UPS uses NAFTA to stop Canada Post Courier Service

[err]

UPS, the world's largest package delivery firm, first filed a claim for $160 million US against the Canadian government in April 2000 under the North American Free Trade Agreement. A decision from the tribunal could take more than a year once the hearings end.

Other American firms have successfully challenged Canadian policy decisions.

But the UPS case represents the first time Ottawa is being pressured to withdraw from an established government program or service, said Joseph Zebrowski, spokesman for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, representing 56,000 people.

The benefits of Free Trade. Next, they'll be able to go after our medical system, as it provides "unfair competition" to private, "for profit" medical care.

See Toronto Star Article: UPS trade complaint worries Canada Post workers

[kimmy]

I haven't done any exhaustive studies on the subject, but it seems to me that given Canada Post's prices for courier services, the proposition that they're unfairly subsidized might be difficult to prove. If they do obtain a successful verdict, we can just tell them to take it out of the $5 billion they owe us.

On occassions when I buy things by internet, I seldom have it shipped by Canada Post if I have a choice. Fed-ex provides much handier tracking service and better delivery. With Canada Post I know beforehand that the delivery guy is just going to slam a sticker on my door and I'll have to trudge down to their location the next day. :angry: The Fed-Ex guy at least tries to actually deliver the package. UPS delivery is ok, but I've had trouble with their tracker, and on situations when I've had to call the company to get information, I found the people I spoke to were utterly incomprehensible... to the point that I wasn't even sure they were speaking english. Not good.

-k

[err]

I haven't done any exhaustive studies on the subject, but it seems to me that given Canada Post's prices for courier services, the proposition that they're unfairly subsidized might be difficult to prove.  If they do obtain a successful verdict, we can just tell them to take it out of the $5 billion they owe us.

On occassions when I buy things by internet, I seldom have it shipped by Canada Post if I have a choice. Fed-ex provides much handier tracking service and better delivery. With Canada Post I know beforehand that the delivery guy is just going to slam a sticker on my door and I'll have to trudge down to their location the next day.  :angry:  The Fed-Ex guy at least tries to actually deliver the package. UPS delivery is ok, ............

Hi... I rarely use Canada Post for courier... I also use Fedex and UPS.. However, the issue is more that NAFTA allows these kinds of "attacks" on our country... not good...

[stubblejumper]

My question would be : Why are they not suing the US Postal Service for the same thing?

[fellowtraveller]

Doesn't Canada Post own Purolator, as well as run its own internal ExpressPost courier system?

The internal system would certainly benefit from the massive infrastructure of Canada Post, facilities and equipment, much of which was paid for by government either directly or indirectly.

If so, UPS likely has a case.

[stubblejumper]

USPS also runs its own courier service and would also benefit from the same infrastructure.

[fellowtraveller]

Does USPS own Purolator in the USA?

[Yaro]

Yup, can't compete with public sector? Isn't the private sector always more efficient? gee that's a very difficult thing to reconcile isn't it?

[August1991]

I frankly think sending e-mails and on-line bill payments should be forbidden. The Internet is the greatest threat to Canada Post's business and is a form of unfair competition. Because of e-mail, many postal employees have lost their jobs and many post offices have had to close. In small and large towns in Canada, a post office is an important part of cultural life.

The government must stop the spread of the world wide Internet that is threatening an important part of the Canadian economy. Soon, there will be no jobs left for Canadians - we'll all be like postal employees, jobless and impoverished.

[Slim MacSquinty]

Shouldn't you want to get the facts before you jump to conclusion those nasty Americans are trying to screw us?

[Yaro]

Who's says the Americans are trying to screw us? Its quite clearly us who are screwing ourselves by signing agreements like NAFTA.

[August1991]

Can someone please explain in what way UPS is different from the Internet?

If we should prevent UPS from causing harm to Canada Post, then we should prevent the Internet from causing harm to Canada Post too.

I fail to see why protection in one case is justified but not the other.

[Riverwind]

If we should prevent UPS from causing harm to Canada Post, then we should prevent the Internet from causing harm to Canada Post too.

August,

You misunderstand the issue. UPS is using NAFTA to sue Canada Post because it alleges unfair competition. In other words, it is UPS who is seeking to have its business protected by shutting Canada Post out of the competitive marketplace. This is not a case where Canada Post is trying stifle competition.

It is worth noting that the US Postal Service operates a similar courier service that also competes with UPS but UPS cannot sue the US Postal Service under US law - they can only get away with this extortion because of NAFTA.

[Yaro]

WTF are you talking about? that's about the stupidest parallel ever made, this is a pair of companies in competition and UPS saying they can't compete. Canada Post doesn't need protection from anything, its UPS that's asking for protection from competition from Canada Post.

[Canuck E Stan]

Err,

Hi... I rarely use Canada Post for courier... I also use Fedex and UPS..

That's quite a statement for a devout NDPer to make.

A Dipper not supporting a union?

What would your union brothers and sisters think?....I suppose you drive a foreign car...

[err]

Err,

Hi... I rarely use Canada Post for courier... I also use Fedex and UPS..

That's quite a statement for a devout NDPer to make.

A Dipper not supporting a union?

What would your union brothers and sisters think?....I suppose you drive a foreign car...

A Dipper not supporting a union.... how about a Dork who cant understand practicalities....

PS. One of my cars is American.

[August1991]

If we should prevent UPS from causing harm to Canada Post, then we should prevent the Internet from causing harm to Canada Post too.

August,

You misunderstand the issue. UPS is using NAFTA to sue Canada Post because it alleges unfair competition. In other words, it is UPS who is seeking to have its business protected by shutting Canada Post out of the competitive marketplace. This is not a case where Canada Post is trying stifle competition.

It is worth noting that the US Postal Service operates a similar courier service that also competes with UPS but UPS cannot sue the US Postal Service under US law - they can only get away with this extortion because of NAFTA.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sparhawk, I think Canada Post is not trying to stifle competition, it is stifling competition. Imagine if our telephone, postal and cable-TV systems were combined into a single monopoly. How would someone introduce the Internet? What ISP would we have?

More subtly, I'm making the comparison between trade and a new technology. The post office is an excellent example. A new firm on the block, a new trade partner is like a new technology. It makes ordinary people richer because it gives them a choice they didn't have before.

----

Canada Post is a state-sanctioned monopoly. I'll give you two quotes to consider:

Canada Post Corporation and delivers unsolicited, unaddressed advertising and promotional materials to locked apartment mailboxes. It has custody of keys allowing access to these apartment mailboxes. The applicants also distribute unaddressed flyers either as inserts in newspapers or through various forms of extended market coverage, notably door-to-door distribution. The applicants argue that they are at a disadvantage when it comes to distribution in apartment buildings: they must have the landlord's permission to enter the building and to leave flyers in the lobby; rarely are the applicants permitted access to the hallways; they are never permitted access to apartment building mailboxes.

Some Federal Tribunal

14. (1) Subject to section 15, the Corporation has the sole and exclusive privilege of collecting, transmitting and delivering letters to the addressee thereof within Canada.

Canada Post Act

You might want to read also the following:

More governments now recognize that the postal monopoly is a dinosaur in the new technological reality. They are stopping the drain on public resources and improving service.

One such country is New Zealand, a place where all political parties embrace the reasonable proposition that the public sector must use resources as efficiently as possible. As part of its wider public sector overhaul, its Labour Government jettisoned the low-performance post office model in 1987, with its overstaffing, chronic losses, and big public subsidies.

While still retaining its first class mail monopoly, NZ Post moved to add customer service and efficiency to its operations.

Some Web Site

[Cameron]

I frankly think sending e-mails and on-line bill payments should be forbidden.  The Internet is the greatest threat to Canada Post's business and is a form of unfair competition.  Because of e-mail, many postal employees have lost their jobs and many post offices have had to close.  In small and large towns in Canada, a post office is an important part of cultural life.

The government must stop the spread of the world wide Internet that is threatening an important part of the Canadian economy.  Soon, there will be no jobs left for Canadians - we'll all be like postal employees, jobless and impoverished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please tell me you are kidding with that comment....

[Yaro]

Sparhawk, I think Canada Post is not trying to stifle competition, it is stifling competition. Imagine if our telephone, postal and cable-TV systems were combined into a single monopoly. How would someone introduce the Internet? What ISP would we have?

Again wtf does any of this have to do with the internet? There isn't even the remotest connection here.

14. (1) Subject to section 15, the Corporation has the sole and exclusive privilege of collecting, transmitting and delivering letters to the addressee thereof within Canada.

Unless UPS is being barred from delivering mail to people, which I know for a fact there not this is completely irrelevant.

Your way off on some insane tangent here how about actually discussing the topic? Canada Post is de facto not a monopoly, UPS is in direct competition, UPS is unable to compete therefore sues Canada Post on trumped up grounds in order to remove it from competition.

Canada Post Corporation and delivers unsolicited, unaddressed advertising and promotional materials to locked apartment mailboxes. It has custody of keys allowing access to these apartment mailboxes. The applicants also distribute unaddressed flyers either as inserts in newspapers or through various forms of extended market coverage, notably door-to-door distribution. The applicants argue that they are at a disadvantage when it comes to distribution in apartment buildings: they must have the landlord's permission to enter the building and to leave flyers in the lobby; rarely are the applicants permitted access to the hallways; they are never permitted access to apartment building mailboxes.

What a retarded argument, that mail box access isn't decided on by Canada post, its chosen by the individual owners of those boxes. UPS's bone isn't with Canada Post its with landlords and strata's that don't give them access.

Oh and posting an article from 1997 when New Zealand had declared bankruptcy and was run by psychotic ultra right wingers doesn't help your case it sort of embaresses it since virtually all the changes made during that period have since been overturned.

[Riverwind]

More subtly, I'm making the comparison between trade and a new technology.  The post office is an excellent example.  A new firm on the block, a new trade partner is like a new technology.  It makes ordinary people richer because it gives them a choice they didn't have before.

And UPS is trying to limit consumer choice by forcing Canada Post out of the business. UPS is the only courier company complaining - FedEx does not seem to have an issue with Canada Post's competition (although it would be happy to see a competitor knocked out of the market).

Canada Post is a state-sanctioned monopoly.  I'll give you two quotes to consider:

Canada Post has no monopoly on the courier business. Furthermore, UPS also has to compete with a similar service offered by the US Postal Service. UPS is manipulating the trade rules to give itself an unfair advantage that hurts consumers - I do not believe that UPS would leave the Canadian market if it loses the NAFTA case - it is just a cash grab.

You are raising legimiate issues when it comes to the 'unaddressed advertising and promotional materials' market but we are not talking about that market (aside: I would love to see junk mail market be regulated out of business).

[August1991]

I frankly think sending e-mails and on-line bill payments should be forbidden.  The Internet is the greatest threat to Canada Post's business and is a form of unfair competition.  Because of e-mail, many postal employees have lost their jobs and many post offices have had to close.  In small and large towns in Canada, a post office is an important part of cultural life.

The government must stop the spread of the world wide Internet that is threatening an important part of the Canadian economy.  Soon, there will be no jobs left for Canadians - we'll all be like postal employees, jobless and impoverished.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please tell me you are kidding with that comment....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm dead serious, Cameron. I've already written Paul Martin about this.

The PM answered by saying that protecting Canadian jobs in the new economic paradigm was his first priority and that as PM, he considered it his primary duty to defend Canadian cultural values. He added that he understood how important my local Canada Post was to the vibrancy of my community and he was working energetically to ensure the vibrancy of local communities.

[August1991]

Again wtf does any of this have to do with the internet? There isn't even the remotest connection here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Internet is new technology. UPS is a new form of trade. New technology and trade are the same thing.

14. (1) Subject to section 15, the Corporation has the sole and exclusive privilege of collecting, transmitting and delivering letters to the addressee thereof within Canada.

Unless UPS is being barred from delivering mail to people, which I know for a fact there not this is completely irrelevant.

Your way off on some insane tangent here how about actually discussing the topic? Canada Post is de facto not a monopoly, UPS is in direct competition, UPS is unable to compete therefore sues Canada Post on trumped up grounds in order to remove it from competition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Insane tangent? In case you don't know, Section 14 of the Canada Post Corporation Act is what grants Canada Post the monopoly to carry First Class mail. If you've ever wondered why FedEx envelopes are so large, that's the reason. I think they must charge about three times more than Canada Post and the envelope must be twice as large. (Don't worry; the act allows you to carry a small personal letter to a friend without charge - if you wrote the letter. See Section 15 of the Act.)

[Yaro]

Insane tangent? In case you don't know, Section 14 of the Canada Post Corporation Act is what grants Canada Post the monopoly to carry First Class mail. If you've ever wondered why FedEx envelopes are so large, that's the reason. I think they must charge about three times more than Canada Post and the envelope must be twice as large. (Don't worry; the act allows you to carry a small personal letter to a friend without charge - if you wrote the letter. See Section 15 of the Act.)

The insane tangent was the internet, not the issues with mail (which wasn't brought up and is a legitimate concern), but in no reasonable way is a new service provider like a a new technology.

[Canuck E Stan]

Err,

A Dipper not supporting a union.... how about a Dork who cant understand practicalities....

PS. One of my cars is American.

What happened to the pacticality of keeping your fellow Canadian employed as you have stated so many times about union people needing to make a decent living too.

What happened to you brother?

Don't you care for them anymore.

So what if the service is crappy or overpriced or unreliable,isn't it a Dipper's duty to look out for these people and make sure they stay employed?

You own more than one car?

Isn't that a Dipper no-no?

The environment doesn't need this kind of excess.

Shame on you Err,preaching about environmental damage and owning more than one car.

And your other car isn't Domestic?

Why?

Isn't the quality of Union built domestic autos not up to your standard?

I hope your American car wasn't built in America,seeing as you don't think much of Americans and their policies,it would be hypocritical of you to be condemning Americans but supporting them economically.

[err]

I'm dead serious, Cameron. I've already written Paul Martin about this.

The PM answered by saying that protecting Canadian jobs in the new economic paradigm was his first priority and that as PM, he considered it his primary duty to defend Canadian cultural values.  He added that he understood how important my local Canada Post was to the vibrancy of my community and he was working energetically to ensure the vibrancy of local communities.

I hate to burst your bubble August, but you got a form letter....