English civil servants getting shafted

[Leafless]

Well it looks like sixty bitter civil servants are alleging " systemic discrimination in the federal workplace denies unilingual employees promotions.

Lise Jolicoeur, a treasury spokesman, had not heard about the complaint but said federal employees have several options for language training.

She said " The government is committed to a bilingual public service, where people can work and be served in the official language of there choice."

Well if I read this correctly this bilingual policy now applies to individual civil servants and has nothing to do with the main objective of 'federal bilingualism' and that is to PROVIDE SERVICES to the general public in either official language.

And if civil servants can work in the language of their choice why the English restrictions for senior level jobs?

In this country francophones have pursued the English language with the reason being for personal 'self gain' concerning jobs in the English job market. There is no personal requirement for English Canadians to pursue the French language as the country is COMMERICIALLY ENGLISH outside of the feds discriminatory implementation concerning bilingualism in the federal public which Quebec does not own.

Why federal authorities would want to belittle majority unilingual English employees to speak French by creating an artifical bilingual linguistic work enviroment and to deny senior level jobs I think does infringe on constitutional Rights mainly -Equality Rights.

I don't think the federal civil service has to be bilingual at all as bilingual concerns concerning serving the public in French or providing a French workplace enviroment can be carried out from a few federal offices in Quebec.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2005/...pf-1296445.html

[Argus]

Well it looks like sixty bitter civil servants are alleging " systemic discrimination in the federal workplace denies unilingual employees promotions.

Lise Jolicoeur, a treasury spokesman, had not heard about the complaint but said federal employees have several options for language training.

She said " The government is committed to a bilingual public service, where people can work and be served in the official language of there choice."

Well if I read this correctly this bilingual policy now applies to individual civil servants and has nothing to do with the main objective of 'federal bilingualism' and that is to PROVIDE SERVICES to the general public in either official language.

And if civil servants can work in the language of their choice why the English restrictions for senior level jobs?

As I have stated on previous occasions, most bilingual requirements have nothing whatsoever to do with serving the public. The big expansion came when they decided that all civil servants have the right "to work in the language of their choice". That meant all those francophones who were specifically hired (over anglophones) because they were bilingual had the absolute right to work in their own language. This meant all the internal service people, from IT support to HR, clerical support, even janitors, had to be bilingual. And, of course, all managers had to be bilingual, even if only a single one of their employees was French - or even if none were. So all senior managers now have to be bilingual, and in the National Capital region, all managers and supervisors have to be bilingual.

What this effectively means is that hiring and promotion is done almost entirely on the basis of language skills. Only a miniscule percentage of anglos are bilingual, so as of the last record I had, 71% of bilingual positions went to Francophones. Of course, that was when there was more training and the rules allowed you to win a job through competence, and then get the training. You can't do either now. So the numbers have unquestonably risen, and will continue to rise. My best estimate is that within 10-15 years as the largely English boomers retire, more than 90% of all senior civil servants will be Francophones.

[Leafless]

Argus

You wrote- " My best estimate is that within 10-15 years as the largely English boomers retire more than 90% of all senior civil servants will be francophone."

I am still a Canadian but have denounced my Canadian citizenship privately because of the situation in the federal civil service.

Canada has become a Liberilized socialist Cuba with NO democratic political direction or leadership.

The Liberal federal government and even the Coservative one led by Quebec's Brian Mulroney has shamed Canadians by alowing mainly a separatist province represented by francophones to overun our Canadian federal government and destroy freedoms dictated by the majority.

This amounts to a reverse win for Quebec on the Plains of Abraham.

If this French stranglehold on fedral government employment is not eliminated I predict Canada will be lost as other Canadian provinces will not tolerate a Quebec takeover of our federal resources.

[Leafless]

Argus

You wrote- " As I have stated on previous occasions, most bilingual positions have nothing to do with serving the public."

And you also wrote- " That meant all of those francophones who were hired over anglophones because they were bilingual had the absoloute right to work in their own language. This meant all the internal service people from IT support to HR, clerical support, even janitors, had to be bilingual. And of course, all managers had to be bilingual, even if only a single one of their employees was French or even if none were. So now all senior managers have to be bilingual and the National Capital Region all managers and supervisors have to be bilingual.

The 'Legal basis' that affirms the equality of both official languages, guaranteeing equal rights and privledges for their use in all federal institutions makes NO mention of the legal requirement for internal service people from IT support to HR, clerical, janitors, managers, senior managers and supervisors have to BILINGUAL.

http://www.hrma-agrh.gc.ca/ollo/common/gov-gouv_e.asp

Quebec is the only province in Canada that is 'officially unilingual'.

A vote for the Liberals is a vote for Quebec 'separatist' in their pursuit to dominate and control Canada with their minority language and political concerns.

[Argus]

The 'Legal basis' that affirms the equality of both official languages, guaranteeing equal rights and privledges for their use in all federal institutions makes NO mention of the legal requirement for internal service people from IT support to HR, clerical, janitors, managers, senior managers and supervisors have to BILINGUAL.

Nevertheless, they do, as part of policy. You don't have to be a genius to realise the affects. But of course, they will say both linguistic groups are being treated equal. Unilingual Francophones have no more chances of success than unilingual Anglophones. The thing is, as the minority, a far higher percentage of Francophones learned to pick up English than the reverse. And they were aided by the overwhelming nature of English (ie, American) culture, learning English through television, radio, the internet, etc. There was no such aid for English youth, who consequently never learned French, at least, not to the level required to pass government tests.

That is why official bilingualism so greatly favours Francophones. And at the higher levels (executive rank) of the civil service, which require absolute fluency, just about the only people who can achieve the required grades are those who grew up in the minority mileau, or at least, who got a good head start, as so many Francophones did, when they were young. Trying to train a middle aged Albertan or BC bureacrat up to the level of fluency needed for senior jobs is damned hard, even if he's willing to commit the time and effort (more than a year of his life, full-time) and the government is willing to pay for it, and his salary during this time.

And increasingly, the government is not willing. Most new employees, both at the clerical and officer rank, are required to be bilingual to even apply, and so, increasingly, most new hires are Francophones.

[Leafless]

Argus

You wrote - " This is why official bilingualism greatly favours Francophones. And at the higher levels (executive rank of the civil service) which require absolute fluency."

Sorry the worst speakers of French in the world are the ones that speak 'Quebecois French or slang French rather than 'Parisian French' and the only reason so many are bilingual is because their own province is unable to create French jobs for them so they catered to the English for jobs forcing them to learn and speak English.

In New Brunswick Canada's only 'official bilingual province' they have a language commissioner.

Federal Language Commissioner Dyane Adam exercises her powers both in Ontario and Quebec especially the NCR to a much lesser extent (it seem the only ones worthy of a linguistic whipping are the English). It seems the NCR anyways only exists for the benefit of Francophone employment as Ottawa is the Capital of Canada and home to the federal government where many English loose jobs to a much smaller Francophone population on the Quebec side who by the way have there own share of federal entites.

But there is one major flaw neither Ontario or Quebec is 'officially bilingual' so I highly question the fact how she can extend her bilingual powers into provinces that are NOT part of the federal governments 'official bilingual policy'.

Officiasl bilingualism is I fully believe extremely dangerous when our federal government caters openly to a province aloof in it's own little world of separatism and cultural fantasies.

Here are the real numbers concerning bilingual positons across Canada.

http://www.ocol-clo.gc.ca/archives/nr_cp/2...005-04-12_e.htm

[Leafless]

Official bilingualism in the federal government is discriminatory as well as useless.

It should be remembered the federal civil service is the potential employer of ALL Canadians in which the majority are English speaking and not a select few from Quebec who just happen to be already bilingual and who take their federal admission language test (when required in English). Actually a minority French applicant should be tested in BOTH official languages as their is no guarantee of proper fluency in either official language as most of the French spoken in Quebec is Quebecois or slang French and not Parisian type French the type the English are trained to learn.

To dictate official bilingualism in a city such as Ottawa, especially in a province that is not officially bilingual reeks of discriminatory federal meddling in area that should be out of bounds to federal bilingual legislation of this nature.

To create a bilingual culture club within the walls of our federal public service is pretty well useless anywhere else in a majority English Canada and creates a tremendous tax burden to accomplish this.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada?2005/11...pf-1305432.html

It appears less tha 4% of the 4,656 students taking part in this $120-million dollar language training effort were learning English.

[Minimus Maximus]

Double post, sorry.

[Minimus Maximus]

I would like to relate an incedent which happened to a good friend of mine a couple of years ago.

My buddy is from Nova Scocia but had moved to Calgary to find work. This guy is fully bilingual and has served his country as a member of the military. During his time in the west his wife filed for a divorce and moved to Ottawa to start a new life, my buddy is a good father and chose to try to find work in Ottawa in order to be close to his daughter. He found out that a position was available for a person with his skills and happened to be a gov't position. He sent off his resume and made sure that the reader (of the resume) understood that he was willing to pay all costs attributed to moving to Ottawa. He got a letter back which stated that applicants from outside of Eastern Ontario or Western Quebec would not be accepted.

A few months ago I came across this article and everything suddenly made perfect sense.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists...07/1204899.html

Our federal gov't discriminates not only based on language, but also discriminates based on postal codes. I've always hated the mantra "the west wants in" but faced with the realities of our anti-western pro-Quebec federal gov't I think I am starting to understand it.

[shoop]

The Feds announced an end to the Ottaw-Hull region postal code discrimination recently. Can't remember when, but it was in the last couple months.

Our federal gov't discriminates not only based on language, but also discriminates based on postal codes. I've always hated the mantra "the west wants in" but faced with the realities of our anti-western pro-Quebec federal gov't I think I am starting to understand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Leafless]

Minimus Maximus

I agree 100% postal code discrimination is totally unacceptable and absolutely ridiculous.

But like shoop I have heard about an end to this type of discrimination but have not heard any or seen any media verification concering the elimination of postal code discrinination.

Iam going to try to confirm if this policy has in fact been eliminated.

[Minimus Maximus]

It seems to me that I have also heard of eliminating this kind of discrimination (postal code), as of yet have not seen proof though. I remember this guy showing me the letter and I was laughing as I believed he was trying to set me up for some kind of punch line, it was no joke. What bothered me the most is that this guy had served his country (ex-military) and yet because of his postal code was not eligable to apply for this particular job.

[Guest eureka]

Perhaps it should be asked what was the reason for the postal code concentration. Was this a temporary requirement for a period of time: perhaps to achieve some sort of balance.

Some years ago, a friend of mine from Vancouver was successful in getting a fairly senior job in Ottawa: one that qualified applicants wre available for in all parts of Canada. I used to travel to Ottawa to see him and others of his circle who were not from any designated postal code.

[Minimus Maximus]

Eureka, You could be right about this pertaining to a temporary shift in which postal codes resumes would be accepted from, however I seriously doubt that any federal department is so full of personel from Alberta postal codes that a temporary ban on these codes would be of benefit on order to create balance. This is somewhat akin to affermative action based on geograghy rather than sex/race/ethnicity.

It may be interesting to find out the concentration of federal employee's based on postal codes to see if there is more to this. Regardless of reasoning why would any Canadian citizen be disqualified from applying for any job within the federal gov't if they are qualified to do so.

[Canuck E Stan]

Is the Government still doing the Postal Code bit? You bet!

Jobs open to the Public

Jobs in your region excludes the rest of Canada....unless they are hard pressed to find anyone in your regiion. E.G. Communications Officer(80 kilometers of Calgary)

[shoop]

Stan,

Kinda think you are missing the point. The argument was that, because of the number of jobs in Ottawa-Hull, these jobs should be open to all Canadians.

That is the change people wanted, and got.

[Canuck E Stan]

Stan,

Kinda think you are missing the point. The argument was that, because of the number of jobs in Ottawa-Hull, these jobs should be open to all Canadians.

That is the change people wanted, and got.

Shoop,

The point I was making is that as a Canadian, ALL government jobs in ALL regions of the country should be open to ALL Canadians,not just in the Ottawa/Hull area.As a Canadian if you are the best qualified candidate and you want to move to another region of the country, the government should consider you for that position.

here's an example,( from JOBS.GC.CA) the government needs a Shellfish Technician in Vancouver-

Who can apply?

Persons who self-identify when applying as a Woman or Visible Minority residing or employed in Vancouver, BC and within a 75 kilometer radius of Vancouver, BC. within Canadian territory, extending to, amongst others, Sidney BC, Brackendale, BC, and Abbotsford, BC.

This position will be staffed through Environment Canada’s Employment Equity Program for Designated Group Members, therefore only persons identifying as Women or Visible Minority can be considered.

For the above position, please note there are two simultaneous posters (Women/Visible Minorities and general public) and the eligibility list will be administered in this same order, i.e. Women/Visible Minorities and general public. You are encouraged to apply to any or both poster(s) for which you are eligible.

Education required

Graduation with a degree from a recognized university with an acceptable specialization in Microbiology, Environmental Sciences or some other science related to the position.

Salary: $48,344 to $58,817 per annum

Just graduated from university on the east coast at the top of your class with loads of experience,and would love to move to Vancouver?

Sorry,being outside the region and possibly not a visible minority, you don't get to even apply for the job.

Ottawa/Hull is only the largest area for government positions.The rest of the country has them too.The government only encourages regionalism with this kind of selective hiring. And as noted by others,do they really get the best value for the position.

[Leafless]

Canuck E Stan

The U.S. with a much larger population base fares better in many area compared to Canada as they have a much larger more qualified skilled workforce to choose from.

Why our federal government ever allowed postal code restrictions to discriminate against potentially better qualified individuals from a much larger area for any given federal positon boggles the mind and indicates our own federal government could be participating in a form of racism.

[Argus]

The Feds announced an end to the Ottaw-Hull region postal code discrimination recently. Can't remember when, but it was in the last couple months.

Our federal gov't discriminates not only based on language, but also discriminates based on postal codes. I've always hated the mantra "the west wants in" but faced with the realities of our anti-western pro-Quebec federal gov't I think I am starting to understand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's real nice, Shoop. Now everyone in BC, Alberta or Newfoundland who is absolutely fluently bilingual in reading, writing and speaking can apply for jobs in Ottawa.

[Leafless]

After checking around a few places concerning the elimination of postal code restrictions the policy appears to stll be in effect with no one I spoke to familiar with the announced elimination of this draconian policy and anyone of higher authority were not available or stepped out for a glass of water or went to the washroom.

Same old crew keeping the population under the mushroom system and that is 'feed em horseshit and keep them in the dark.'

[Leafless]

Argus

You wrote- " Now everyone in BC, Alberta or Newfoundland who is absolutely fluently bilingual in reading, writing and speaking can apply for jobs in Ottawa."

Are you saying French is a more important requirement other than learned skills and qualifications, knowledge, intelligence and competence?

Or are you saying Quebecers ONLY or francophones need apply in a country with a majority English population that conducts it's buisness utilizing the English language in a country that consist of 10 separate provinces.

[kimmy]

I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth, but I think Argus is saying that postal-code discrimination or not, the arbitrary application of language classifications will let managers within the civil service maintain their own private little clique anyway.

-k

[August1991]

I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth, but I think Argus is saying that postal-code discrimination or not, the arbitrary application of language classifications will let managers within the civil service maintain their own private little clique anyway.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have avoided this thread for several reasons but kimmy's posts are seductive.

kimmy points out that language requirements are part of federal staffing politics, and postal codes are just another card on the table. In fact, the permutations are endless.

Any federal public servant can arrange to put anyone on the public teet. They usually choose spouses, partners, offspring, potential horizontal joggers. But sometimes they choose randomly, and postal codes have the patina of determined thought. I'm sure a bureaucrat will argue that postal codes ensure a fair distribution of federal employment opportunities across the country.

Such is the FantasyLand of Ottawa. And the better question is why anyone would waste their life in such nonsense.

I have two answers:

First, many people view life as nothing more than absolute security. Our federal public service is populated by people who just want money deposited every second Wednesday in their bank account. Regardless. For them, that's life. And then they die.

Second, other people love arcane rules and love meetings. Anal retentive, they master the details and wait for the moment to achieve... nothing. After all, the game is with other people's money.

Lifers, talent, and mandarins? No, they all think they're mandarins, or some such.

----

I have avoided this thread because it is painted in the colours of "getting my share of time at the trough". Those French trough out more... We uniligual Anglos are screwed by Trudeau and the Liberals.

So, is that Life? Time at the Trough? What is Time at the Trough, really?

----

To return, IMV, to the main question of this thread, who should assume the cost of transacting a deal? That is, who should assume the costs of dealing in two languages? I would say that whoever can assume this task at least cost should be hired.

IF Icelanders deal with Americans, Icelanders probably speak English - and Icelanders benefit from having two ways of seeing life.

[Leafless]

August1991

You wrote -" We anglo's are screwed by Trudeau and the Liberals."

Your right and also it is absolutely corrupt and unfederalistic to sell out the country to Quebec utilizing the 'Rights and Freedom' Schedule 'B' of our constitution.

You also wrote- " What is time at the trough really?"

Time at the trough incorporating a nationalistic province, which continually dwells on separation fantasies linked to a useless foreign language good basically only for personal use means CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY, thanks again to Mr. 'T'.

This is why I think the only answer to this problem is for Quebec to separate to satisfy their lust for a complete French identity because if they don't it will simply induce other provinces to pursue that route as Canadians do not want French in their lifestyles and their majority English society turned inside out to accomodate a language that basically serves no purpose.

[wellandboy]

Headline:Welland Tribune, November 17,2005:

Francophones Continue Fight Over Registry Office Relocation

Here's an anecdote about bilingualism in this country. In Welland Ont., population 48.000, approx. 12.1% are of French descent with a much smaller portion of unilingual francopones within the community. Last year the Ontario Government closed the Welland Land Registry Office consolidating this function in St. Catherines 20 Km. north as a cost saving measure. French services are provided .

The Welland French community immediately initiated a court challenge under the French Language Services Act stating that the closure violated their rights as Welland is a designated community under the FLSA. The Ontario Divisional Court ruled against the challenge and now the case has gone to appeal.

The closure of this office has inconvenienced about 115,000 people in the Southern Niagara tier, Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Welland and Fort Erie who happen to be mostly anglophones. The bigger issue is we have poorer service and no parking in two official languages in St. Catherines. The Court challenge of course doesn't take that into consideration it simply wants French sevices in Welland restored.

We now have a country that has evolved into bilingual morass of stupidity, where reason or being reasonable has no place.