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Liberal fiscal update, has left most of us with some question.


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They say they have a plan to spend about 481 billion, to counter the pandemic, OK , they even included time frames for pay back, which leads me to this question. How do they mange to pay down over 330 bil from 21 -23, where is the funds coming from, no mention of tax increases, no mention on which dept is going to get cut, so we are sort of left guessing how much is this going to hurt... My next question if we can pay back 330 bil of debt in 2 years time  A first for this nation, i mean those around for Chretien decade of darkness know that cuts hurt like crazy....and we did by know means reach 330 bil in 2 years.... Whats been stopping us from doing it before now and if it is this easy, why 1.4 trillion in debt ? I really hoping some one can fill in the blanks why not 660 bil in 4 years and i'll vote liberal all day long....yes i did say liberal...

 

Fiscal update sets up $100B more spending on economic stimulus, atop $381B deficit (msn.com)

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9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They say they have a plan to spend about 481 billion, to counter the pandemic, OK , they even included time frames for pay back, which leads me to this question. How do they mange to pay down over 330 bil from 21 -23, where is the funds coming from, no mention of tax increases, no mention on which dept is going to get cut, so we are sort of left guessing how much is this going to hurt... My next question if we can pay back 330 bil of debt in 2 years time  A first for this nation, i mean those around for Chretien decade of darkness know that cuts hurt like crazy....and we did by know means reach 330 bil in 2 years.... Whats been stopping us from doing it before now and if it is this easy, why 1.4 trillion in debt ? I really hoping some one can fill in the blanks why not 660 bil in 4 years and i'll vote liberal all day long....yes i did say liberal...

 

Fiscal update sets up $100B more spending on economic stimulus, atop $381B deficit (msn.com)

Some good questions there. It would probably help if the Liberals would actually table a budget. So far 20 months and counting, and still no indication of when we can expect a real budget to be submitted.

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Great fiscal update by Trudeau government. Yes the size of deficit is large this year and next but much better than almost all other Western democracies and also well being and economic survival of nation is much more important than anything else right now. Canadians can remain confident that Trudeau government will have their safety and well being in mind when making decisions as compared to cut and burn policies of Conservatives.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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19 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They say they have a plan to spend about 481 billion, to counter the pandemic, OK , they even included time frames for pay back, which leads me to this question. How do they mange to pay down over 330 bil from 21 -23, where is the funds coming from, no mention of tax increases, no mention on which dept is going to get cut, so we are sort of left guessing how much is this going to hurt... My next question if we can pay back 330 bil of debt in 2 years time  A first for this nation, i mean those around for Chretien decade of darkness know that cuts hurt like crazy....and we did by know means reach 330 bil in 2 years.... Whats been stopping us from doing it before now and if it is this easy, why 1.4 trillion in debt ? I really hoping some one can fill in the blanks why not 660 bil in 4 years and i'll vote liberal all day long....yes i did say liberal...

 

Fiscal update sets up $100B more spending on economic stimulus, atop $381B deficit (msn.com)

I am no economist but basically a lot of ONE TIME expenses like hundreds of billions of dollars that Trudeau government is undertaking this year (like cerb or rental subsidies, etc.) to keep Canadians from sinking, losing their homes and bring food to their tables till this damn pandemic is over (likely by June or September) will disappear next fiscal year. Also the rapidly growing economy next year and years after (post-pandemic recovery as businesses open up and start paying taxes again and so will back to payroll employees) will bring back lost revenues which were lost this year due to massive business closures and lockdowns and generates new revenues. A combination of two will likely explains why the deficits drop so fast in just 2-3 years.

Edited by CITIZEN_2015
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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I am no economist but basically a lot of ONE TIME expenses like hundreds of billions of dollars that Trudeau government is undertaking this year (like cerb or rental subsidies, etc.) to keep Canadians from sinking, losing their homes and bring food to their tables till this damn pandemic is over (likely by June or September) will disappear next fiscal year. Also the rapidly growing economy next year and years after (post-pandemic recovery as businesses open up and start paying taxes again and so will back to payroll employees) will bring back lost revenues which were lost this year due to massive business closures and lockdowns and generates new revenues. A combination of two will likely explains why the deficits drop so fast in just 2-3 years.

If you think that Justin is our guy to pull us out of debt, read this.


 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/trudeau-sets-another-record-and-not-in-a-good-way


 

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has set another record—increasing the federal debt (per person) more than any other prime minister (not facing a world war or recession) since 1870.

He earlier set a spending record, as the Trudeau government has spent more money (per person) than any other prime minister in Canadian history. Rapid debt accumulation, accompanied by unprecedented levels of spending is simply not sustainable—and Canadians will be left to deal with the consequences.

Let’s take a closer look at some of Justin Trudeau’s historic achievements.

As noted in a new Fraser Institute study, Justin Trudeau has overseen the largest increase in federal debt (per person) of any prime minister who did not face a world war or recession during his or her tenure. Federal government debt has grown 5.6 per cent ($1,723 per person) over the last four years under the Trudeau government. And Ottawa’s total debt (technically referred to as gross debt) is expected to reach $1.2 trillion in 2019.

For comparison, consider that since the 19th century, every former Liberal prime minister who, like Justin Trudeau, did not experience world war of recession, reduced the federal per-person debt. Indeed, Lester B. Pearson reduced per-person debt by 6.7 per cent. So did Paul Martin (by 7.6 per cent) and Jean Chrétien (by a striking 13.3 per cent).

Clearly, Justin Trudeau is an outlier by choosing to increase the debt during relatively good economic times. In fact, some prime ministers including Arthur Meighen and Mackenzie King even reduced per-person debt despite experiencing an economic downturn.


 

Justin increased our public debt during times of relative prosperity, now you are counting on him to reduce it during these trying times. He obviously has no appetite for fiscal responsibility. Taking on debt to cover your spending is referred to as spending by borrowing. This seems to be Justin’s mantra.


 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7303230/canada-gdp-q2-2020/


 

The Canadian economy suffered its worst three-month stretch on record in the second quarter as the economy came to a near halt in April before starting to recover in May and June.

Statistics Canada said Friday real gross domestic product contracted at an annualized rate of 38.7 per cent for the quarter, the worst posting for the economy dating back to when comparable data was first recorded in 1961.


 

Trudeau says that his stimulus spending is only 3% of gdp (gross domestic product), this is pre crisis gdp of course. This becomes 4.89% of current gdp. This is clearly unsustainable.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/jack-m-mintz-canadas-debt-load-is-even-worse-than-you-think


 

Jack M. Mintz: Canada's debt load is even worse than you think

Add it all up and Canada’s debt burden is $3.2 trillion. That’s 166 per cent of GDP — fully four times the IMF forecast for 2020

Jack M. Mintz

 

Keep in mind that when Justin is giving us money, it is not his money, it is our money. If you think that you can get out of debt by borrowing, think again.

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4 minutes ago, oops said:

If you think that Justin is our guy to pull us out of debt, read this.


 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/trudeau-sets-another-record-and-not-in-a-good-way


 

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has set another record—increasing the federal debt (per person) more than any other prime minister (not facing a world war or recession) since 1870.

 

A lot of negativity in your post. These are unprecedented times the country and the whole world never seen before in 100 years. Canada is much better off compared to other countries, Add a little bit of positive facts to your post. like a close to 9% growth in GDP in third quarter released by StatCan today instead of what happened 6 months ago due to pandemic. Yes Justin has done much better than many other governments during pandemic by keeping Canadians from sinking.

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The taxes will be coming, along with program cuts, but not until AFTER the next election. The Liberals are spending a lot of money buying votes and want to hang onto them.

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I believe that we are experiencing fiscal irresponsibility that is unprecedented, if that brings a smile to your face, go with it. I believe that someone should be held accountable, hope that doesn't spoil your glass half full point of view. I believe that it is time to demand change, but you are welcome to burry your head in the sand and wait for the sun to shine. I believe that if you are on a raft about to go over a waterfall it is time to get off, but if splashing in the pretty white water is more to your liking, I hope that turns out well for you.

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3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Great fiscal update by Trudeau government. Yes the size of deficit is large this year and next but much better than almost all other Western democracies and also well being and economic survival of nation is much more important than anything else right now. Canadians can remain confident that Trudeau government will have their safety and well being in mind when making decisions as compared to cut and burn policies of Conservatives.

Yes it was nice of them to give us a update, and I'm glad you recognize the enormous size of this years spending, and our total deficit, The highest in all Canadian history , breaking records for spending 7 times more than any other Canadian Government, and almost doubling our national debt which has taken over 125 years to accumulate. 

And your right our well being and health should be priorities, but we went well beyond that, imagine tax payers saved a whooping 10 % more this year over last...

Quote

 

Real disposable income in this country rose by more than 10 per cent in the first half of the year, even as GDP fell by 13 per cent, because the government distributed around $56 billion in income replacement to cover just $23 billion in lost income. “Many people have substantially increased their savings…and household balance sheets are now in a better place than would normally be the case,” the statement says.

No kidding. That’s what happens when you miss your target by $33 billion.

 

John Ivison: After hitting us with $100B in targeted stimulus, will Freeland put us out of our misery? | National Post

Actually, accorded to the national post Canada has placed last tied with Japan in regards to the most spending on Covid-19 within the G-7.

It leaves me with doubts as to just how wonderful they are doing managing our money, one could say we overpaid CERB by over 100%. One questions what else did we over pay for... and it only gets better, now we are boosting that to 75 % of your last waged earned... boosting our bank accounts by 10% were not enough what is going to be the cost of all of that...  

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35 minutes ago, oops said:

I believe that we are experiencing fiscal irresponsibility that is unprecedented, if that brings a smile to your face, go with it. I believe that someone should be held accountable, hope that doesn't spoil your glass half full point of view. I believe that it is time to demand change,

So what you or any other Trudeau fiscal critic will do instead?. Just what is that you will change? Will you eliminate economic response plans? will you throw Canadians out in cold?, force businesses go bankrupt laying off employees, Will you let Canadian children whose parents lost their jobs due to pandemic to go hungry and the elderly and sick die because they can't pay for food and power or the poor to starve, You will do all that as an alternative to huge deficit? 

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2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I am no economist but basically a lot of ONE TIME expenses like hundreds of billions of dollars that Trudeau government is undertaking this year (like cerb or rental subsidies, etc.) to keep Canadians from sinking, losing their homes and bring food to their tables till this damn pandemic is over (likely by June or September) will disappear next fiscal year. Also the rapidly growing economy next year and years after (post-pandemic recovery as businesses open up and start paying taxes again and so will back to payroll employees) will bring back lost revenues which were lost this year due to massive business closures and lockdowns and generates new revenues. A combination of two will likely explains why the deficits drop so fast in just 2-3 years.

I'm lucky to balance my own affairs, but i do have enough education to know something does not smell right...since we have already covered the CERB payments and how much Canadian bank accounts grew, and i get it bravo for them to save when things get shitty, but i think you can see perhaps we went over board on this... And yes it has been scheduled to end in June, but i think that is a pipe dream, i mean i think we will be in an election cycle soon, and cutting benefits does not win any votes... ( my opinion) Many of those business are gone forever, they have lost ever thing in the pandemic. yes alot of them will reopen, but not in the same capacity, not even close, it going to take a while we all of us to get out and spend our savings..

Your explanation, while a good attempt, i think does not hit the mark ? leaving me still wondering how they are going to come up with all this funds ?, and why have we not done it before to wipe out our current deficit ? 

No mention in this update on what they are doing about making Canada self sufficient in producing our own medical machines, our own drug supply, not to mention who is making all our PPE, and how much have we invested inn those programs.

I know private long term homes are a provincial responsibility, but the PM did say they were going to ensure they received new ventilation systems, help or set up a training program for these nurses so we would have enough, Do you think 2 bil is going to be enough ? 

Nothing about how much are we investing in our Vaccine manufacturing capability or atleast to be able to produce the ones we are buying now... Kind of embarrassing that 3 rd world countries have this capability and a G-7 country does not.. 

And there has been alot of talk about creating 1 million jobs, but no new money to create jobs out west... building pipe lines, or investing in getting our resources to markets...

and one last point, what are we doing about china, what is the plan, they are after all responsible for this whole covid- 19  which has cost the world trillions upon trillions, have they closed the wet markets ? is their a plan to shift our manufacture capabilities to a new nation one that is friendlier, can be reasoned with diplomatically ... 

I get it your a liberal, but even you could relate to most of these items.

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

So what you or any other Trudeau fiscal critic will do instead?. Just what is that you will change? Will you eliminate economic response plans? will you throw Canadians out in cold?, force businesses go bankrupt laying off employees, Will you let Canadian children whose parents lost their jobs due to pandemic to go hungry and the elderly and sick die because they can't pay for food and power or the poor to starve, You will do all that as an alternative to huge deficit? 

I would have started before the crisis, reducing the debt in times of prosperity like former Prime Ministers did. I would have supported Canadian businesses, instead of encouraging my premiers to criminalize their operation. If my finance minister was Bill Morneau, whose background was executive chairman of Morneau Shepel a company trusted by several major pension funds to manage their portfolios, I would have listened when he told me that spending was wildly out of control. I would not refuse to take his phone calls, making his position untenable and forcing his resignation. I certainly in a time of crisis would not replace him with former journalist Christina Freespend (sorry that should read Freeland), who would support my every move without question.


 

I would not take money from one of the taxpayers pockets, put in another pocket, and tell them that I was Santa Claus.

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14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I'm lucky to balance my own affairs, but i do have enough education to know something does not smell right...since we have already covered the CERB payments and how much Canadian bank accounts grew, and i get it bravo for them to save when things get shitty, but i think you can see perhaps we went over board on this... And yes it has been scheduled to end in June, but i think that is a pipe dream, i mean i think we will be in an election cycle soon, and cutting benefits does not win any votes... ( my opinion) Many of those business are gone forever, they have lost ever thing in the pandemic. yes alot of them will reopen, but not in the same capacity, not even close, it going to take a while we all of us to get out and spend our savings..

Your explanation, while a good attempt, i think does not hit the mark ? leaving me still wondering how they are going to come up with all this funds ?, and why have we not done it before to wipe out our current deficit ? 

No mention in this update on what they are doing about making Canada self sufficient in producing our own medical machines, our own drug supply, not to mention who is making all our PPE, and how much have we invested inn those programs.

I know private long term homes are a provincial responsibility, but the PM did say they were going to ensure they received new ventilation systems, help or set up a training program for these nurses so we would have enough, Do you think 2 bil is going to be enough ? 

Nothing about how much are we investing in our Vaccine manufacturing capability or atleast to be able to produce the ones we are buying now... Kind of embarrassing that 3 rd world countries have this capability and a G-7 country does not.. 

And there has been alot of talk about creating 1 million jobs, but no new money to create jobs out west... building pipe lines, or investing in getting our resources to markets...

and one last point, what are we doing about china, what is the plan, they are after all responsible for this whole covid- 19  which has cost the world trillions upon trillions, have they closed the wet markets ? is their a plan to shift our manufacture capabilities to a new nation one that is friendlier, can be reasoned with diplomatically ... 

I get it your a liberal, but even you could relate to most of these items.

But you can do simple arithmetic's right? COVID-19 Economic Response Plan, which commits more than $200 billion to support Canadians and businesses through this difficult time. This cost will not be there after summer of 2021. Simply substract 381 from 200 and right away you see a figure close to what budget deficit is predicted for 2021-2022. Tens of billions will be also generated from rapid recovery post pandemic as businesses open up again and employment grows.

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

But you can do simple arithmetic's right? COVID-19 Economic Response Plan, which commits more than $200 billion to support Canadians and businesses through this difficult time. This cost will not be there after summer of 2021. Simply substract 381 from 200 and right away you see a figure close to what budget deficit is predicted for 2021-2022. Tens of billions will be also generated from rapid recovery post pandemic as businesses open up again and employment grows.

My simple math tells me that if you spend 381 billion, then spend another 200 billion, you don't subtract one from the other you actually have to add them together and arrive at 581 billion. This is  64% of the 900 billion debt Canada accumulated in the nation's first 153 years. I know that when our prime minister and his supporters are not worried about that, it makes me worry. As for a rapid recovery when businesses open up again, with unprecedented business failures, the recovery might not be as rapid as you anticipate. 

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3 hours ago, oops said:

My simple math tells me that if you spend 381 billion, then spend another 200 billion, you don't subtract one from the other you actually have to add them together and arrive at 581 billion. This is  64% of the 900 billion debt Canada accumulated in the nation's first 153 years. I know that when our prime minister and his supporters are not worried about that, it makes me worry. As for a rapid recovery when businesses open up again, with unprecedented business failures, the recovery might not be as rapid as you anticipate. 

I think you are purposely trying yo misrepresent numbers to advance your false case. It doesn't take a rocket scientist but a second grade high schooler to realize that the 381 billion deficit this year is created because (as part of it) of the 200+ billion one time spending to support those Canadians in need who may have lost their jobs because of pandemic or businesses to survive or renters not to become homeless and out in cold. You subtract this amount (the 200 billion) from 381 billion not add it, and you get what may be for next year as this expenditure will not be there.

Trudeau government cares for the well being and survival of Canadians in these unprecedented times unlike you and your conservatives friends in Parliament who only think of yourself.

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John Robson expresses his indignation with the 'fiscal update' and its fuzziness about facts and plans - or lack thereof.

Staring in disbelief works better onscreen than in print. So while I gather my thoughts on this “federal fiscal update,” I’ll pass the keyboard to the late Rudyard Kipling: “But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: ‘If you don’t work you die.’ ” It’s a reality thing.

Unlike the update. It offers much to dislike, not on substance but on lack of same. Especially the absolute, wilful disregard of the fact that wealth cannot be redistributed, even to the very worthy, if it is not first created.

The update is no longer on the treacherous ground of ignoring or concealing this point. It is in the void of not understanding it. People excoriated U.S. President Donald Trump’s disconnection from reality. But what has this update to do with anything?

OK, it clarifies that Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland was a trendy intellectual due to trendiness not intellectuality. She is as clueless as her boss, let alone their dizzy colleagues for whom $400 billion could be umpteen trillion and they’d smile that same smarmy smile and say, “See, we’re helping people. There is no debt in Ba Sing Se.”

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-robson-fiscal-update-shows-a-government-totally-divorced-from-reality

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4 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

But you can do simple arithmetic's right? COVID-19 Economic Response Plan, which commits more than $200 billion to support Canadians and businesses through this difficult time. This cost will not be there after summer of 2021. Simply substract 381 from 200 and right away you see a figure close to what budget deficit is predicted for 2021-2022. Tens of billions will be also generated from rapid recovery post pandemic as businesses open up again and employment grows.

I may not be the smartest guy in class, but i think my math is band on, and if i'm wrong may be someone can explain it to me.

Canada todate has spent 399 bil towards fighting covid and supporting Canadians. Note the quote below is money already spent and added to deficit, so we have already borrowed and spent that money.... 

Quote

The government will run a deficit of at least $381 billion, according to its estimates, but warns with a resurgence in the virus and escalated lock down measures, that number could grow to nearly $400 billion. Either way the astounding sum will be the highest relative to the economy since the Second World War.

The government has also planed to spend up to 100 BIL in kick starting the economy .... So money not yet spent and to be counted when it is...

Quote

In subsequent years, the government is predicting ongoing deficits with the country expected to be at least $121 billion in the red next year and $24 billion in deficit five years from now.

Fiscal update sets up $100B more spending on economic stimulus, atop $381B deficit | National Post

And I have misunderstood this quote, ( my BAD) it is actual telling us that we are going to add another 121 bil fighting Covid, and cranking up the economy next year, and in 2022 will spend an average of 24 billion doing the same thing... 

Now please understand i went to school in NB, and not some fancy school in Toronto, Victoria, or Montreal.. but according to NB math over the next 3 years we will have spent 645 billion est or more because the liberals have always been way off in their projected spending.... "So we are not paying anything off but continuing to add to it"... So we ADD not subtract.... Just saying....You can do simple math right ?

So far our current social programs have costed 29 billion more this year, and we have not added next years or the following years estimates.

 

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9 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I may not be the smartest guy in class, but i think my math is band on, and if i'm wrong may be someone can explain it to me.

Canada todate has spent 399 bil towards fighting covid and supporting Canadians. Note the quote below is money already spent and added to deficit, so we have already borrowed and spent that money.... 

The government has also planed to spend up to 100 BIL in kick starting the economy .... So money not yet spent and to be counted when it is...

 

 

Oh God, I thought it was 200 billion now you say it is twice as much!!!!. Well next year it won't be this kets take the middle number of 300 billion but 100 or 121 billion so please do the maths to see why next year's deficit will be so much lower. 

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

I think you are purposely trying yo misrepresent numbers to advance your false case. It doesn't take a rocket scientist but a second grade high schooler to realize that the 381 billion deficit this year is created because (as part of it) of the 200+ billion one time spending to support those Canadians in need who may have lost their jobs because of pandemic or businesses to survive or renters not to become homeless and out in cold. You subtract this amount (the 200 billion) from 381 billion not add it, and you get what may be for next year as this expenditure will not be there.

Trudeau government cares for the well being and survival of Canadians in these unprecedented times unlike you and your conservatives friends in Parliament who only think of yourself.

The governments blame the virus for Canadians in need who may have lost their jobs because of pandemic, businesses unable to survive and, renters in danger of becoming homeless and out in cold. I blame the government.

 

You believe that Justin is doing a good job. You might want to look at this.

 

Before the pandemic, the combined federal and provincial Canadian debt totalled $1.4 trillion. And since then, this debt has rapidly grown, with governments borrowing another $300 billion in the current year alone. This debt will be mostly repaid by our children, their children and their children’s children.

This raises a moral matter of how we are treating our young and future Canadians. Is it ethical for governments to increase spending by placing greater debts on future generations?

Isn’t contractually placing our children into a monetary form of debt bondage morally indefensible? And how might we objectively judge government borrowing policies to ensure justice for future generations?

The taxpayers federation’s debt clock tells us that the federal that the federal debt is currently $948 billion. It is according to them rising by $940 thousand per day.  Being a leap year that makes a total of $344 million for the year. If that seems like we are headed in the right direction, you might want to see if you are in forward or reverse.

https://www.debtclock.ca/

Edited by oops
correcting errant information
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4 minutes ago, oops said:

The governments blame the virus for Canadians in need who may have lost their jobs because of pandemic, businesses unable to survive and, renters in danger of becoming homeless and out in cold. I blame the government.

 

This post goes into the heart of your credibility. 

Again i am asking you. How many millions of Canadians will you throw out in cold or let their children go hungry and which respond programs to help Canadians will you end so that to bring 381 billion deficit to zero? Remember last year's deficit was 30 -35 billion so even if you had started with zero deficit then you needed to cut programs aiding Canadians in need by 350 billions.

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6 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Oh God, I thought it was 200 billion now you say it is twice as much!!!!. Well next year it won't be this kets take the middle number of 300 billion but 100 or 121 billion so please do the maths to see why next year's deficit will be so much lower. 

I'm not saying anything about these are figures they were released by the liberals in the update , they estimate this years deficit will be 399 bil.... That is money already borrowed and spent....And "added" to the deficit.... Now here is the tricky part the Liberals have planed to borrow and spend an additional 100 bil on kick starting the economy .... This is going to happen in 2021, plus they have predicted they will borrow and spend another 121 billion.... When we borrow money and spend it we owe it to the bank, to find out the balance we add numbers not subtract for the total balance... the balance does not go down until you pay them...which is then subtracted from the total balance......

 

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