Rioting in Australia

[kimmy]

BBC news: riots in Sydney

Violence triggered by race tensions has hit Sydney for a second night, with youths damaging cars and shops.

A reporter in the suburb of Cronulla, where dozens were arrested after riots on Sunday, described scenes of "chaos".

Police said carloads of people had come into the area from other parts of Sydney and committed violent acts.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard condemned the weekend's attacks by thousands of young white men on people of Arabic and Mediterranean background.

(...)

Thousands of young white men attacked people of Arabic and Mediterranean background on Cronulla Beach on Sunday.

The fighting injured more than 30 people, including police officers, and at least 16 people were arrested.

The clashes follow an assault on two lifeguards last week, reportedly by youths of Middle Eastern origin.

It sounds like something of a flip-side to what happened in France recently.

I wonder, if Tawasakm us still around, if he could give some more insight into this?

-k

[BHS]

It's not really the reverse of France. Attacks are being perpetrated by hooligans from both ethnicities. The BBC, true to form, ignores this aspect, and buries the attack on lifeguards that triggered the riots to the last sentence of the article.

[Argus]

From what I understand this is a particular beachside community which has been protective of itself for some decades. Of late, a train which reaches into the less desirable parts of Sydney has been bringing lots of Arab immigrants there who have been acting in ways the locals dissaprove of, particularly by hanging around in large groups and intimidating and harrassing locals. The Arab women insist on going into the water fully clothed, with those bedsheets on, and Arab men try to keep all males well away as in their culture men and women are not permitted to swim together. Also, of course, the viewpoint they take from being in that culture is that all western, ie, Australian women they see on the beach in bathing suits are whores, and they treat them accordingly. There have been some incidents of violence which have gone unpunished and unremarked in the regular press due, according to the locals, to political correctness. The Aussie government at all levels is FAR more politically correct than ours is, or, hopefully, will ever be. Thus that directive reposted in another thread here to Ausie police to be sensitive about Arab cultural habits like wife beating, and not to arrest the men as they normally would but to turn it over to the local mullah if possible.

In any event, when any community considers that it is being mistreated by another, and nothing is being done about it by the authorities, then eventually things are going to boil over. The mobs acted like mobs are wont to do, but, curiously, never bothered other minorities on the beach, such as Asians or Aborigines. They only went after Arabic looking types. So this is a specific grudge against a specific group due to misbehaviour, not skin colour or race.

[Black Dog]

They only went after Arabic looking types. So this is a specific grudge against a specific group due to misbehaviour, not skin colour or race.

Let me get this straight: they went after Arabic-looking types, but it's not about skin colour or race? Right, makes perfect sense. Sounds to me like the mob is guilty of the same broad generalizatons that characterize your post.

[sharkman]

I heard a report in the news that 60 arab youths had responded in kind with baseball bats, destroying cars at random. Don't think this is near over.

[Argus]

They only went after Arabic looking types. So this is a specific grudge against a specific group due to misbehaviour, not skin colour or race.

Let me get this straight: they went after Arabic-looking types, but it's not about skin colour or race? Right, makes perfect sense. Sounds to me like the mob is guilty of the same broad generalizatons that characterize your post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The group in question happens to Arabic, but I don't think their race is really the key element here. It's not that the mob hated brown skinned individuals or had philosophical problems with Islam. They had problems with a particular group who were coming to their area and causing trouble. It really didn't matter what the racial makeup of that group was, as such. Any outside group could have incited the same sort of reaction with the same sort of behaviour if the authorities were clueless enough to let it happen.

[Guest eureka]

I have heard that the "taking back of the Beach" was planned as a peaceful demonstration but that it was taken over by Neo-Nazis and similar groups.

It is hard to say how ot would have unfolded without that. The Lebanes, if that is what they all were, seem to have been ganf members who organized to meet the demonstrators.

There may be more to this than generalized racism.

[cybercoma]

It's not really the reverse of France. Attacks are being perpetrated by hooligans from both ethnicities. The BBC, true to form, ignores this aspect, and buries the attack on lifeguards that triggered the riots to the last sentence of the article.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually it was the rapes on teenaged girls that sparked the outrage, the attacks on lifeguards just fuelled it.

[Riverwind]

Actually it was the rapes on teenaged girls that sparked the outrage, the attacks on lifeguards just fuelled it.

That is a new angle - can you eloborate? Source?

[Shakeyhands]

It's not really the reverse of France. Attacks are being perpetrated by hooligans from both ethnicities. The BBC, true to form, ignores this aspect, and buries the attack on lifeguards that triggered the riots to the last sentence of the article.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually it was the rapes on teenaged girls that sparked the outrage, the attacks on lifeguards just fuelled it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It amazes me that anyone would think that either of these actions would justify what we are seeing happening in Australia now. Have we really become this uncivilized?

[Black Dog]

The group in question happens to Arabic, but I don't think their race is really the key element here. It's not that the mob hated brown skinned individuals or had philosophical problems with Islam. They had problems with a particular group who were coming to their area and causing trouble. It really didn't matter what the racial makeup of that group was, as such. Any outside group could have incited the same sort of reaction with the same sort of behaviour if the authorities were clueless enough to let it happen.

I'm curious now: do you have any background on this "troublemaker" angle? Reports I've seen have mentioned anyone of Arabic or Mediterranean apperance was tagetted. So even if we're talking about a specific group of troublemakers, the focus of the rioters was on any swarthy-types. Furthermore, it strikes me as a little odd that 5,000 people would descend upon this little community en masse to deal with a local problem. So even if we accept the premise that there was some tensions between the white and brown folks, it's clear that this was fuelled by general rascism and xenophobia.

[kimmy]

Remember the backlash in Holland after the film-maker was assassinated by a violent muslim critic? (click here for details...)

Ok, first off, I do agree with description of this as racism.

However, if the account Argus presents is accurate-- muslims descending on the beach en-masse, harrassing non-muslims and attempting to enforce their own views (that others may not be present when muslim women bathe, for instance) then doesn't the community itself bear some responsibility?

In response to incidents like terrorist attacks and the murder of Theo Van Gogh, what is the reaction of the muslim community? Overwhelmingly, it is silence, followed by some tepid statement from some minor imam or community organization to the effect that "The Quran does not support violence." Maybe muslims do not feel the need to be more proactive in their responses. But fairly or unfairly, these incidents are associated with the whole community and they tar the whole community with the same brush. If the response is always this same silence, doesn't that imply approval? Maybe the public reacts badly to muslims in general in response to incidents, it's in part because the muslim community hasn't done much to differentiate itself from the troublemakers?

-k

[theloniusfleabag]

I have seen and heard of many a bar-fight-cum-brawl because some drunken idiot hurled a racial epithet. Generally, there are two conditions that are also at play...alcohol, and the proximity of a number of friends. Then, everyone joins in, not because they believed or agreed with or were insulted by the epithet, but because they feel the need to defend their 'friend', then friends, then race, etc, so that it eventually does become a 'race riot'.

The police should put out a warning, that they will shoot indiscriminantly at rioters, whether they are black or white, yellow or green. If they want to have the rioters 'talk it over' and air their differences, they can round up the survivors and have a parley.

[Black Dog]

In response to incidents like terrorist attacks and the murder of Theo Van Gogh, what is the reaction of the muslim community? Overwhelmingly, it is silence, followed by some tepid statement from some minor imam or community organization to the effect that "The Quran does not support violence."

Well, what is the "muslim community"? Unlike, say, Catholicism, there's no central authority in the Islamic religion. So frequently, these "minor immans and community organizations" are the one's most representative of the whole. But even then, there are scores of divisions within Islam, nor are all Arabs adherents.

I don't understand this notion that Muslims the world over are somehow responsible for the actions of all Muslims.

Maybe muslims do not feel the need to be more proactive in their responses. But fairly or unfairly, these incidents are associated with the whole community and they tar the whole community with the same brush. If the response is always this same silence, doesn't that imply approval? Maybe the public reacts badly to muslims in general in response to incidents, it's in part because the muslim community hasn't done much to differentiate itself from the troublemakers?

Well, I guess when you start off by dismissing any condemnations that do come out as "tepid", it's easy to build a strawman argument that Muslims are silent. Assuming collective responsibility based on race is a pretty ugly proposition.

[kimmy]

Well, what is the "muslim community"? Unlike, say, Catholicism, there's no central authority in the Islamic religion. So frequently, these "minor immans and community organizations" are the one's most representative of the whole. But even then, there are scores of divisions within Islam, nor are all Arabs adherents.

I don't understand this notion that Muslims the world over are somehow responsible for the actions of all Muslims.

No, not the world over. But here. We have a number of muslim groups and associations that can make some effort at speaking on behalf of the community and on speaking to muslims within the country. I would assume the same can be said of Australia and Holland and England.

Well, I guess when you start off by dismissing any condemnations that do come out as "tepid", it's easy to build a strawman argument that Muslims are silent. Assuming collective responsibility based on race is a pretty ugly proposition.

Think back to last summer, when a variety of Canadian muslim groups banded together to condemn the terrorist attacks in London. It was groundbreaking... because it was pretty much a first. Because it wasn't "tepid", and because the thrust of the statement was condemnation and not denial, and because the community itself was recognizing that there's an element of truth in what I'm saying: that like it or not the public perception of their community was damaged by the incident and that failing to acknowledge this only adds to the perception of indifference.

I remember a Chris Rock bit, where he says "we need a race war... between the black people and the n***ers." He goes on to explain himself: black people, being black people... and n***ers being black people that are ruining the reputation of black people around the country.

Pretty ugly, indeed. But denying that people make stereotypes and assumptions and associations is just naive. I don't know what percentage of natives in Edmonton are gang members, but when I see a group of natives rolling towards me at a transit station, I can't help feeling nervous. Fair? No. Ugly? Yes. But I can't help it. I don't want to make it sound like I'm defending making blanket judgments about groups of people based on ethnic origin... I'm just saying it happens whether you like it or not. And if muslim communities don't like the associations people make, they ought to be very vocal about it, not just in denying responsibility, but actually showing some concern over the problems that are occuring.

-k

[Black Dog]

No, not the world over. But here. We have a number of muslim groups and associations that can make some effort at speaking on behalf of the community and on speaking to muslims within the country. I would assume the same can be said of Australia and Holland and England.

Yep. But right away, you dismiss anything they have to say.

Think back to last summer, when a variety of Canadian muslim groups banded together to condemn the terrorist attacks in London. It was groundbreaking... because it was pretty much a first.

Bull. Don't confuse your ignorance of what's out there with the reality:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks

Or how about this unprecedented display of Islamic ecumenism which "would end the practice of defaming others as apostates and close the door on ignorant people who practice killing and terrorism - of which Islam is innocent - in the name of Islam."

So the Muslim voice is out there. Maybe you're just not listening.

But denying that people make stereotypes and assumptions and associations is just naive.

Who's denying it? But if sopmeone is making unreasonable assumptions about someone based ont the colour of their skin, then perhaps its that individual's responsibility and not the community they are predjudiced against.

[Black Dog]

Here's an article that talks about the "troublemaker" hypothesis. Interestingly enough, the Muslim angle isn't there at all. Rather, the problem seems to be the more universal ones of young men and testostorone.

[Montgomery Burns]

I read this a couple of days ago. Today, I saw CBC's George Parala...(the guy with the long last name and all the earrings and piercings--used to be on MuchMusic) interviewing an Aussie university professor. Both George and the professor blamed it on "Islamophobia", of course.

Lots of news about this from Australia's premiere blogger, Tim Blair.

Apparently the Australian is in full Dhimmi mode trying to excuse the rapes and violence, by blaming it on John Howard for sending troops to Iraq.

[Montgomery Burns]

Also, a report on the Islamic rape wave going on in Sweden.

Warning: The pic of one of the rape victims is kinda graphic.

[kimmy]

There seems to be a culture clash. While many involved seem to be Lebanese-- almost certainly muslim-- it's not clear that muslim beliefs have a role in the conflict, so I will lay off that aspect of it for the time being.

Who's denying it? But if sopmeone is making unreasonable assumptions about someone based ont the colour of their skin, then perhaps its that individual's responsibility and not the community they are predjudiced against.

Well, who has a bigger vested interest in challenging these misconceptions? Those who risk missing out on some tasty (?) shawarma if they don't challenge these misconceptions, or those who could be at risk of ostracism or even violence if they don't challenge these misconceptions?

If there were widespread belief that the evil Blondes were causing the downfall of civilization, and if this belief were leading to random curb-stompings of blondes... I assure you I wouldn't be waiting for others to change their views. I'd be doing everything in my power-- writing, speaking, whatever-- to change peoples' minds (and, likely, buying some good hair-color products as well, but that's beside the point.)

-k

[Argus]

There seems to be a culture clash. While many involved seem to be Lebanese-- almost certainly muslim-- it's not clear that muslim beliefs have a role in the conflict, so I will lay off that aspect of it for the time being.

YESTERDAY a colleague emailed me from New York. The young lawyer - her

family lives in Brighton-Le-Sands, a bayside suburb north of Cronulla

in Sydney - wrote: "While I agree there is no justifying excuse for the

violence and breakdown in order that occurred at Cronulla, it needs to

be put in context. Unless you live in an area like Cronulla,

Brighton-Le-Sands or Bondi, you have no idea what it is like to have

one's suburb regularly inundated with large groups of young Muslim men

from the western suburbs who proceed to shoot people [as has happened

in Brighton], intimidate people, regularly threaten people within their

vicinity with violence, drive around in large groups screaming abuse at

people from cars with their music blaring, regularly brawling, etc."

This young woman recounted that all of the girls in her family (except

the youngest) have been "subject to harassment inflicted by groups of

these men - comments on our appearances, racist comments on our

Australian background, unwanted touching, being followed while walking

home by groups of men in cars (I was once followed all the way home -

have never been so scared in my life), sexually explicit remarks while

alone, with friends or with boyfriends, unwanted called-out invitations

to have sex with groups of them, etc".

The Australian

[Tawasakm]

I suspect that it is a little simplistic to be looking for a universal motivating factor to the 'race riots' in Cronulla. Some were no doubt there for a peaceful protest. Some probably did not want a peaceful protest. I'll bet there were different motivations for those in either group.

There has been trouble and tension in the area for some time between Lebonese gangs and locals and other beach goers. That tension has been building over time and would explain the prescence of a portion of the protestors. I don't believe it was about the lifeguards being beaten (or at least not exclusively). I think that was a rally point - an expression of what they saw as being wrong and what needed to end. Some seemed to want a peaceful solution while others seemed to want all Lebanese gone.

I see more 'agendas' being present then that however. The crowd was dotted with white supremicists. I doubt I need to explain their agenda. There is also a section of the population which is against anything Muslim or Islamic or perceived to be. Particular since 9/11 and subsequent events and all the associated rhetoric. I doubt their agenda needs explaining either. Further there would be people who would have joined in just to be a part of it or to join the crowd or for any number of such reasons.

In short I don't believe the crowd was homogenous but was heterogenous. Once together though large crowds can tend to be united. 'Mob rule' has been explored extensively throughout the years. Whatever sparked this crowd off - be it alcohol, inciters or whatever, the meaning of what drew them together became lost I think. The crowd became a mob. The indiscrimate targeting was disgraceful. As an example are two bangladeshis who will be going home and never returning after they were targeted. Mob rule never works. The mob failed to target those it was gathered to protest against.

The lebanese are no better. There is a history of gang violence in the area. Also there are reports of many Lebanese travelling from other cities to the trouble area. Violence so often begets more violence.

So I believe if you want to analyse this problem then you need to look at it from a number of different perspectives. I very much doubt there is one cause for all in this situation.

[Montgomery Burns]

It continues:

SHOTS were fired at teachers' cars, and parents and children were abused at a primary school Christmas carol service in Sydney, the Catholic Church has said.  The Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, George Pell, said people at a service on Monday night at St Joseph the Worker Primary School in Auburn were abused by men of Middle Eastern appearance.

He said shots were also heard and staff yesterday morning found bullet holes in their cars.  No one was hurt.  Cardinal Pell says he is deeply concerned by the targeting of Christmas celebrations for students as young as five and the attack appears to have been motivated by religious intolerance.

And more

4 churches attacked in Sydney--community hall linked to church burnt to the ground and Chinese church has windows smashed

Sydney police warned not to antagonise Mid East criminals

SMH online political writer Andrew West reposts yanked article that was critical of some forms of Islam

His reason for removing the original post?

“The problem was that a lot of folks—not all—on both sides just didn’t, or wouldn’t, get it.”

Apparently his readers disagreed, thus the reposting of the entry.

West also added: "It’s important to point out this was entirely a unilateral decision [to remove the original post]. There was no pressure, suggestions, hints, “counselling”, warnings, or friendly advice whatsoever from colleagues or editors at the Herald or Fairfax. The decision was mine alone. I consulted no one."

Hmm. From what I have seen of the media, I am a tad suspicious of West's claim.

Especially when the SMH takes PM John Howard to task:

Neither one, most obviously, felt any responsibility that community apprehension about national security and the "war on terror" could have played any part in Sunday's violence.

Good heavens, no. Howard was most indignant at the suggestion.

Q: "Do you think anything the Government said over the last few years has set the tone for the actions on the weekend?"

PM: "Which Government?"

Q: "Your Government."

PM: "My Government?"

Reporter: "Yes."

PM: "Certainly not. What do you have in mind?"

Q: "Your position on Iraq."

PM: "My position on Iraq?"

Q: "Do you think that's had any influence on people feeling alienated?"

PM: "My position on Iraq? You've got to be joking."

Nobody was joking.

Why am I not surprised that the reporters weren't joking?

It's not the criminal's fault; it's Howard's fault for helping to liberate 25 million Iraqis!

Yeesh.

[Montgomery Burns]

Black Dog:

Bull. Don't confuse your ignorance of what's out there with the reality:

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks:

Are you really this ignorant, naive, or is it your constant knee-jerk reaction to always take the side that is against President Bush or the USA?

The 1st link is to CAIR, whose (now) former member - Ismail Royer - is in jail for 20 years after pleading guilty last year to training terrorists in Virginia for jihad against the US.

And CAIR and CAIR Canada have been named as defendants in a 9-11 terror lawsuit. CAIR has many ties to terrorist groups and groups that fund terrorism.

What the hell were you smoking when you linked to CAIR? Do you even read who you are linking to?

The 2nd person (Dr. Maher Hathout) in your 2nd link is from the the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), an anti-Semitic group that has defended terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah.

Congratulations. You're batting 1000% in the first 2 links I checked.

I'm sure many of the people you linked to are sincere and good law-abiding Muslims, but from the past history of many Islamic groups, you must remember that publically many say one thing, but privately it is a different story.

When I have some more time (maybe on the weekend), I am going to investigate more of the sources you linked to.

I am positive that I will find more "interesting" information; I'm 2 for 2 so far.

[Argus]

"The Australian media is as tightly controlled on reporting these kinds of issues as the British media, not surprising given the overlap of ownership, and the background to the vigilante style attacks seems to have been overlooked. Video footage showing gangs of white youths as drunken thugs and commentators calling them “racists” and “white supremacists” has been broadcast here for the past 36hrs and sends a shiver down the spines of limp-wristed liberals everywhere. But the views coming from the average guy coming home from work today (Monday) has been a total chorus of approval for the actions of the white lads defending their females, their beach, their territory. It is something “long overdue” and “bound to happen” and “totally natural for guys to defend their territory, happens in nature all the time” were some of the comments I heard from the shop floor today.

Violence at Cronulla is nothing new; over the past 20 months gangs of Lebanese youths have made life hell for the local people of this beach suburb of Australia’s biggest city. Just a few miles away is Lakemba with its notorious mosque on the Wangee Road, centre point for the rapidly growing Muslim community. Cronulla is the nearest beach to Lakemba and for nearly two years gangs of Lebanese youths have targeted the stretch of dunes. It is a really beautiful beach, great for swimmers, surfers and sunbathers alike, patrolled by life guards who give up their free time to keep bathers safe, a tradition which goes back nearly 90 years.

Catalogue of violence

There have been scores of knife attacks, women and girls assaulted and a really nasty spate of “steaming” where the “brothers” as they call themselves rampage along the beach stealing whatever they can find; mobile phones, MP3 players and jewellery are the choicest pickings. Last weekend (4th) a Lebanese gang attacked a life guard post leaving one of the victims unconscious. That was the trigger for a backlash by local people who have complained about one sided police action; when a Lebanese carries out a crime a policeman is never found but police crack down on local white youths in their utes (pick-up trucks – ed.) for playing music loud or drinking in stationary cars parked on the dunes. A local mall has been repeatedly trashed for months and desperate traders have had to pay for private security guards because the police just are not interested. Local residents are furious with this “tip toeing” so they do not appear to be offending the ethnic minorities."

Multiculralism to blame for riots