Attention American forum members

[Montgomery Burns]

The film Dead Meat is now available for the public to watch. The film is about Canada's disasterous abused socialist healthcare system:

"I have the flu; I scraped my knee; I will go to the doctor; it is, after all, "free"."

When you have finished watching this film several images will remain with you for some time to come. A woman who spent 2 years waiting for knee surgery and innocently asks the American filmmakers whether the waiting lists are as long in the US as they are in Canada. The moment when she begins to grasp that a healthcare waiting list is a concept alien to most sick Americans is something that cannot be explained. More stories follow of addiction to pain killers brought on by wait times, of the suffering families go through, of men and women calmly contemplating death for ailments which medical science long ago conquered, but which government control has placed out of reach.

You will learn why there are literally busloads of Canadians flocking across the US border on a near daily basis for healthcare - and why virtually no Americans flock to Canada for healthcare.

You will learn how Canada spends less on healthcare than the US by arbitrarily controlling the costs limiting the number and availability of doctors, specialists, operating room hours, high-tech equipment, diagnostic tests, drugs and expensive treatments. To wit, the govt limits the supply of health care in order to hold costs down. The result: shortages, rationing, and long wait lists - and death.

Don't ever forget that every credible historian puts the number of dead innocents - in the 20th century - at the hands of far-left policies at a bare minimum of 100 million people.

You will learn that the mortality ratio in Canada for breast cancer is 12% higher in Canada than in the US. You will learn that the prostrate cancer mortality rate in Canada is 32% higher than in the US.

You will learn that many Canadians who have never been really sick are supportive of their system. You will learn how the Canadian system caters to the healthy majority with free primary care doctor appointments, flu shots, etc. while depriving the truly sick - often the elderly - of timely medical treatment that is often more expensive. Political expediency dictates that health care dollars are spent where the votes are: the healthy majority - while across Canada, hundreds of thousands of sick and disabled people quietly languish in pain in their homes on long waiting lists for treatment while being told that to question the moral supremacy of their health care system is somehow "Un-Canadian".

I think that most honest Canadians will admit this. I think every Canadian knows someone who has died from the lack of Canadian healthcare, or at the very least, have had to go to the USA to be healed--all the while spending Canadian money in the US. My aunt got a call from the hospital informing her that after a year and a half of being on a waiting list, her dad was next to be operated on.

Trouble is that my aunt's dad died 5 months earlier from the complications of his illness.

You will learn that Canada is 1 of only 3 countries on the entire planet that makes private healthcare ILLEGAL. Cuba and North Korea are the other 2 countries. No freedom of choice for Canadians.

(I'm sure that PR will drop in to smugly mock America's freedoms)

Idealogy over freedom always comes first when it comes to the far left.

Remember, my American friends: The Hildebeest wants this frighteningly murderous socialist healhcare system for you!

Watch this film now!

And don't ever forget Hillary's infamous statement at a Democrat fund-raiser in San Francisco on June 28, 2004:

"The [bush] tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good".

[BZBee]

Oh, it does burn me up when I read crap such as this. If you haven't lived in both countries and experienced healthcare in both, then you don't have the right to spew off about one over the other.

And by the way, healthcare in Canada IS NOT FREE. EVERYONE pays into it. I will take high taxes and the Canadian healthcare system any day over the US system.

I am sorry for you aunt's loss but millions of Americans cannot afford health insurance so a waiting list would be a very attractive alternative for them. However, in all of my years in Canada I was never put on a waiting list for ANY surgery...and I had 7 surgeries (5 major) in Canada. I've had 2 major surgeries here in the US and can tell you from personal experience that the care I received pre, during and post hospitalization here in the US was in no way superior to that which I received in Canada. As a matter of fact, I saw the nursing staff and my doctors more often in the Canadian hospitals. I never waited more than 2-3 hours in an emergency room in Canada; I recently had cause to visit the waiting room of our local hospital and waited more than 4 hours to get an ultrasound, then another 3-1/2 before they told me what was wrong with me (that’s an entire work day).

You think it's better here in the US? Why not live here and pay the outrageous monthly premiums for health insurance and then be told which doctors you can and can't see? To see a specialist you have to get a referral and/or prior authorization. I had to jump through hoops prior to my surgeries here. Let's not forget the cost of prescription drugs here in the US. There are elderly folks who have to choose between food and the prescribed medicine they need to survive. Would you like to make that choice? If you die of malnutrition then I suppose the medicine won't do much good, would it?

Many Canadians complain about the healthcare system but are they willing to pay a co-pay or usage fee for improved health services? Nah, probably not...so how about getting these same Canadians to pay big bucks in monthly premiums to greedy insurance companies? Well, that's how it works here in the US. So, Canadians who come across to the US for (in their opinion, better) healthcare should be thanked by those of you in Canada who use the system for not tying up services that are urgently needed by those who do not have the money, time or means to get to the US.

Wait a second, I just had a thought....do you (OP) run one of those greedy insurance companies that is just chomping at the bit to get in the door to "insure" the Canadian population?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Many Canadians complain about the healthcare system but are they willing to pay a co-pay or usage fee for improved health services? Nah, probably not...so how about getting these same Canadians to pay big bucks in monthly premiums to greedy insurance companies? Well, that's how it works here in the US. So, Canadians who come across to the US for (in their opinion, better) healthcare should be thanked by those of you in Canada who use the system for not tying up services that are urgently needed by those who do not have the money, time or means to get to the US.

They couldn't even if they wanted to in most cases....insured services for CHA covered procedures is still illegal in Canada despite the SCC's ruling. Services in the US are not always better, but often much faster, even without insurance. Canadians have the right...no, duty...to wait.

Buying medicine or food is an easy decision.

HillaryCare was DOA in '93....not so great for '08 (either). Medical-Pharma-Insurance is about 17% of US GDP....they won't go down without a fight.

[geoffrey]

And by the way, healthcare in Canada IS NOT FREE. EVERYONE pays into it. I will take high taxes and the Canadian healthcare system any day over the US system.

I wouldn't, Canada's system is a dysfunction mess. I've had a close family member fly down to the States for treatment (and diagnosis) because the doctors in Canada proved to be entirely incompetent in their work. I don't blame the doctors, but the situation they are given. No time to spend on individual patients, no resources, poor technology (I love reading in the papers when towns celebrate the opening of their new MRI).

In the US, she got the full care she required and was spared much suffering because of it... all within weeks. In years in Canada nothing was done. Fortunately, my family could afford it. What of all those that can't afford the thousands (sometimes more) to send a loved one to the United States... ie. the vast majority of Canadians? They just suffer in agony, no chance to buy private health insurance (which isn't that expensive in the big picture), no option to purchase better or more expedient care in Canada.

The SCC even ruled against the system in saying that people have the right to pay to save their lives.

That's how twisted and failed our system is.

In Alberta, we had a hospital shut down because the tools weren't being scrubbed of human flesh between surgeries, thousands need to be tested for HIV and Hep A&B now. Their compensation if they aquired any illness will likely be a pitance, in the US that type of negligence would render you bankrupt on the spot.

It sounds like Zimbabwe, not the second richest region of the world.

There is zero accountability for either the doctors, support staff or the patients.

I'm tired of Canada's piss poor health care system and the suffering it causes to untold thousands. Let me purchase insurance to cover my needs and buy more expedient care. I have the ultimate right to protect my individual person, and the Canada Health Act and the Canadian mentality on this issue prevents me acting to defend that right.

We don't have to go to an American system. I know there are many many problems with that. But why not look at the modern systems in France, Sweden or Germany. They have exceptional care, high medical standards and a strong underlying universality. They also protect the individuals right to preserve themselves.

We can build a system in Canada, but it's not the decades old system of Tommy Douglas, one in the same league as Cuba or North Korea.

It's failed. Get over it. Let's move on before many more thousands die and suffer at the hands of an absolutely appalling ideology.

[BZBee]

There you have it, your family could afford it so your family member came to the US for medical services the same medical services that many Americans cannot access because of lack of health insurance. My point is, even if it was better and faster in the US what good is it to those who cannot afford health insurance in this country?

Not that expensive in the big picture? My parents are both retired (my dad worked for many years here in the US) and are on Medicare and have to pay out $400.00+/month in gap health insurance...that's a good chunk of dad's social security check each month.

As for accountability, a Doctor can be found guilty of malpractice in one State but then he can just move to another State and start practicing again. Also, the rules have changed for malpractice lawsuits here (in favor of the doctors, of course).

I must have had excellent doctors or must be exceptionally fortunate since I really have nothing to complain about with regard to the care I received from my Canadian doctors and the hospitals I stayed in. I have family in Canada who also have no complaints (apart from having too long a wait in a doctor's waiting room). Considering the haste in which my doctors got me into the hospitals when I needed surgery, I am just having a difficult time believing that there are doctors who have patients with chronic conditions who don't do what they took the Hippocratic Oath to do. Incidentally, the Bee Gee brother who died in

Maybe I ought to keep up more with what's going on in Canada but I must say that I'm surprised that the mortality rate is not much higher considering the "piss poor" health care system. People die here every day as well from shoddy medical services.

[August1991]

There you have it, your family could afford it so your family member came to the US for medical services the same medical services that many Americans cannot access because of lack of health insurance. My point is, even if it was better and faster in the US what good is it to those who cannot afford health insurance in this country?

The choice Canadians face is not between Canada's current health system and the US heath system. To present the argument that way is to present what is called a false dichotomy.

Almost all European countries have almost no waiting lists and everyone is covered.

There are many, many ways to improve Canada's health system while still maintaining a state health insurance scheme for everyone.

[ScottSA]

As for accountability, a Doctor can be found guilty of malpractice in one State but then he can just move to another State and start practicing again. Also, the rules have changed for malpractice lawsuits here (in favor of the doctors, of course).

That's one reason the health system there costs so much. Insurance premiums are skyhigh. Medical malpractice is not pandemic. Lawsuits are.

[BZBee]

The choice Canadians face is not between Canada's current health system and the US heath system. To present the argument that way is to present what is called a false dichotomy.

Well, that is good news but what I've been reading is that (Canadian) lives are being saved in the US while Canada is just letting her population die.

Almost all European countries have almost no waiting lists and everyone is covered.

Well, ya don't want to be like the UK....the wait times there are excessive. Friends in the UK told us of wait times of more than 5 years for elective surgery.

There are many, many ways to improve Canada's health system while still maintaining a state health insurance scheme for everyone.

Well, I think that anyone who thinks they have the answer to the problem should start writing letters to their Members of Parliament. There is strength in numbers so get family and friends to do the same.

[Shakeyhands]

I've had extensive experience within the healthcare system, and what I can tell you is that most of the above is most definately the exception and no where close to the rule. Yes, I will agree that we need to do a much better job of educating people on when it is appropriate to go to the Emergency room and when it is not, there are a few slow people out there that don't seem to get it. However, when I have gone in for something not so serious, say a twist or whatever, I sit and I expect to, but when I've been brought in, or my parents or my child for something remotely serious, we're whisked right in, and the care is outstanding. I call bollocks on this waiting BS, its a figment of those who have no clue how good we have it's imagination. I'd have been ruined financially 10 times over if our system wasn't the way it is. That must make you feel good, I know that if it was the oter way around, and I helped you get over an injury or illness without destroying you financially I'd feel good, real good. Is there room for improvemment in some areas? Yeah there is, so lets support fundraising efforts and keep our politicians on the nut to make sure healthcare spending goes to the critical areas.

[guyser]

That's one reason the health system there costs so much. Insurance premiums are skyhigh. Medical malpractice is not pandemic. Lawsuits are.

The lawsuits are merely following the malpractice. Drs and hospitals are their own worst enemy. Putting a cap on lawsuits would be ridiculous. It would keep the same Drs mistakes happening time and tme again.

Rising premiums are not just due to lawsuits either. They are a result of poor management of investments, and to be honest the market was bad, and poorly managed premium targets .

[Guthrie]

What exactly is an, "American forum member?" - as opposed to a "Maple Leaf Web Forum Member?"

[Wilber]

That's one reason the health system there costs so much. Insurance premiums are skyhigh. Medical malpractice is not pandemic. Lawsuits are.

The lawsuits are merely following the malpractice. Drs and hospitals are their own worst enemy. Putting a cap on lawsuits would be ridiculous. It would keep the same Drs mistakes happening time and tme again.

Rising premiums are not just due to lawsuits either. They are a result of poor management of investments, and to be honest the market was bad, and poorly managed premium targets .

I dissagree, things like product liability and malpratice litigation have been an anchor around the neck of US productivity. Open ended product liability destroyed the light aircraft industry in the US. Courts were awarding monster settlements after crashes of 30+ year old aircraft because the company didn't warn the owners that certain parts like seat tracks would eventually wear out and fail if they weren't inspected and maintained. Cessna, the largest aircraft maker in the world in volume stopped building general aviation aircraft all together and has just restarted limited production since there have been some limits put on liability. Piper said that each aircraft cost them more in product liability than the labour it took to build them. They are basicaly hand built. Cessna said it cost them an average of over $60K per aircraft built.

People need to be held financialy responsible for their actions but the US has gone overboard. Their huge settlements penalize far more people than those directly involved.

In the words of Stuart Millar the former owner of Piper at an EAA seminar at Oshkosh. "I hear a lot of people say I don't like lawyers. I like em just fine if you cook em right."

Answers.com

Most seriously, Millar decided to forgo liability insurance in a highly litigious environment. Under existing law, the company's owner was potentially liable for every plane made by Piper since 1937--a total of 100,000 aircraft. To fend off nuisance suits, the company hired "the meanest bunch of junkyard-dog lawyers," said one company executive. They succeeded in reducing awards against the company from $30 million in 1987 to $8 million in 1989. The company had been paying $25 million a year for product liability insurance with a $15 million deductible.

[guyser]

I dissagree, things like product liability and malpratice litigation have been an anchor around the neck of US productivity.

Ahh...but you are to some extent agreeing with me. The anchor would not be there if the product was correct in the first place. USA is all about free market this, freemarket that, capitalism et al. If the products were not faulty, then the courts would have no place in this . But they arent, and the courts and settlements reflect this.

Open ended product liability destroyed the light aircraft industry in the US. Courts were awarding monster settlements after crashes of 30+ year old aircraft because the company didn't warn the owners that certain parts like seat tracks would eventually wear out and fail if they weren't inspected and maintained. Cessna, the largest aircraft maker in the world in volume stopped building general aviation aircraft all together and has just restarted limited production since there have been some limits put on liability. Piper said that each aircraft cost them more in product liability than the labour it took to build them. They are basicaly hand built. Cessna said it cost them an average of over $60K per aircraft built.

I am unaware about Cessna, although I do like flying in their planes. I will grant you this one company . But in general I would disagree . Planned obsolesence is usually not awarded in courts.

People need to be held financialy responsible for their actions but the US has gone overboard. Their huge settlements penalize far more people than those directly involved.

Some of the settlements do have an unusual impact. But the opposite is that companies feel free to build inferior products because they have no fear of legal ramifications.

[Wilber]

Ahh...but you are to some extent agreeing with me. The anchor would not be there if the product was correct in the first place. USA is all about free market this, freemarket that, capitalism et al. If the products were not faulty, then the courts would have no place in this . But they arent, and the courts and settlements reflect this.

Nothing can be built which will last forever. You cannot hold the builder liable forever. It has nothing to do with planned obsolescence or building inferior products. If you use something, eventually it will wear out. It wasn't like foreign manufacturers took over from Cessna and Piper because their products were inferior. Brand new light aircraft of any origin are rare these days and the price of older ones has gone through the roof. I sold a 1964 vintage Piper Cherokee in 1988 for 18K CAD. It would easily be worth over 50K now because the price of a Warrior III, the latest version is over 200K US.

The liability problem is not just for the aircraft manufacturer alone but the manufacturer of every nut, bolt, bearing or other part in it. As an engine shop guy once said to me when I was bitching about the price of some part. "I can show you a $200 bearing. You can probably buy the same thing from Timkin for $20 but it isn't certified and doesn't have the right part #." Why? largely because of certification costs and a huge amount of liability for a limited production part.

It wasn't just Cessna, most companies didn't survive and Piper also had to be resurrected by new owners.

[guyser]

Nothing can be built which will last forever. You cannot hold the builder liable forever. It has nothing to do with planned obsolescence or building inferior products. If you use something, eventually it will wear out.

A builder is liable for ever. Very few limitations on tail end liability as known to me. Engineers have them , although I believe they are trying for 40 yr tails. Engineers designed the planes. If something goes wrong that they "should" have or "ought" to have known would occur then they are rightly held responsible.

Normal wear and tear generally is excused from any court action. In this specific case (that I dont know of) there may be action that does not make sense, but I can be reasonably sure that they would have proven some form of negligence to the court. I can think of one comparison. We never hear of a suit over a timing belt on a car. They tend to go out somewhere around 80,000K , or at least they recommend you change it then. But lots dont, and when it goes, so does their pocketbook. But it does not make court.

I sold a 1964 vintage Piper Cherokee in 1988 for 18K CAD. It would easily be worth over 50K now because the price of a Warrior III, the latest version is over 200K US.

Damn thats harsh...wish you had kept it now I will bet.

The liability problem is not just for the aircraft manufacturer alone but the manufacturer of every nut, bolt, bearing or other part in it. As an engine shop guy once said to me when I was bitching about the price of some part. "I can show you a $200 bearing. You can probably buy the same thing from Timkin for $20 but it isn't certified and doesn't have the right part #." Why? largely because of certification costs and a huge amount of liability for a limited production part.

I know of which you speak. That problem arises with everything. The problem here is that one component of an aircraft, hell anything at all, may cause a crash accident etc. But that one part mfg'er did not or does not carry liability insurance. The costs, or rather the judgement is then placed on the deep pockets of the others. Vicarious liability sucks.

And for the most part , liability bought today is not for the suit you may get this year. It is the one you get ten years down the road. Even if today no one carried liability insurance they would still have representation by the ins co that was in force at the time that product was made. (thats the "tail" )

It wasn't just Cessna, most companies didn't survive and Piper also had to be resurrected by new owners.

Not sure if you mean all companies didnt survive or plane co's?

[Wilber]

Normal wear and tear generally is excused from any court action. In this specific case (that I dont know of) there may be action that does not make sense, but I can be reasonably sure that they would have proven some form of negligence to the court. I can think of one comparison.

One particular case over 20 years ago a 20+ old Cessna crashed because the seat tracks were worn out, the pilots seat slid back after take off resulting a loss of control and the deaths of 4 people. There was 20M plus award against Cessna because they hadn't informed owners that they needed to be inspected. If it was a hidden defect, I might have some sympathy but this is a part that can easily be seen with the naked eye without removing anything and should be expected to wear.

The costs, or rather the judgement is then placed on the deep pockets of the others.

It is placed on all those who have to buy liability insurance and their customers. In the case of aircraft being bought for commercial use it is placed on the customers customers. One thing I didn't mention about Millar. His tactic failed not because he wasn't successful in drastically cutting claims against him. It failed because suppliers wouldn't serve him because he didn't have insurance. Catch 22. Even though he cut claims to 8M he was still forced to pay 25M for insurance with a 15 M deductible to stay in business. Bottom line is, he couldn't. Such is the fear of litigation in the US. A historic company fails and its employees are out of work. Most of the rest of the industry went with it. All the innovation in light aircraft for the past 30 years has been with amateur and kit builders. Regular manufacturers can't absorb the cost of innovation and the risk it presents.

Read an instruction manual for anything you buy, up to 50% of it is legal ass covering that has nothing to do with operating the thing.

Not sure if you mean all companies didnt survive or plane co's?

General aviation aircraft manufacturers.

In the sixties you could buy a 4 place light aircraft for not much more than a loaded Caddy or Lincoln. Now you are looking at closer to Bentley and Ferrari prices.

[guyser]

One particular case over 20 years ago a 20+ old Cessna crashed because the seat tracks were worn out, the pilots seat slid back after take off resulting a loss of control and the deaths of 4 people. There was 20M plus award against Cessna because they hadn't informed owners that they needed to be inspected. If it was a hidden defect, I might have some sympathy but this is a part that can easily be seen with the naked eye without removing anything and should be expected to wear.

Do you know who was listed as being served? That may be an explanation. One of the four killed,likely had a family member who was suing. As such, the judgement may have gone against the pilot for error in keeping the plane safe, but since his assets are less than Cessna, Cessna pays. Not definitive though.

A historic company fails and its employees are out of work. Most of the rest of the industry went with it. All the innovation in light aircraft for the past 30 years has been with amateur and kit builders. Regular manufacturers can't absorb the cost of innovation and the risk it presents.

In this case you may be right, but generally speaking, the companies may WANT us to think they failed as a result of this, there were many other concerns going on to lead to insolvency.

Read an instruction manual for anything you buy, up to 50% of it is legal ass covering that has nothing to do with operating the thing.

The courts long ago realized that consumers are dumb. The companies caught up real fast.

[Wilber]

The courts long ago realized that consumers are dumb. The companies caught up real fast.

It seems only American consumers are dumb. A common refrain on such programs as Fifth Gear and Top Gear in the UK when they review American cars is the number of inane placards that come with them pointing out the obvious which only a moron who should never be let near a car let alone given a driver's license should need. All legal ass covering.

[Wilber]

In this case you may be right, but generally speaking, the companies may WANT us to think they failed as a result of this, there were many other concerns going on to lead to insolvency.

If that were the case why hasn't the void they created been filled by foreign manufacturers like it has in the auto and electronics industries?

[GostHacked]

Nice to see you posting again Monty.

I have had 3 trips to the hospital here in Ottawa 3 times in the last month. I had gone to a walk in clinic to find out why my testicles are always feeling a constant preassure on them. Like someone sqeezing them. First off this doctor was a total hack. I explained what was happening. I feel pain there, but other than that, ALL other functions are normal and not causing pain. He asked me how long has it been since I have had the sex. In his best broken Vietemese accented english, I had to ask a few times what he said. I had told him it has been a couple years. So he surmised it was just 'build up'. I told him that gets taken care of.

So after that debacle I went to Monfort here in Ottawa. I had spent the day there really, got in at 6AM, registered, described my problem, took 3 hours to see a doctor. Then I waited 2 more hours to get an ultrasound done on my boys. Then waited another hour to see what the results were. Hydrocele is what my problem is. It is not a serious condition but can affect my fertility. So now I am waiting for a Urologist to call me and book and appointment. I have waited 4 weeks now, and the doctor should have called me in two weeks. From talking to others with similar issues, I have found out there are only 2 or 3 urologists here in Ottawa. The capitol of Canada, and only two specialists for this type of problem. I am on medication for it, but if I am on it too long, I risk stomach ulcers, so I have been hesitant to really take this stuff. I have been somewhat irratible as of late because it is a constant pain.

My second trip was to the main hospital here in Ottawa on Smyth road. I had crushed my had between a pallet hauler handle and a cement post. No broken bones and the total time there was 2 hours. The waiting room was bigger than Monfort and way more people there. So getting in, x-rayed and all ... two hours. Not bad.

So one trip was good, the other not so good.

[BZBee]

Oh my gosh...all those years in Quebec and resenting the fact that I was not fluently bilingual, I may not have been fair to that Province at all....apparently, the doctors and medical services there seem to be superior to most of the rest of Canada.

[geoffrey]

There you have it, your family could afford it so your family member came to the US for medical services the same medical services that many Americans cannot access because of lack of health insurance. My point is, even if it was better and faster in the US what good is it to those who cannot afford health insurance in this country?

It's all about choices. A second job can easily cover insurance if your first doesn't pay enough.

Not that expensive in the big picture? My parents are both retired (my dad worked for many years here in the US) and are on Medicare and have to pay out $400.00+/month in gap health insurance...that's a good chunk of dad's social security check each month.

$400 a month? That's cheap. Do you know how much a Blue Cross plan costs in Canada if it's not provided by your employer? Add that onto the 30% of your tax bill that goes to health care. Hmm. $400 sounds really good right about now. Your government care provides you with some stitches and someone to set your arm when you break it (it doesn't cover a cast).

People are dillusional. You pay tons for your private health insurance in Canada, but people take that for granted because it's normally employer provided. Knowing the cost would shock you, and make you reconsider your cost criticism.

As for accountability, a Doctor can be found guilty of malpractice in one State but then he can just move to another State and start practicing again. Also, the rules have changed for malpractice lawsuits here (in favor of the doctors, of course).

And in Canada, you'll get hard a dime from negligence and the tax payer, not the doctor, foots the settlement.

I must have had excellent doctors or must be exceptionally fortunate since I really have nothing to complain about with regard to the care I received from my Canadian doctors and the hospitals I stayed in. I have family in Canada who also have no complaints (apart from having too long a wait in a doctor's waiting room).

The average ER wait time in Calgary this month is 8 hours. It can take over a year to fix a hip that causes extreme pain and a loss of mobility in a seniors final days. It takes weeks to get into a non-emergency MRI.

And they aren't even allowed to pay to end their suffering.

It's a terrible disaster we have right now.

Considering the haste in which my doctors got me into the hospitals when I needed surgery, I am just having a difficult time believing that there are doctors who have patients with chronic conditions who don't do what they took the Hippocratic Oath to do.

They have their hands tied. They see hundreds of patients and have limited tools at their disposal. I'm sure the doctors try very hard.

We have a world renowned eye surgeon in Calgary. A couple years ago, a relative of mine paid to have private surgery from him to correct a vision problem (within the Canada Health Act). I picked them up and discussed the system briefly. He only operates in Canada 6 months of the year because the government won't fund more operations... operations that have massive impact on people's quality of life. So he does up his Alberta quota in 6 months and then makes a few million south of the border the other six months.

The sad part is that he's willing to work all year around in Canada.

Now this particular case might have changed, but it shows how our great doctors have their hands tied. After he fills his quota, he has to go to the States to help people. Why not allow him to stay in Canada and let me pay out of my pocket to get my eyes fixed by him? There is no rationality in our system.

Maybe I ought to keep up more with what's going on in Canada but I must say that I'm surprised that the mortality rate is not much higher considering the "piss poor" health care system. People die here every day as well from shoddy medical services.

No doubt. My experience is rather limited to Calgary, Montreal and Toronto. Rural Canada sometimes has it better off, sometimes it's a disaster too (an ER is closed in Nova Scotia right now because the doctor is on vacation). Personally, I know better to drive to Canmore (an hour) or to High River (1/2 an hour) if I needed ER care because I'd be in within a half hour. In Calgary, if your not dying (like a broken arm), you can wait 12+. That's not proper health care.

Funny, when I was in Mexico, I had the best health care experience of my life, in an urgent care type setting.

Almost all European countries have almost no waiting lists and everyone is covered.

There are many, many ways to improve Canada's health system while still maintaining a state health insurance scheme for everyone.

Exactly right August. It's alot of fear mongering that keeps Canadians from improving our system. We've got a terrible system compared to France or Sweden or Germany or even the more market oriented Ireland. It's time we move on.

[guyser]

$400 a month? That's cheap. Do you know how much a Blue Cross plan costs in Canada if it's not provided by your employer? Add that onto the 30% of your tax bill that goes to health care. Hmm. $400 sounds really good right about now. Your government care provides you with some stitches and someone to set your arm when you break it (it doesn't cover a cast).

How much would Blue Cross cost?

And in Canada, you'll get hard a dime from negligence and the tax payer, not the doctor, foots the settlement.

No you will get it from the insurer , not the taxpayer.

It's a terrible disaster we have right now.

Just horrible , next thing you know people are dying on the streets.

[stignasty]

$400 a month? That's cheap. Do you know how much a Blue Cross plan costs in Canada if it's not provided by your employer? Add that onto the 30% of your tax bill that goes to health care. Hmm. $400 sounds really good right about now. Your government care provides you with some stitches and someone to set your arm when you break it (it doesn't cover a cast).

I went to the Alberta Blue Cross website, but they don't have prices.

I did find this though:

"Canada's taxation laws now allow you to deduct the cost of your Alberta Blue Cross health and dental plan premiums. That could mean sizeable savings off the cost of coverage for you and your family!"

http://www.ab.bluecross.ca/ip_tax.html

[BZBee]

It's all about choices. A second job can easily cover insurance if your first doesn't pay enough.

I'm sure all the single parents who already work 6 or 7 days a week and double shifts would love that solution.

$400 a month? That's cheap. Do you know how much a Blue Cross plan costs in Canada if it's not provided by your employer? Add that onto the 30% of your tax bill that goes to health care. Hmm. $400 sounds really good right about now. Your government care provides you with some stitches and someone to set your arm when you break it (it doesn't cover a cast).

Did you miss the part that it's "GAP" insurance? FYI, that means that it is subsidized by the Government so $400/month is not the full cost…..plus they still get the honor of dishing out a co-pay. I guess you also missed the fact that they are retirees? That means living on a fixed (and very limited) income.

People are dillusional. You pay tons for your private health insurance in Canada, but people take that for granted because it's normally employer provided. Knowing the cost would shock you, and make you reconsider your cost criticism.

I am Canadian and never had private health insurance in Canada. I worked on contract and had no coverage under an employer's health insurance plan yet I was hospitalized due to necessary surgery and did not have to pay the hospital....that was taken care of with my taxes. So, you're wrong, I will not reconsider my cost criticism.

And in Canada, you'll get hard a dime from negligence and the tax payer, not the doctor, foots the settlement.

Can't be all that much to pass on to the Canadian taxpayer if the settlement is hardly a dime. So, you think that the doctor foots the bill in the US? Ha!! Think again. The doctor's insurance company pays the settlement and the doctor gets hit with higher premiums and these costs are then passed on to their patients.

The average ER wait time in Calgary this month is 8 hours. It can take over a year to fix a hip that causes extreme pain and a loss of mobility in a seniors final days. It takes weeks to get into a non-emergency MRI

I guess what I stated in a previous post is accurate; seems like Quebec has their healthcare act together and other provinces can learn from them.

I waited weeks in the US for my non-emergency CT-scan. My sister sees her neurologist in Montreal and gets her MRI the following week because her condition warrants it and there are many others who do as well so why would you not expect to wait while the urgent needs are met? I would not expect an ER to put me at the head of the line with my broken arm while the guy next to me is bleeding profusely.

And they aren't even allowed to pay to end their suffering

The Americans will take their money....but only greenbacks; they don't accept Canadian money.

It's a terrible disaster we have right now.

You said yourself that you can drive ½ or an hour to an alternate ER and be in and out in ½ hour; so, you do have a choice. Such a terrible disaster!!

We have a world renowned eye surgeon in Calgary. A couple years ago, a relative of mine paid to have private surgery from him to correct a vision problem (within the Canada Health Act). I picked them up and discussed the system briefly. He only operates in Canada 6 months of the year because the government won't fund more operations... operations that have massive impact on people's quality of life. So he does up his Alberta quota in 6 months and then makes a few million south of the border the other six months.

The sad part is that he's willing to work all year around in Canada.

Are you sure this makes sense? Wouldn’t he have to work rather quickly in order to get through his “quota” in 6 months so he can dash across the border to make his few million? What about the other doctors in his field? Do they drag out their quota so they will have something to do all year long or are they also capable of getting their quota done in 6 months? Do they all go to the US to make millions or do some of them sit around for 6 months with their thumb up their butt?

The sad part is that he's willing to work all year around in Canada.

I don’t think that’s the sad part at all. I think the sad part is that some of these great doctors are feeding the theory of the "broken" system. For some, it's all about the money and not about the healing.

Now this particular case might have changed, but it shows how our great doctors have their hands tied. After he fills his quota, he has to go to the States to help people. Why not allow him to stay in Canada and let me pay out of my pocket to get my eyes fixed by him? There is no rationality in our system.

No doubt. My experience is rather limited to Calgary, Montreal and Toronto. Rural Canada sometimes has it better off, sometimes it's a disaster too (an ER is closed in Nova Scotia right now because the doctor is on vacation). Personally, I know better to drive to Canmore (an hour) or to High River (1/2 an hour) if I needed ER care because I'd be in within a half hour. In Calgary, if your not dying (like a broken arm), you can wait 12+. That's not proper health care.

And my experiences are limited to Montreal and the US so I can only compare the two. You can't tell me that there is rationality in a system where the World's most powerful country is incapable of putting in place a system that entitles it's citizens the right to healthcare and, further, is unconcerned that a number of people almost equivalent to the population of Canada have no health insurance.

Funny, when I was in Mexico, I had the best health care experience of my life, in an urgent care type setting.

I can honestly tell you that I hope to never need urgent, or any, healthcare while in Mexico.

Exactly right August. It's alot of fear mongering that keeps Canadians from improving our system. We've got a terrible system compared to France or Sweden or Germany or even the more market oriented Ireland. It's time we move on.

Fear mongering; fear of what? I know nothing of the system in France, Sweden, Germany, or Ireland but obviously you do. However, even if it is your opinion that Canada has a terrible system compared to those countries, it is my opinion that Canada's system is not the worst in the civilized world.