How Canadians are being screwed by foreign workers

[eyeball]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

That has always been the case:    Eagle vs. Blue Heron

Sometimes.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

 

Tal argued Canada’s mass immigration targets are helping ease our country’s labour shortage, which in turn is tamping down wage growth.

He made no case for it at all, and of course our employment numbers show that the labour shortage is still there.

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

What makes it all the more unsettling is that the corporate-backed organizations pushing Ottawa to hike immigration targets, such as The Century Initiative and the Conference Board of Canada, have acknowledged that higher immigration leads to lower GDP per capita.

Not exactly. if you bring in more 'capita' then initially, sure. But not over the longer term. What happens is that you have a slightly lower gdp per capita but higher gdp growth.  And that's still a positive.  If i have 1 person making 10 dollars worth of profit and then it changes to 2 people making 18 dollars worth of profit, profit (gdp) per person went down but i still made more profit.

So there's not really anything wrong with that. And it doesn't drag wages down.

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Evidence? Studies? Cite?

Are you kidding - YOU who has provided ZERO to back up his claims asks for a cite? Look it up yourself - right after you get done looking up something to back your own position.

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And one of the major reasons is that rather than increasing training or technology employers can just bring in temporary foreign workers or hire from a continuing stream of desperate immigrants.

Don't spout nonsense. If anything new arrivals need more specialized training to fit in. Mentor programs and the like. Which is a main reason they're worth less.  The WORST way to improve productivity for the employer is to throw expensive labour at it and even allowing for a discount for new Canadians they're still very expensive. No employer would look at that as a good substitute for productivity.

Immigration has absolutely zero to do with our productivity problems. And the fact you would suggest that demonstrates you aren't thinking about this rationally, you just don't like immigration and you're trying to come up with any reason at all to demonize it.

And there are studies that show immigration doesn't affect the wages Canadians make. Hell, David Card won a nobel prize proving that.

Sorry - you're so far off base here it's not even funny.

 

 

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

He made no case for it at all, and of course our employment numbers show that the labour shortage is still there.

Our employment numbers say absolutely zero about wage growth. And our labour shortage is, except in certain key areas, rarely an issue, or as Mikal Skuterud put it more succinctly

Canada’s worker ‘shortage’ is an illusion, and bringing in cheap labour doesn’t help.

Canada’s current tight labour markets overwhelmingly reflect increases in the demand for workers, not a decline in their numbers. And the solution is not to satiate that demand with cheap labour, which undermines labour productivity and average economic living standards in the population.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-canada-labour-shortage-demand-supply/

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Not exactly. if you bring in more 'capita' then initially, sure. But not over the longer term. What happens is that you have a slightly lower gdp per capita but higher gdp growth.  And that's still a positive.  If i have 1 person making 10 dollars worth of profit and then it changes to 2 people making 18 dollars worth of profit, profit (gdp) per person went down but i still made more profit.

If by that last line you mean employers made more profit then sure. But everyone else got poorer.

When Mulroney took office immigration was around 86k a year. It's up to 500k a year now. And during that time of constantly escalating immigration, we've had stagnant wages and low productivity increases. We don't need an economic study to determine that massively increasing immigration doesn't improve GDP per person. We just have to look at our own recent history.

Second, your example of 1 person making 10 vs 2 making 18 being somehow better is bass ackwards. It means productivity per person falls. Oh, we're making a lot more shit? Well so does India, and half the country have no toilets. Is that your ambition for Canada? That we turn into India?

Or on productivity, as Don Wright put it.

“But when businesses complain about having difficulty finding enough workers, what this really means is that they cannot easily find the workers they want at a wage they want to pay,” Wright says.

“But, within reasonable limits, this is a good thing. It forces employers to pay higher wages, provides better working conditions and drives the creative destruction that leads to higher productivity, more valuable products and better business models.”

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Are you kidding - YOU who has provided ZERO to back up his claims asks for a cite? Look it up yourself - right after you get done looking up something to back your own position.

We're actually talking about the cites I provided, dumbass. 

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Don't spout nonsense. If anything new arrivals need more specialized training to fit in. Mentor programs and the like.

How many mentor programs do you think you need to work at Starbucks or Tim Hortons? How many mentor programs do you need to work in a fish or meat processing plant? One of the big problems with Canada's lack of productivity is that employers don't provide any of that. They don't want to. Even in the tech industry they want a guy who's already been coding in a given language for some years and they want him cheap. They're not going to spend money on mentoring or training. They also like the fact newcomers from the developing world expect to work their asses off without complaining.

 

 

[CdnFox]

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Our employment numbers say absolutely zero about wage growth. And our labour shortage is, except in certain key areas, rarely an issue, or as Mikal Skuterud put it more succinctly

if your whole premise is that filling jobs with cheap labour drives the prices of labour down ... and the jobs AREN'T FILLED as the employment numbers show..  then you've got a problem with your theory.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Canada’s worker ‘shortage’ is an illusion, and bringing in cheap labour doesn’t help.

Doesn't hurt either as it turns out.  But - he can always show his math and make a case. But he didnt.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 

Canada’s current tight labour markets overwhelmingly reflect increases in the demand for workers, not a decline in their numbers. And the solution is not to satiate that demand with cheap labour, which undermines labour productivity and average economic living standards in the population

Nice story - show that this is what's happening. He doesn't. And i know the research doesn't support that so i know why he doesn't.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

If by that last line you mean employers made more profit then sure. But everyone else got poorer.

But they don't in fact. Show me where what i posted suggests that.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

When Mulroney took office immigration was around 86k a year. It's up to 500k a year now. And during that time of constantly escalating immigration, we've had stagnant wages and low productivity increases.

No, wages have grown about 1 percent more than inflation across most industries. The only reason it hasn't grown more is productivity but as we already discussed - PRODUCTIVITY IS NOT AN IMMIGRATION ISSUE.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

We don't need an economic study to determine that massively increasing immigration doesn't improve GDP per person. We just have to look at our own recent history.

Already discussed. And you've made no case that gdp changes is the direct result of immigration - just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean one is the cause of another. You have to make that direct connection and show it.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Second, your example of 1 person making 10 vs 2 making 18 being somehow better is bass ackwards. It means productivity per person falls.

No, it doesn't provide ANY information about productivity in the slightest. Workers are not paid based on productivity alone. A new canadian who is just as productive as a natural canadian will still get paid less for several reasons for a significant time after they arrive.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Oh, we're making a lot more shit? Well so does India, and half the country have no toilets. Is that your ambition for Canada? That we turn into India?

Do i need to explain why that's dumb? I'm sure you've thought about it since you wrote it and realize why.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Or on productivity, as Don Wright put it.

“But when businesses complain about having difficulty finding enough workers, what this really means is that they cannot easily find the workers they want at a wage they want to pay,” Wright says.

“But, within reasonable limits, this is a good thing. It forces employers to pay higher wages, provides better working conditions and drives the creative destruction that leads to higher productivity, more valuable products and better business models.”

Well they've had difficulty finding workers for 3 years and change and it wasn't easy before that.  So...  sounds like it's kind of more theory than reality.  In reality what actually happened is a lot of businesses closed their doors or cut back operations and businesses that weren't profitable were shut down and those who could automate or find ways around labour issues survived.

I've seen a LOT of business who used to provide more services to a wider area cut back on what and where they provide it to focus on core profit areas. It's been a real pain.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

We're actually talking about the cites I provided, dumbass. 

We're talking about how they're irrelevant.  Not sure why you'd be proud of that.

As to 'dumbass' - aww little guy. Don't hate me because you're wrong.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

How many mentor programs do you think you need to work at Starbucks or Tim Hortons?

Quite a few actually. It depends on how well you speak the language, how much challenge your family is having at integrating etc. And there are still cultural differences that a mentor helps overcome. Things that are not done elsewhere but are regular here. If you don t now the differences and warn the person it causes tensions and 'learning experiences'.

But the idea that ALL immigrants start at starbucks is pretty silly. 

Consider for example bc's previous and highly successful immigration deal with Filipino nurses.  Worked amazing but was entirely driven by former filipino 'mentors' working with the nurses here to bring them up to speed on the differences in practice.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

How many mentor programs do you need to work in a fish or meat processing plant?

A fair bit - see the starbucks reply.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

One of the big problems with Canada's lack of productivity is that employers don't provide any of that. They don't want to.

CORRECT!!!! THAT"S WHY  THEY DON"T REALLY WANT IMMIGRANTS. The only reason they take immigrants is because they HAVE to and they pay more to attract natural canadians.

54 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Even in the tech industry they want a guy who's already been coding in a given language for some years and they want him cheap. They're not going to spend money on mentoring or training. They also like the fact newcomers from the developing world expect to work their asses off without complaining.

THey don't like it at all. They don't like the cultural issues and frictions, they don't like the language barriers, they don't like their staff isolating into groups, they don't like the problems integrating them into work teams, they don't like that they don't have roots in the area that will make it less likely for them to pack up and leave, and they HATE that they don't have a track record they can look at before the hire.

If there were enough naturalized canadians to fill all the jobs, the foreign workers would be screwed and unemployed.

So - not affecting wages.

You haven't provided a single scrap of evidence to suggest that wages are repressed by immigration.

I provided a study by a nobel prize winning economist which proved they dont' using real world data.

 

[BeaverFever]

How Canadians are being screwed by foreign workers
 

From what I’ve heard this is especially true in strip club VIP rooms. Where’s the outrage!!!

[I am Groot]

Another article detailing how the flood of foreigners coming in does little to help Canadians other than impoverishing us.

Leveraging immigration to boost GDP per capita requires attracting the world’s best and brightest to drive innovation, productivity growth and job creation in advanced sectors that are intensive in new technologies, research and development, and STEM skills. That does not seem to be this government’s priority.

The priority of this government appears to be filling existing job slots with workers regardless of the value added of those jobs. The goal is overwhelmingly to support businesses by alleviating the competitive labour market pressures they are facing to increase the wages and productivity of their work forces.

This is evident in the government’s recent decision to reverse regulations introduced by its predecessors in 2014 to curtail business reliance on low-skill temporary foreign workers.

It is also evident in the government’s recent decision to waive all limits on the off-campus work activity of foreign students, whose numbers are exploding and who are heavily engaged in low-wage work.

Most significant, the government is now proposing a reform of its system for selecting candidates for economic-class immigration, known as the “express entry system,” which will target immigrants to fill existing job slots rather than being focused on attracting the world’s top talent.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-using-immigration-to-fill-vacant-lower-skilled-jobs-is-not-sound/

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Leveraging immigration to boost GDP per capita

Just a point of order - they can leverage immigraiton to increase gdp, but immigration actually reduces GDP per capita overall as a rule. Although not as bad as some suggest.