I am Groot Posted September 2, 2023 Report Posted September 2, 2023 3 hours ago, ExFlyer said: OI think it is you that does not understand how bureaucracy works. The PM is a civil servant, just the the others. He may want but he does not dictate or often, does not get. No, he cannot just tell the NCC to tear it down. It is a Heritage building and the rules for those are, well, onerous, at best. ? Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 2, 2023 Report Posted September 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, I am Groot said: ? Roll your eyes all you want but, reality is quite different form you perception. For some reason people think that the PM is the almighty leader. He is not. Fact is, he leads government in policy and makes laws not government processes or how things are done. It does not matter if he is liberal or conservative. You can claim he tells bureaucrats what to do but you are wrong. He makes requests and if it is within the rules, it can be done but still may not. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted September 3, 2023 Report Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Roll your eyes all you want but, reality is quite different form you perception. For some reason people think that the PM is the almighty leader. He is not. Fact is, he leads government in policy and makes laws not government processes or how things are done. It does not matter if he is liberal or conservative. You can claim he tells bureaucrats what to do but you are wrong. He makes requests and if it is within the rules, it can be done but still may not. Sure. A public servant can say no. Then he can pack up his desk (assuming he still has one) and wait for his transfer to a different position where he'll be given a desk, a PC and no work to do until he realizes his career is over and quits. The PMO appoints all deputy ministers now. You know this, yes? Every senior exec, every manager lives with the fear that something they do will come to the attention of the media and result in questions in the House. And they will do anything they can do prevent that lest the government decide to take out their unhappiness on them. There is no job security in the public service if you anger the PMO. To think otherwise is painfully naive. I've been at meetings where managers expressed the anxious reaction of their bosses, the directors and DGs at an unhappy ministers office, let alone the PMO. the PMO and the PM MAKE the rules, okay. Anyone who works fo the government who challenges that soon won't be working for the government. Edited September 3, 2023 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 3, 2023 Report Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: Sure. A public servant can say no. Then he can pack up his desk (assuming he still has one) and wait for his transfer to a different position where he'll be given a desk, a PC and no work to do until he realizes his career is over and quits. The PMO appoints all deputy ministers now. You know this, yes? Every senior exec, every manager lives with the fear that something they do will come to the attention of the media and result in questions in the House. And they will do anything they can do prevent that lest the government decide to take out their unhappiness on them. There is no job security in the public service if you anger the PMO. To think otherwise is painfully naive. I've been at meetings where managers expressed the anxious reaction of their bosses, the directors and DGs at an unhappy ministers office, let alone the PMO. the PMO and the PM MAKE the rules, okay. Anyone who works fo the government who challenges that soon won't be working for the government. Oh stop. LOL This is about the deteriorated house, not a PM that does not even lived there after what, 13+ years? LOL Some, nor as many as you may think, deputy ministers are appointed but normally when the presiding party leaves office. Deputy minsters cannot override NCC decisions (or lack of decisions). Try firing a servant Ha! Good luck with that LOL There has never been a public servant fired by a PM or minister. There would be a huge union shitstorm LOL The PM does not "make the rules". He would have to pass a bill or act to change existing rules and regulations. No civil servant ever challenges the PM, they just point out the rules, regulations, acts, bills and laws and complies with them. In my experience with 2 major crown projects we have often had ministers (his staff actually) try to interfere and all we did was tell them to send us official letter telling us to violate the procurement procedure. and which of the regulations to violate. We never heard back. Bottom line is that Trudeau did not even move into a house that was deemed unlivable. All the complaining Harper and his predecessors did changed nothing so, the house sits empty. Trudeau has nothing to do with it. Edited September 3, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted September 3, 2023 Report Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ExFlyer said: Oh stop. LOL This is about the deteriorated house, not a PM that does not even lived there after what, 13+ years? LOL Some, nor as many as you may think, deputy ministers are appointed but normally when the presiding party leaves office. Deputy minsters cannot override NCC decisions (or lack of decisions). Try firing a servant Ha! Good luck with that LOL There has never been a public servant fired by a PM or minister. There would be a huge union shitstorm LOL The PM does not "make the rules". He would have to pass a bill or act to change existing rules and regulations. No civil servant ever challenges the PM, they just point out the rules, regulations, acts, bills and laws and complies with them. In my experience with 2 major crown projects we have often had ministers (his staff actually) try to interfere and all we did was tell them to send us official letter telling us to violate the procurement procedure. and which of the regulations to violate. We never heard back. Bottom line is that Trudeau did not even move into a house that was deemed unlivable. All the complaining Harper and his predecessors did changed nothing so, the house sits empty. Trudeau has nothing to do with it. Lot of nonsense in what you wrote above. Try firing a servant? Seen it done. Oh, of course the PMO doesn't fire them! The DM has a word with the people above them and makes the PMOs wishes known. The offender finds their job eliminated. If they're senior, it gets removed in a reorg, if not, the responsibilities get transferred to others. They get pushed into doing a long, pointless 'study' which will require periodic reports be made. And managers and above have no union, btw. There are a hundred ways to fire or persuade an employee to quit. Deputy ministers don't have to override NCC decisions. Those on the NCC board are government appointees. They are informed privately that their hopes of being reappointed or getting any other appointment with the party EVER will disappear if they don't do as they're told. As for procedure and policy. Those are written by bureaucrats and can always be overridden by politicians. if there are actual laws involved, well, there are almost always ways around that. Or the law can simply be altered. Harper never gave the go-ahead for substantial renovations. Neither did Chretien. And Trudeau has been hiding behind his sofa wringing his hands and biting his nails for eight years terrified someone will insist he make a decision. Edited September 3, 2023 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 3, 2023 Report Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, I am Groot said: Lot of nonsense in what you wrote above. Try firing a servant? Seen it done. Oh, of course the PMO doesn't fire them! The DM has a word with the people above them and makes the PMOs wishes known. The offender finds their job eliminated. If they're senior, it gets removed in a reorg, if not, the responsibilities get transferred to others. They get pushed into doing a long, pointless 'study' which will require periodic reports be made. And managers and above have no union, btw. There are a hundred ways to fire or persuade an employee to quit. Deputy ministers don't have to override NCC decisions. Those on the NCC board are government appointees. They are informed privately that their hopes of being reappointed or getting any other appointment with the party EVER will disappear if they don't do as they're told. As for procedure and policy. Those are written by bureaucrats and can always be overridden by politicians. if there are actual laws involved, well, there are almost always ways around that. Or the law can simply be altered. Harper never gave the go-ahead for substantial renovations. Neither did Chretien. And Trudeau has been hiding behind his sofa wringing his hands and biting his nails for eight years terrified someone will insist he make a decision. Groot, been in Ottawa as a Military member and public servant to know exactly what I am saying. You live in some kind of imaginary public service land if you think PS folks are just fired and shuffled on a political whim. You are trying to blame Trudeau for the 24 Sussex issue and you are way of course.....period. He has nothing to do with it. Also, you seem to know little and are not interested in knowing anything about the NCC and it's power, so be it, remain ignorant. NCC board members, they are appointed for a 2 year term and may be elected for an additional 2 year term and they they are out. It is not a position for life LOL. Geez Groot, even you can apply to be on the board (as they are not politically appointed). You should, you may actually learn what is actually going on and what it is all about LOL Are you really aware of how policy and procedure are enacted?? Parliamentarians pass bills and acts and then the public service proceeds with them. No public servant ever made a rule, regulation or law. I have told you all along, PM's, for decades, (including Mulroney, Trudeau Sr, Chretien and Harper) have done nothing to fix 24 Sussex. Trudeau was at least smart and Trudeau would not even move in. Finally you got that through your thick head LOL He has no control or power over what goes on on NCC land or heritage properties. Edited September 3, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 5 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Groot, been in Ottawa as a Military member and public servant to know exactly what I am saying. You live in some kind of imaginary public service land if you think PS folks are just fired and shuffled on a political whim. You are trying to blame Trudeau for the 24 Sussex issue and you are way of course.....period. He has nothing to do with it. Also, you seem to know little and are not interested in knowing anything about the NCC and it's power, so be it, remain ignorant. NCC board members, they are appointed for a 2 year term and may be elected for an additional 2 year term and they they are out. It is not a position for life LOL. Geez Groot, even you can apply to be on the board (as they are not politically appointed). You should, you may actually learn what is actually going on and what it is all about LOL Are you really aware of how policy and procedure are enacted?? Parliamentarians pass bills and acts and then the public service proceeds with them. No public servant ever made a rule, regulation or law. I have told you all along, PM's, for decades, (including Mulroney, Trudeau Sr, Chretien and Harper) have done nothing to fix 24 Sussex. Trudeau was at least smart and Trudeau would not even move in. Finally you got that through your thick head LOL He has no control or power over what goes on on NCC land or heritage properties. I think you live in another Ottawa from the one I've lived in for so many decades. And I don't know what kind of 'crown projects' you've been involved in, but I worked as a public servant for a lot of years, and still have a lot of friends there, one of whom is a senior director and another who works in the office of an assistant deputy minister. Your view of how the government and public service interact is straight from a manual. But it ignores human reality. The primary motivation of almost all senior management is to curry favour and please the next two levels above them. And they will do damn near anything to do that. If someone displeases the PMO, never mind the PM, their career is dead. Even at the deputy minister rank. You can find yourself moved to some crappy little department nobody wants anything to do with and left to rust. So you can be sure if the PMO makes its wishes known, they're carried out. Yes, indeed, the NCC directors are appointed by the governor in council, which essentially means cabinet. If you think the process is non-partisan you probably think the process to appoint senators is non-partisan too. Public servants make policies all the time, and develop processes for carrying out a wide variety of organizational objectives. They also make rules too. Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, I am Groot said: I think you live in another Ottawa from the one I've lived in for so many decades. And I don't know what kind of 'crown projects' you've been involved in, but I worked as a public servant for a lot of years, and still have a lot of friends there, one of whom is a senior director and another who works in the office of an assistant deputy minister. Your view of how the government and public service interact is straight from a manual. But it ignores human reality. The primary motivation of almost all senior management is to curry favour and please the next two levels above them. And they will do damn near anything to do that. If someone displeases the PMO, never mind the PM, their career is dead. Even at the deputy minister rank. You can find yourself moved to some crappy little department nobody wants anything to do with and left to rust. So you can be sure if the PMO makes its wishes known, they're carried out. Yes, indeed, the NCC directors are appointed by the governor in council, which essentially means cabinet. If you think the process is non-partisan you probably think the process to appoint senators is non-partisan too. Public servants make policies all the time, and develop processes for carrying out a wide variety of organizational objectives. They also make rules too. I have also lived here for decades with and in the public service. You must have been a minion with coloured glasses. My view is from having worked there at a high level. Do the PS try to comply with wishes and desires, yes, if within the present rules. Do the politicians always get their wishes? No, not as often as they want. Does it create issues, yes but there would be never be a situation where rules were bent to appease a politician. There is no politician or high level manager or public servant that would put their name to such a document. The human reality is if you get an indeterminate position within the public service, unless you commit murder on the job, you are there for life LOL (or are a CRA employee that took CERB payments) Public servant never ever make policy or rules, they enact them after legislation has passed. The acts or bills or legislation has the changes (and even wording) to the rules within them. The PS just incorporates those into the manuals. If there is a conflict or contradiction between the new legislation and existi9ng, then the new is not enacted until that conflict is resolved. That happens on occasion and the new legislation is delayed , recalled or cancelled. Case in point is this new law that requires social media giants to pay for news links...it was passed early in the year by parliament and the senate but it has not yet been enacted because there are conflicts and contradictions. Back to topic, fact is Justin Trudeau has nothing to do with the state of 24 Sussex in renovations or demolition. He could not care less and whatever happens is no concern of his. Will he make a public announcement of what will happen? Of course, that is the PR he and all politicians desire. LOL Edited September 4, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
Army Guy Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 On 9/1/2023 at 6:56 PM, ExFlyer said: As you know, the house has been a money pit and in desperate condition for decades. JT does not own it. No PM owns it. It belongs to, ready for it, the NCC, the National Capital Commission, which is you, with members for every province. They have not made decisions. As you say "You don't get a free pass because the last PM did not fix it.." and that include every PM since the 50's. If you are going to judge, then you need to judge every PM since the 50's. Fact is a bureaucracy has let this house become shambles. A bureaucracy that every PM has had to deal with. The same NCC that want to shut down Wellington Street in Ottawa. The same bureaucracy that shut down the Queen Eizabeth parkway to cars so local residents cannot get home but the few bicycles on sundys can ride on it. Bottom line is JT cannot do anything abut it just as previous PMS could not do anything about it. Don't make this a liberal political thing, it is a Canadian NCC problem. Oh and, I live in Ottawa and think the NCC is a waste of office space. Lots of people (political appointees) making lots of money but not doing a damn thing. Im pretty sure most Canadians know that the PM does not own the house,but the home is held in reserve for the appointment of PM... The home is owned by the federal government, which is managed by The national Capital commission, which works for READy FOR IT, the minister responsible for National Capital Act. Now perhaps I'm wrong here, but this Minister that the NCC comes under works directly for the PM, PM and Parliament receive reports from the NCC on all activates ...now that we established the chain of command. If the PM wanted something to happen on this file he picks up the phone or summons the minister and asks that shit gets done....someone drafts up a work request, bla bla bla...house gets fixed... now after 12 plus years and still no action on the home...then there is something wrong with this department...either it is does not know how the chain of command works... or it has dismissed this project, in both cases there someone needs to have a discussion with the NCC and all of it chain of command.... Meaning that the PM is at the top of the chain of command, like any other federal department, The PM can direct, order , what ever you want to any of these departments under him...unless of course your suggesting that this one department is above the established chain of command... Quote The National Capital Commission is a federal Crown corporation created by Canada’s Parliament in 1959 under the National Capital Act. Its predecessors were the Federal District Commission, created in 1927, and the Ottawa Improvement Commission, created in 1899. The NCC is subject to the accountability regime set out in Part X of the Financial Administration Act. It reports to Parliament through the minister designated as minister responsible for the National Capital Act. About Us - National Capital Commission (ncc-ccn.gc.ca) Is that what this pissing contest is about i did not specifically address every PM that may or may not have had a hand in the state of the PM official residence...Harper the last resident lived in the home, Whom according to the media tried to have the home repaired, but it would require extensive repairs....Justin decided he would live else where...the home under Justins watch (8 plus years) is no longer safe for people....not sure why we need to list out all the PM's dating back to when the home was first built...But for augment sake lets list them, and wag fingers at them... Bottom line is the NCC works for the PM, just like any other government department...and if they are coloring outside the lines then it is the elected government that needs to reign them in... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
I am Groot Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: You must have been a minion with coloured glasses. It looks to me like you're the one with the rose-coloured glasses. 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Do the PS try to comply with wishes and desires, yes, if within the present rules. Do the politicians always get their wishes? No, not as often as they want. Agreed. But we're not talking about the minister's office or even the minister. We're talking about the PM 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Does it create issues, yes but there would be never be a situation where rules were bent to appease a politician. There is no politician or high level manager or public servant that would put their name to such a document. I laughed out loud upon reading this. The first thing that comes to mind was when I was leaning over my boss's shoulder while we tried to figure out a way to justify hiring a tall, cute blonde to be a director's admin (she was a temp) as a direct hire (without competition). We were spitballing specific and difficult to find 'skills' that we could include on the form. You can imagine how some of the suggestions went. We actually did that twice, another time for a DG. Oh, and another cute girl the DG wanted to hire through a competition (English essential, bilingual imperative). The only problem was the position we needed to put her into was bilingual imperative. She thought she was bilingual but failed the bilingual testing. So we hired her for another position temporarily and assigned a couple of bilingual staff members to tutor her for weeks on end. She passed and was hired and transferred to the job where we wanted her Then, in another job, there were all the March purchases we needed to creatively justify to use up some of the surplus in the budget. That included creative descriptions of some items to fit within policy. Let's not even get into the 'team building exercises' we held in pool halls and bars. In several of the positions I was in we had several occasions to be creative about how to fit things into policy. The watchword was 'whatever the DG wants, the DG gets', or in another one "Whatever the assistant commissioner wants, the assistant commissioner gets'. Don't tell me that doesn't apply to the prime minister. 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: The human reality is if you get an indeterminate position within the public service, unless you commit murder on the job, you are there for life LOL (or are a CRA employee that took CERB payments) Right. You just take everyone who reports to him away and put him on a 'project' by himself, like the senior manager who couldn't stop ogling the younger female staff members and making inappropriate comments. Or the senior director who screwed everything up but couldn't be persuaded to retire. He wound up on a 'project' too. And the best way for a CRA employee to get fired is to get caught nosing around their own tax file, or that of family members. 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Public servant never ever make policy or rules, they enact them after legislation has passed. I think you and I are speaking about different things, here. Every large organization implements rules and policy for their staff to follow. It doesn't require legislation. HR rules themselves have only become more complex and arcane over the years. As have purchasing rules. Now a purchasing regulation based on legislation is something like section 34 of the Financial Administration Act. A purchasing policy rule is something like "You can no longer purchase computer equipment on your government credit card but most do so with a purchase order'. That requires no input from politicians nor the enactment of new laws. 8 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Back to topic, fact is Justin Trudeau has nothing to do with the state of 24 Sussex in renovations or demolition. He could not care less and whatever happens is no concern of his. Will he make a public announcement of what will happen? Of course, that is the PR he and all politicians desire. LOL Okay, back to the topic. The decision about making expensive renovations to 24 Sussex has always been solely up to the prime minister. That's why so many of them refused to okay them out of fear they'd be criticized by the opposition for spending big money on their own 'home'. The NCC has been waiting on a decision from the PM for eight years now and will take no action until it gets that permission. Edited September 4, 2023 by I am Groot Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, I am Groot said: It looks to me like you're the one with the rose-coloured glasses. Agreed. But we're not talking about the minister's office or even the minister. We're talking about the PM I laughed out loud upon reading this. T..... Then, i...... Right. Y..... I think you and I are speaking about different things,...... Okay, back to the topic. The decision about making expensive renovations to 24 Sussex has always been solely up to the prime minister. That's why so many of them refused to okay them out of fear they'd be criticized by the opposition for spending big money on their own 'home'. The NCC has been waiting on a decision from the PM for eight years now and will take no action until it gets that permission. I am done with you groot. You have no clue and with every post, it becomes more and more obvious. The PM has as much say in the renovations of Sussex as he does about any heritage building, road or park under the jurisdiction of the NCC...None LOL You give the PM far more power than he really has. He is not a dictator. Your imafgination has run rampant and if you and your boss colluded in anything, well, be lucky you were not caught and are an example of a bad public servant. Go back and live in your mushroom farm LOL Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
ExFlyer Posted September 4, 2023 Report Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Im pretty sure most Canadians know that the PM does not own the house,but the home is held in reserve for the appointment of PM... The home is owned by the federal government, which is managed by The national Capital commission, which works for READy FOR IT, the minister responsible for National Capital Act. Now perhaps I'm wrong here, but this Minister that the NCC comes under works directly for the PM, PM and Parliament receive reports from the NCC on all activates ...now that we established the chain of command. If the PM wanted something to happen on this file he picks up the phone or summons the minister and asks that shit gets done....someone drafts up a work request, bla bla bla...house gets fixed... now after 12 plus years and still no action on the home...then there is something wrong with this department...either it is does not know how the chain of command works... or it has dismissed this project, in both cases there someone needs to have a discussion with the NCC and all of it chain of command.... Meaning that the PM is at the top of the chain of command, like any other federal department, The PM can direct, order , what ever you want to any of these departments under him...unless of course your suggesting that this one department is above the established chain of command... About Us - National Capital Commission (ncc-ccn.gc.ca) Is that what this pissing contest is about i did not specifically address every PM that may or may not have had a hand in the state of the PM official residence...Harper the last resident lived in the home, Whom according to the media tried to have the home repaired, but it would require extensive repairs....Justin decided he would live else where...the home under Justins watch (8 plus years) is no longer safe for people....not sure why we need to list out all the PM's dating back to when the home was first built...But for augment sake lets list them, and wag fingers at them... Bottom line is the NCC works for the PM, just like any other government department...and if they are coloring outside the lines then it is the elected government that needs to reign them in... Point in the very beginning was and is, all PMs have had an opportunity to do something with 24 Sussex and none did. Trudeau took the ultimate step and would not move in. Since 2015, 24 Sussex has sat empty and rotted away and Trudeau could not care less. He has not and will only discuss with NCC if they come to him with something of a plan. Then he will let that plan run it's course. Heritage buildings live under different rules than other buildings. https://www.historicplaces.ca/en/pages/standards-normes.aspx No one is colouring outside any lines. The PM does not care and NCC has to come up with some sort of plan and they have not....ever. The interesting thing is some folks seem to think the PM is some sort of uber lord and he snaps his finger and it will be done. That is a fantasy. he has rules and regs to flow and cannot bypass them. https://archive.nationaltrustcanada.ca/issues-campaigns/legal-protection/federal Edited September 4, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 22 hours ago, ExFlyer said: I am done with you groot. I understand. It's probably hard on you to keep pretending you know anything about how the government works. It's probably hurting your head. Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
I am Groot Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 22 hours ago, ExFlyer said: Point in the very beginning was and is, all PMs have had an opportunity to do something with 24 Sussex and none did. But... but wait! You've been insisting for days now that PMs have absolutely zero power over what happens at 24 Sussex! 22 hours ago, ExFlyer said: some folks seem to think the PM is some sort of uber lord and he snaps his finger and it will be done. That is a fantasy. he has rules and regs to flow and cannot bypass them. How silly people must be to think that a PM whose party appoints and reappoints all the directors on the NCC every few years has no power over the NCC. Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: But... but wait! You've been insisting for days now that PMs have absolutely zero power over what happens at 24 Sussex! How silly people must be to think that a PM whose party appoints and reappoints all the directors on the NCC every few years has no power over the NCC. Carrying on with me now is pointless. I know what I know and you may not so, have a great day Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
eyeball Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 On 9/4/2023 at 2:12 PM, I am Groot said: Okay, back to the topic. The decision about making expensive renovations to 24 Sussex has always been solely up to the prime minister. That's why so many of them refused to okay them out of fear they'd be criticized by the opposition for spending big money on their own 'home'. The NCC has been waiting on a decision from the PM for eight years now and will take no action until it gets that permission. Maybe this decision could be left to a committee of prospective upcoming tenants instead of the current occupant. Kind of like a notice of renoviction or something. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 On 9/4/2023 at 6:28 PM, ExFlyer said: Point in the very beginning was and is, all PMs have had an opportunity to do something with 24 Sussex and none did. Trudeau took the ultimate step and would not move in. Since 2015, 24 Sussex has sat empty and rotted away and Trudeau could not care less. He has not and will only discuss with NCC if they come to him with something of a plan. Then he will let that plan run it's course. Heritage buildings live under different rules than other buildings. https://www.historicplaces.ca/en/pages/standards-normes.aspx No one is colouring outside any lines. The PM does not care and NCC has to come up with some sort of plan and they have not....ever. The interesting thing is some folks seem to think the PM is some sort of uber lord and he snaps his finger and it will be done. That is a fantasy. he has rules and regs to flow and cannot bypass them. https://archive.nationaltrustcanada.ca/issues-campaigns/legal-protection/federal My point is that this issue along with every issue in this nation that comes under federal jurisdiction comes under the PM preview...There is a minister that over sees this entire NCC, and if it is not being productive then that is the ministers fault...failure to do anything would need "someone in the federal government to take action" be it to fire or change how things work... Justin refusal did put this issue front and center, but 8 years later this is "still an issue"...and his ministers have not taken this matter serious, i get it it is not on his priority list, nor is it on the NDP list...But this is the PM's issue to address as he is still in power...Regardless of who has failed on this file, Justin owns it right now, can't point the fingers at anyone else, anyone else is not sitting in the PM's chair... Your source describes in detail what action is needed to get things corrected... And from what we have seen in parliament already most MP's are willing to take action from all political parties.. The National Trust for Canada believes the federal government must lead by example and introduce legislation that provides statutory protection and maintenance standards for federally owned and regulated historic places. There is no binding legislation to protect the over 1,300 heritage buildings owned by the federal government. Canada is the only G-8 country without laws to protect historic places owned by its national government. Federal legislation exists only to protect two types of heritage property: railway stations and lighthouses. Yes the PM has a set of rules that he and his government must follow, sort of they are very adapt at breaking those rules and getting away with it...That being said Justine does have 100 % control over all his ministers and has given them direction on how to operate... The last time i checked Justin has the power to introduce legislation, that will give NCC a set of SOP for maintenance and protection standards...and given there are really no rules set our today, there is no stopping the government from ordering the building razed to the ground and a new one built...Every governmental department has rules on this very issue, for federally owned buildings, detailed maintenance standards, and disposal instructions are kept by every federal department... except for this NCC organization, another red flag for this organization that has failed at every corner... you can't tell readers that it is a fantasy that Canada's PM has no power and some obscure department like the NCC does not come under any influence of the PM is poppy co*k. If it has a minister attached to it, which we have established, and that minister is appointed by the PM, then the PM could pick up the phone and get things done, unless there is no phone in the PM office, ... unless you have a source that states that the NCC is the one federal department that controls itself and is insulated from the federal government. This is all about public perception, no one political party wants to have the issue with spending tax payers money on this repair or fix...thats the real problem, it is not that Justin does not have the power to make things happen, he just does not want to, as his Public perception is not good at the moment... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Army Guy said: My point is that this issue along with every issue in this nation that comes under federal jurisdiction comes under the PM preview........ Look, the number of people including you, that are trying to make the state of 24 Sussex an issue specifically to Trudeau is crap. Every PM in the past 3 decades at least have had an opportunity to make it right and livable and they all chose not to. Trudeau is the only one that decided not to even live in a rats nest Could he have done something? For sure, but so could all the previous tenants and they did nothing as well. They all share the blame, if blame is what some of you are trying to pin someone on. They all had the same powers and authorities as Trudeau. I am not goign to play political blame games with anyone anymore. Think what you wish and blame who you want but the fact is that the residence is a POS and the NCC will eventually propose something. Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
eyeball Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Army Guy said: This is all about public perception, no one political party wants to have the issue with spending tax payers money on this repair or fix...thats the real problem, it is not that Justin does not have the power to make things happen, he just does not want to, as his Public perception is not good at the moment... The public/opposition/media is to conditioned and primed to explode. It starts and ends badly for anyone who touches it. The best thing that could happen is the place just burned to the ground. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted September 5, 2023 Report Posted September 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Look, the number of people including you, that are trying to make the state of 24 Sussex an issue specifically to Trudeau is crap. Every PM in the past 3 decades at least have had an opportunity to make it right and livable and they all chose not to. Trudeau is the only one that decided not to even live in a rats nest Could he have done something? For sure, but so could all the previous tenants and they did nothing as well. They all share the blame, if blame is what some of you are trying to pin someone on. They all had the same powers and authorities as Trudeau. I am not goign to play political blame games with anyone anymore. Think what you wish and blame who you want but the fact is that the residence is a POS and the NCC will eventually propose something. Maybe those people know what the definition of leadership is, and what comes with that responsibility. Everything that is wrong with this liberal government is and will be Justins fault thats how leadership works....just like anything that he has done that went right he gets the credit.. Doing nothing becasue it was a hard choice or not very popular and thats the way the last 99999999 administrations did it is not leadership period... He has had the last 8 plus years to take the action the NCC advised them to take....8 years, it makes this strictly his problem...to many red flags on this topic just to sweep it under the table with a shrug of the shoulders, it's not Justins fault when everyone done the same thing..... i get it you think 8 years is not enough time or it is alright to pass it on to the next PM becasue that is what everyone has done...That is not leadership, expected of the PM, our nations leader. The only question you have to ask is who is in charge, then he gets all the kudo's but also carries the losses...It is not playing political games, it is reality...Justins cabinet has failed on this issue, nothing new there... Your blind faith in the NCC is optimistic at best, they to don't seem to be very motivated to solve the problem, i mean after 30 years of inaction we are suppose to hold our breaths for 30 more, when it collapses .NCC in fact they are pointing the fingers at the lack of detailed legislation approved by parliament that would solve this issue in a heart beat... Hopefully the Conservatives make it their problem and show the leadership it takes to get stuff done.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
ExFlyer Posted September 6, 2023 Report Posted September 6, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Army Guy said: Maybe those people know what the definition of leadership is, and what comes with that responsibility. Everything that is wrong with this liberal government is and will be Justins fault thats how leadership works....just like anything that he has done that went right he gets the credit.. Doing nothing becasue it was a hard choice or not very popular and thats the way the last 99999999 administrations did it is not leadership period... He has had the last 8 plus years to take the action the NCC advised them to take....8 years, it makes this strictly his problem...to many red flags on this topic just to sweep it under the table with a shrug of the shoulders, it's not Justins fault when everyone done the same thing..... i get it you think 8 years is not enough time or it is alright to pass it on to the next PM becasue that is what everyone has done...That is not leadership, expected of the PM, our nations leader. The only question you have to ask is who is in charge, then he gets all the kudo's but also carries the losses...It is not playing political games, it is reality...Justins cabinet has failed on this issue, nothing new there... Your blind faith in the NCC is optimistic at best, they to don't seem to be very motivated to solve the problem, i mean after 30 years of inaction we are suppose to hold our breaths for 30 more, when it collapses .NCC in fact they are pointing the fingers at the lack of detailed legislation approved by parliament that would solve this issue in a heart beat... Hopefully the Conservatives make it their problem and show the leadership it takes to get stuff done.... I have no faith in the NCC. I live in Ottawa and we have nothing but issues with NCC streets, parks and properties. All I am trying to say is you folks blaming Trudeau of inaction to 24 Sussex is narrow and closed minded. The NCC has not given anyone, now or previously, advice on 24 Sussex They have continually made repairs and maintenance. Under no circumstances has the NCC told anyone to r=completely renovate or whatever. If they would have, they have had the past 3 years to do something and thy have not. All PM's share in the inaction. Mulroney, Harper, Clarke never made 24 Sussex a priority either. PP will not as well. I have lived here in Ottawa for 3 decades and every 5 years or so, the topic of the state of 24 Sussex comes up. It is headlines for a week or 2 then goes away but, all PM's except Trudeau have continued to live in the premises. Even Mike Holmes got into the fray a number of years ago and said he will renovate it (for a fee of course LO). The only one that really made a stink and got some things done was Mrs Chretien. This is not a political party thing, this is a what do we spend on a white elephant thing and no one yesterday or today or tomorrow will want to step in to make it a comfortable place for themselves LOL In my opinion, it will be torn down. Edited September 6, 2023 by ExFlyer Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
I am Groot Posted September 6, 2023 Report Posted September 6, 2023 19 hours ago, eyeball said: Maybe this decision could be left to a committee of prospective upcoming tenants instead of the current occupant. Kind of like a notice of renoviction or something. It should be left to the landlord without regard to the tenant and his wishes. But that's unrealistic in this country. At best, naming a neutral party, perhaps with a couple of appointees from both the government and opposition would take it out of the political arena. Quote "A civilization is not destroyed by wicked men; it is destroyed by weak men who cannot defend what is good.” — G. K. Chesterton
ExFlyer Posted September 6, 2023 Report Posted September 6, 2023 20 hours ago, eyeball said: Maybe this decision could be left to a committee of prospective upcoming tenants instead of the current occupant. Kind of like a notice of renoviction or something. There is no current occupant. hasn't been for 13 years. Trudeau never mover=d in in 2015. No notice of renoviction required because no one lives there. As I mentioned before, I live her in Ottawa and every 3 to 5 years there is some crap in the news about how bad the house is and what should be done with it. The kerfuffle will go away till next news cycle Quote You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me what mine should be.
BeaverFever Posted September 8, 2023 Author Report Posted September 8, 2023 Opinion: The future of 24 Sussex Drive should be based on facts, not fiction A construction worker walks past the front entrance to 24 Sussex Drive in Ottawa on May 29.Sean Kilpatrick/The Canadian Press Sheila Copps is a former deputy prime minister and former minister of the environment and climate change. Ken Grafton is a Quebec-based writer and director of Historic Ottawa Development Inc. A trial balloon floated last week in Ottawa has everyone talking. It was an anonymous leak, first reported by the CBC, of the government’s intention to drop 24 Sussex Drive as the prime minister’s official residence in favour of constructing a shinier, more secure new build at a different site in Ottawa. Unnamed sources suggested the new building would be larger and have upgraded security, in order to permit the prime minister to host major events, including state dinners, without fear of air, sea or land attack. The idea of building a new prime ministerial residence really started to pick up steam in 2021, when a report from the National Capital Commission estimated it would take almost $37-million to restore the rodent-infested premises at 24 Sussex. The home has now been vacant for almost a decade and is said to require major security updates, according to the CBC’s sources. But the estimate of $36.64-million, as quoted in the 2021 NCC report, simply does not pass muster. How could it possibly cost this much to renovate an 11,000-square-foot house? We decided to dig a bit deeper to find some clarity on the matter, and the result is, well, murky at best. I’m putting in an offer for 24 Sussex. You’re welcome, Canada In its 2021 report, the NCC attributed much of its 24 Sussex renovation estimate to “deferred maintenance” costs, a term that refers to the restoration work required when a property has been left to rot. To arrive at this number, the NCC referred to its “2018 Asset Portfolio Condition Report,” which stated that its cost estimates include “site overhead and profit,” a 30-per-cent “allowance for soft costs,” a 15-per-cent “construction contingency,” and a 25-per-cent additional, seemingly general “contingency” item. So, 70 per cent of that huge, $37-million number is based on contingencies and soft costs. From an architectural perspective, it’s simply not a real number. The 2021 NCC study indicates that “costs were validated by Turner & Townsend,” a Canadian infrastructure consultancy firm. Through an Access to Information request, we were able to obtain a January, 2017, report that Turner & Townsend submitted to the NCC, entitled “Final Report: Cost Assurance and Benchmarking Exercise, 24 Sussex Drive.” The NCC had asked the firm to take a look at previous cost estimates for renovating the prime minister’s residence, which sat at $10-million in 2008. Turner & Townsend found this estimate to be “reasonable and based on a sound and best practice approach to developing cost estimates.” The question is, how did the cost jump from $10-million to $37-million between 2008 and 2021? Even with deferred maintenance, which can cause costs to soar (the longer a building dilapidates, the worse its condition becomes) we still don’t have clarity from the NCC on why the cost has skyrocketed, what “contingencies” they are apparently planning for, and how much those individual costs are estimated to be. Without this clarity, how can we say that it makes more sense to build an entirely new prime ministerial residence, instead of renovating the original? Similar holes exist in the security argument for moving from 24 Sussex. The prime minister’s home and the Governor-General’s residence at Rideau Hall are around the corner from one another and currently occupy the same security footprint. The addition of another residence in a different location would likely increase security costs. Desiring a new build with more room for state dinners also ignores the fact there is already a huge entertainment space at Rideau Hall. The proposed scenario would also likely have taxpayers picking up the bill for two properties, one a new build and the other a renovation to prepare 24 Sussex for sale or another use. The idea of a new building also runs roughshod over the fact that the prime minister’s residence is designated by an act of Parliament and enjoys the highest level of heritage building classification. Multiple levels of government review would be required to build a new one – meanwhile, 24 Sussex would continue to degrade. Not to mention, any demolition or tree removal involved at a new-build site would have a far higher carbon footprint than the known environmental benefits of restoration. It would be difficult to make the argument that this project is fostering sustainability during a climate crisis. Any decision as to the future of Canada’s prime ministerial residence should be based on real security concerns and sound financial information. The future of 24 Sussex Drive should be based on facts, not fiction. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-future-of-24-sussex-drive-should-be-based-on-facts-not-fiction/ 1 Quote
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