Global Gulags

[Black Dog]

Link

The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

For the record, the issue is not whether it's okay to hold those suspected of terrorist involvement, but how it's done.

Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.

It is gross hypocrisy for a nation that claims to be a bastion of freedom and liberty to hold individuals indefinitely, to deny them the right to a trial, and subject them to abuse and torture.

The CIA program's original scope was to hide and interrogate the two dozen or so al Qaeda leaders believed to be directly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, or who posed an imminent threat, or had knowledge of the larger al Qaeda network. But as the volume of leads pouring into the CTC from abroad increased, and the capacity of its paramilitary group to seize suspects grew, the CIA began apprehending more people whose intelligence value and links to terrorism were less certain, according to four current and former officials.

The original standard for consigning suspects to the invisible universe was lowered or ignored, they said. "They've got many, many more who don't reach any threshold," one intelligence official said.

[Shakeyhands]

can you say that you are surprised by this news?

[Yodeler]

can you say that you are surprised by this news?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not.

And I bet you that it's not the Americans who are doing the major interrogating. They don't have the stomachs for it.

[Black Dog]

And I bet you that it's not the Americans who are doing the major interrogating. They don't have the stomachs for it.

Yet CIA interrogators in the overseas sites are permitted to use the CIA's approved "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," some of which are prohibited by the U.N. convention and by U.S. military law. They include tactics such as "waterboarding," in which a prisoner is made to believe he or she is drowning.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

It is gross hypocrisy for a nation that claims to be a bastion of freedom and liberty to hold individuals indefinitely, to deny them the right to a trial, and subject them to abuse and torture.

Indeed, many of these 'human rights violations' are exactly the ones used by the US to denounce 'brutal dictatorships' (that they aren't currently using). From Guantanamo Bay recently,

Meanwhile, the Pentagon also announced yesterday that 27 Guantanamo detainees have been on a hunger strike since August. The Pentagon said 24 of those detainees have received forced feedings.

 

The revelation follows an order a week ago by U.S. District Court Judge Gladys Kessler for the release of medical records on detainees who are being force-fed.

 

Judge Kessler said lawyers for detainees have presented "deeply troubling" allegations about U.S. personnel violently shoving feeding tubes through men's noses and into their stomachs without anesthesia or disinfectant.

 

Kessler noted in her order that those allegations are "explicitly, specifically and vigorously denied" by the U.S. government.

 

The New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights estimated that more than 200 of Guantanamo Bay's 500 detainees are taking part in the hunger strike in protest of their living conditions and lack of legal rights.

 

Lawyers for detainees accuse Washington of deliberately under-stating the scope of the hunger strike.

 

Rumsfeld yesterday distanced himself from the decision to force-feed detainees, saying he is not a doctor and only knows about the situation "from a distance."

from...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/lib...102-rferl02.htm

BTW,

And I bet you that it's not the Americans who are doing the major interrogating. They don't have the stomachs for it.

I am sensing that Yodeler is our 'troll de jour'.

[Yodeler]

And I bet you that it's not the Americans who are doing the major interrogating. They don't have the stomachs for it.

I am sensing that Yodeler is our 'troll de jour'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I meant that as a positive trait on the part of the Americans.

[PocketRocket]

Well, I read the entire link, and noticed one glaring fact; no concrete sources were cited for any of the information in the article.

Also, the indefinite "an Eastern European country" descriptive plants further seeds of doubt.

I don't find it hard to believe that there are indeed some shady things happening under the blanket of "security" the CIA enjoys, and probably some of the information in this article is factual, but due to the lack of concrete information given, I have to take it with a grain of salt.

[crazymf]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

I believe the basic charter of human rights can be discarded in circumstances where the enemy does not recognise them, and he is actively engaging in the willful destruction of your society. In other words, if your rules of war aren't working, use his or whatever it takes to defeat him.

It eventually comes down to doing whatever it takes to preserve our society and way of life. As it isn't politically viable or publicly acceptable, it must be done covertly.

A foul tasting pill with the right medicine to cure the illness.

What else can you do when you plead the Geneva Convention and instead they slit your throat?

[Shady]

The real question is who leaked this classified CIA information! This could put people's lives in danger. This is a matter of American national security. We need an investigation. Afterall, classified CIA information is classified CIA information. All leakers should be pursued and prosecuted. I'm sure you all agree.

[Black Dog]

I believe the basic charter of human rights can be discarded in circumstances where the enemy does not recognise them, and he is actively engaging in the willful destruction of your society. In other words, if your rules of war aren't working, use his or whatever it takes to defeat him.

If you adopt the "enemies" tactics, you surrender any moral highground you may have had, which kinda terminates any claim you may have had on dictating right or wrong.

Now, I'm realistic enough to know that there's going to be a fair amount of unpleasentness in any war between immoral or unscrupulous characters. C'est la guerre. The problem is that the way this has been conducted, the lack of oversight, the fact that people are bing pulled into this system (originally designed for "high value" targets) who have little or no appreciable intelligence value. That's not to say that torturing people is okay only if they are unrepentant bad guys, but all of this is pretty much anathema to democracy and the principles upon which it is founded.

All this to say that stories like this blur the lines in a narative that depends so heavily on clear "good guys" and "evildoers".

It eventually comes down to doing whatever it takes to preserve our society and way of life. As it isn't politically viable or publicly acceptable, it must be done covertly.

What good does preserving your way of life do when, in the process, you become that which you oppose?

[Shady]

You guys are missing the whole story. Who leaked this CIA classifed information, that's the real question.

[crazymf]

I believe the basic charter of human rights can be discarded in circumstances where the enemy does not recognise them, and he is actively engaging in the willful destruction of your society. In other words, if your rules of war aren't working, use his or whatever it takes to defeat him.

If you adopt the "enemies" tactics, you surrender any moral highground you may have had, which kinda terminates any claim you may have had on dictating right or wrong.

Now, I'm realistic enough to know that there's going to be a fair amount of unpleasentness in any war between immoral or unscrupulous characters. C'est la guerre. The problem is that the way this has been conducted, the lack of oversight, the fact that people are bing pulled into this system (originally designed for "high value" targets) who have little or no appreciable intelligence value. That's not to say that torturing people is okay only if they are unrepentant bad guys, but all of this is pretty much anathema to democracy and the principles upon which it is founded.

All this to say that stories like this blur the lines in a narative that depends so heavily on clear "good guys" and "evildoers".

It eventually comes down to doing whatever it takes to preserve our society and way of life. As it isn't politically viable or publicly acceptable, it must be done covertly.

What good does preserving your way of life do when, in the process, you become that which you oppose?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a fantasy world I totally agree with you. However, we need to sacrifice as few of our guys and as many of their guys as we can to win a war. If our rules handcuff us to the extent that the other guy can merely circumvent our beliefs to win for his side, where does that leave us? Would you and your family and our society rather be dead or be accused of stooping to levels deemed unacceptable to win? That's why it must be necessary but covert.

And to address the other issue, that's why leaks must be dealt with severely and the general public must never know about it. That way, most people can take high ground on the issues and pretend we are better humans than them. Our god is better than theirs, etc, etc.

Of course, I know nothing about covert operations and am just theorizing. My point is we must win somehow, and if that's how we do it, ehhhh, whatever. I can for one live with myself.

[Black Dog]

You guys are missing the whole story. Who leaked this CIA classifed information, that's the real question.

A) You don't know the status of the information before it got out, nor do you know how this information was obtained.

The existence of these prisons has been discussed since at least last year, so its not really news.

C) You're obfuscating. Or talking out of your ass. Probably both.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear PocketRocket,

Also, the indefinite "an Eastern European country" descriptive plants further seeds of doubt.

Of 'Eastern european' countries that sent troops into Iraq, the list is: Ukraine.

Mind you, the Balkans may be considered 'eastern', which would include Romania and Bulgaria. Keep in mind that the secrecy was to prevent 'terrorist retaliation'.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Shady,

You guys are missing the whole story. Who leaked this CIA classifed information, that's the real question.

If your beef is only that the information 'got out', and you believe that it is ok to kidnap, torture and murder someone, to arrest and hold indefinitely without trial, etc, how on earth can you condemn the 'terrorists' for the same tactics? As Black Dog opines,

What good does preserving your way of life do when, in the process, you become that which you oppose?

Much was made of 'leaks being tantamount to treason' in the book "Imperial Hubris" by Anonymous, (Micheal Scheuer), I urge you to read it.

However, you seem to be saying that "There is nothing wrong with terrorism" (as a method), so please explain exactly what you are supporting the fight against.

[crazymf]

Well, to be blunter than I was before, when those people continually plant roadside bombs, which are generally banned and called mines everywhere else, and routinely cut peoples heads off with knives to make their point, I don't really consider them human enough to express human rights in their direction.

We must deal with them in a way that THEY understand so we may prevail. Just like the Palestinian thing nowadays. Israel continually tries to reason and concede to their demands, to no avail. IMO, give them what they understand, death. Send them on because they obviously don't like it here.

[tml12]

can you say that you are surprised by this news?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not.

And I bet you that it's not the Americans who are doing the major interrogating. They don't have the stomachs for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The CIA has secret prisons?

I am shocked!!! I never thought the CIA had places where they kept people and interrogated them without actually charging them (like in Cuba).

In reality, yes they exist and no we shouldn't be shocked because I doubt this is front page news in the states.

[Black Dog]

Well, to be blunter than I was before, when those people continually plant roadside bombs, which are generally banned and called mines everywhere else, and routinely cut peoples heads off with knives to make their point, I don't really consider them human enough to express human rights in their direction.

You're missing the point entirely. We have no idea what these people are guitly of, or if they are guilty of anything at all.

From the WaPo article:

A second tier -- which these sources believe includes more than 70 detainees -- is a group considered less important, with less direct involvement in terrorism and having limited intelligence value.

There's no trials, no charges, only the CIA's word that they are "bad guys". Now that may be good enough for some people, but I don't think a society where the rule of law is discarded and where the state's say-so is sufficient for the persumption of guilt has any business calling itself a democracy, let alone a bastion of liberty.

We must deal with them in a way that THEY understand so we may prevail.

Narrow, ignorant thinking. Stories like this (and Abu Ghriab before) only serve to undermine the effort to combat terrorism by further enflaming anjti-western sentiment and stregthening radical ideaologies. The root of terrorism is an ideology that states that the west is engaged in a crusade against Islam hat must be countered by any means necessary: stories like this only serve to confirm those suspicions.

Just like the Palestinian thing nowadays. Israel continually tries to reason and concede to their demands, to no avail.

That's a laugh. Tell me, when has Israel ever conceded a damn thing?

(Oh and one more thing: land mines may be banned under the 1999 Ottawa Treaty, but 42 countries have refused to sign on...including the U.S.A. Also, according to wikipedia, "Landmines generally refer to devices specifically manufactured for purpose, as distinguished from improvised explosive devices.")

If your beef is only that the information 'got out', and you believe that it is ok to kidnap, torture and murder someone, to arrest and hold indefinitely without trial, etc, how on earth can you condemn the 'terrorists' for the same tactics?

Shady's just trolling.

[moderateamericain]

Intresting article to say the least. Personally i believe that the CIA is very capable of doing this. However, i dont really feel that the article had a smoking gun to prove it. It says are "source", which to me says they dont wish to reveal the source, which i could understand why; as this could be construted as revealing classified information. which of course is illegal. its a good article i would just like to have it verified throught a credible source than mystery man x.

[crazymf]

Well BD. The way I see it, if somebody picks up a gun and points it at me, to hell with his human rights.

You make semi valid points all within the spectrum of your scope of argument. The bad guys aren't in your spectrum. What would you do then? Keep argueing while they slice your jugular?

I'm thinking that's where we are with the CIA and their bad guys. I don't want to know, just do what needs done, get rid of the problem and call it a day.

And Israel handing over Gaza wasn't a major concession? At least Israel tries diplomacy before they shoot. Last time I checked, they don't send 16 year old self propelled bombs out to kill people either.

[Guest eureka]

It was not a concession at all. It was succumbing to pressure both international and internal (from Palestinians to return stolen property.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear crazymf,

The way I see it, if somebody picks up a gun and points it at me, to hell with his human rights.

A dangerous precedent to set, but to some degree I agree with you. In this country,we coddle our criminals too much, but there is also a danger of losing our 'moral compass' and, as Black Dog states, 'becoming what we oppose'.

I'm thinking that's where we are with the CIA and their bad guys. I don't want to know, just do what needs done, get rid of the problem and call it a day.

The worry we should all have is how they treat you if they decide one day that YOU are a problem...Joseph McCarthy died only recently...

[crazymf]

A dangerous precedent to set, but to some degree I agree with you. In this country,we coddle our criminals too much, but there is also a danger of losing our 'moral compass' and, as Black Dog states, 'becoming what we oppose'.

Now that's truly a Canadian stance. View both sides and try to walk down the middle. You'd lose your moral compass by blowing away some sob in self defence? That's providing he didn't blow you away while you ponder becoming him. I guess that's honorable enough, but you'd be dead.

The worry we should all have is how they treat you if they decide one day that YOU are a problem...Joseph McCarthy died only recently...

Yes. That's why there's checks and balances. McCarthyism, Vietnam, Korea, all examples of a state reacting to a situation that made perfect sense at the time. I believe there are people in the world ie.USA, that have learned by those encounters. Are there injustices in the world? No doubt, but there are times when indecision doesn't cut it. A war is one of those times.

The difference is this war at the present time doesn't really have an immediate chance of making us lose our land and society. If times got tough, I suspect I wouldn't hear too much whining about human rights violations.

That's why I don't mind the CIA doing their work and trying to stomp this out before it gets out of hand.

[PocketRocket]

Yes. That's why there's checks and balances. McCarthyism, Vietnam, Korea, all examples of a state reacting to a situation that made perfect sense at the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Howdy, CRAZYMF:

I have to take issue with at least part of this statement.

McCarthyism??? Reacting to a situation that made perfect sense at the time???

Are you aware of McCarthy's role in trying to have comic books banned???

You see, it was a "proven fact" that comics turned kids into murderers and, worse yet, communists.

I can't really see the "perfect sense" there.

I would agree with your statement if it included the phrase "would have made perfect sense to a paranoia-stricken person at the time".

Some people always fear the worst, and when there is no worst, they invent one.

[PocketRocket]

Dear PocketRocket,

Also, the indefinite "an Eastern European country" descriptive plants further seeds of doubt.

Of 'Eastern european' countries that sent troops into Iraq, the list is: Ukraine.

Mind you, the Balkans may be considered 'eastern', which would include Romania and Bulgaria. Keep in mind that the secrecy was to prevent 'terrorist retaliation'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

G'day, 'LONIOUS:

*chuckle* "terrorist retaliation".

Like they're going to attack a highly-guarded prison camp in a foreign country.

Hardly the MO of all the terrorists we've come to know.

But hey, "security" is always a good buzzword to keep the masses pacified.