the 4 referee where not credible enough to be considered a trustworthy proof... will they have to tape him next time ?

Athletes swear at referees all the time but it does not make the news. Calling the refs 'fucking frenchmen' is offensive but so is calling them 'mother f**ckers'. Furthermore, he was complaining about bias in the refs calls which favoured the 'french' home team.

Playing the 'racism' card grossly exaggerates what happened.

[Bakunin]

This is so ridiculous, racism is socially accepted unless you think that the 4 referee where not credible enough to be considered a trustworthy proof... will they have to tape him next time ?

Athletes swear at referees all the time but it does not make the news. Calling the refs 'fucking frenchmen' is offensive but so is calling them 'mother f**ckers'. Furthermore, he was complaining about bias in the refs calls which favoured the 'french' home team.

Playing the 'racism' card grossly exaggerates what happened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what i mean, its ok to bash at quebeckers, its socially accepted.

Weither its doan, cherry or avery, who cares... they never pay for what they say.

[seabee]

Playing the 'racism' card grossly exaggerates what happened.

True. After all, he is only a "fucking" Anglo-Canadian.