The case for a mandatory tracking app

[eyeball]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

It could also make stalking you by some sob easier to and therein lies the point. This assumption technology will be only used positively is the issue.

It could just as easily make it harder to stalk you if you can see the stalkers on your app.  Why are you assuming you won't be able to use this technology to protect yourself?  

[Rue]

7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Agreed.  There are some countries in the world where I could understand a certain amount of paranoia, but ours isn't one of them.

Canada's government has a history of having abused its citizens. You choose not to see what we evolved past. You choose to ignore our history. You just assume Canada is the bubble of your reality and always has been. You speak this way because you were never put on a reservation, placed in a camp during Ww2, have been wrongfully arrested because of your skin color, on and on. I am the first to argue Canada today is a great country with freedoms. I am also the first to argue it wasn't always and to evolve as it is required we learn about the mistakes of too much government power both in our country and other countries that our soldiers had to go fight against to stop their abuse of power.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Rue

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Without a doubt the most moronic thread on the board in a while. Please continue. Not one of you state totalitarians have provided anything but your subjective desire  to control all of us because you believe a virus justifies it.  You show a complete ignorance of history and how easy it us for some of you to turn into dickhead fascists without a damn thought given to the implications of your trite comments.

Imagine a Jew deciding to compare people wanting a phone app to track sick people with fascism.

I think you've just totally discredited anything you have to say on this subject, Rue. If you're so terrified the government might learn where you buy your Shawarma you're willing to risk dieing for it, or risk the death of others near you, then go for it. It's a moronic position to start with, and even worse when you realize and acknowledge the government is fully capable of tracking your phone now anyway if it so desires and that private agencies track your phone 24/7 anyway.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Argus

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Rue said:

Morecsmug bullshit assuming surveillance and tagging by the state is only going to be used in the way you assumevit will be used. Of course anything that does not fit in your prescribed bubble of reality is insane to you. You never had a tattoo burned into you. You are born in a reality you give no consideration to..you just assume it..you have no clue who died so you can now welcome undoing what they fought so hard to get you.

I don't assume it's only going to be used in the way I assume it will be.  I just assume it won't be used in the way you assume it will be.

I find it passing strange you assume you know what people died for, too.

[Argus]

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

Excuse me you started a thread claiming you are going to make a case for state surveillance of everyone then never did.

Tracking your phone does not equate to state surveillance. The state is not listening to your phone calls or your private conversations or monitoring what you do.

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

Now you ask me to explain to you why there is no concern about the state having total authority over me?

Do you imagine Google or Apple have total authority over you now given they track your whereabouts?

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

Lol. Argus you come on the board, make a sweeping statement asking  for a totalitarian state control over people and you now ask me to spell out what the problem is?

Based on the above I would assume your problem is early senility.

54 minutes ago, Rue said:

What I would love to do at this point is stick a loaded weapon in your face and ask you to explain to me why that is a dangerous thing to do. I can't. So I will walk away. You can be a smug bastard Argus.  Good people died to prevent what you ask for.

Jesus, what a hysterical old woman you can be. Go hide in your tinfoil hut, Rue, and turn off all electronic devices so the government doesn't find out when you have a bowel movement.

Mind you, this post of yours comes close to qualifying as one.

[Argus]

50 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Not good enough....make the case in legislative process and constitutional frameworks.

No one pays attention to constitutions anyway. Your government certainly doesn't.

[Rue]

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It could just as easily make it harder to stalk you if you can see the stalkers on your app.  Why are you assuming you won't be able to use this technology to protect yourself?  

I have argued it can be used for as much evil as it can good and so we must not assume it will only be used for good. You answer with a yah..it can be be used to combat evil missing the point that the very reason if can be used to combat evil will also enable it to combat good. 

Its easy to welcome power over you...but  once it's there and used for another reason you do not like what makes you think you can remove it as easily? 

You assume the positive will outweigh the good and its defeatist to think otherwise. I have argued your assumption evil is always defeated is illogical and based on a subjective assumption . I argue history has shown us as well ad objective methodology that and in our reality, is that for every action  is a counter-action .

This is why I would argue for the smecreadon, the assumption artificial intelligence will only be used for good is illogical not to mention naive.

What you argue is me being defeatist is me arguing that you are not being realistic or logical and choose only to see what you want to see, not what may end up being.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Argus said:

No one pays attention to constitutions anyway. Your government certainly doesn't.

 

Really ?    We still have our guns.

[Argus]

47 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

"A defeatist attitude?" Is that what you call it? I call it paying attention to the lessons history tries to teach us.

Then you should realize that government surveillance of the public looking for political enemies has never been the leading edge of authoritarian government. Never. It follows all other measure such as the removal of a free press, the ending of voting rights which allow the population to remove a government in power, the suspension of civil liberties like freedom of speech, religion and the press. It comes from a government which identifies enemies of the state (which are the enemies of the party).

And all of you protesting that such an app would be an unprecedented intrusion into our privacy have been willing to address the fact many private organizations already track everywhere you go, everything you buy, and everything you watch on TV or the internet. Or the fact all that data is almost certainly widely accessible by an unprincipled government agency. Which you somehow believe this one to be. Apply logic. If the government is a would-be tyranny eager for such data why would it not simply access it from all the private sector agencies which already have it?

[eyeball]

Quote

Test, trace, and isolate” is the three-legged stool of South Korean public-health policy. But what keeps the stool upright is the shared confidence between the government and the public. “A delicate balance of trust … drives the entire thing,” the writer Yung in Chae told me.

People trust the government in part because it works to keep raw politics out of public health. South Korea’s Ministry of Health has for months held daily briefings to update the public and convey best practices, such as social distancing and hand-washing. “These briefings are held by scientists, not politicians,”

South Korea’s world-class response to COVID-19 is not the product of religion, or cultural destiny, but rather the result of diseases bested and crises weathered. Unlike the biological response to a pathogen, public policy is not an automatic response, but a deliberate one. South Korea chose to learn. The United States entered this pandemic discombobulated, blundering, and hamstrung by our lack of readiness. Neither history nor contagion will wait for us to catch up. That is the bad news. The good news is that history will go on. And we still have time to learn from it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/whats-south-koreas-secret/611215/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

 

Mutual public/official trust is the key and unfortunately that's something that our politics has basically demolished.

I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face that the fastest cure for this distrust is to outlaw in-camera lobbying.

[Rue]

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

Imagine a Jew deciding to compare people wanting a phone app to track sick people with fascism.

I think you've just totally discredited anything you have to say on this subject, Rue. If you're so terrified the government might learn where you buy your Shawarma you're willing to risk dieing for it, or risk the death of others near you, then go for it. It's a moronic position to start with, and even worse when you realize and acknowledge the government is fully capable of tracking your phone now anyway if it so desires and that private agencies track your phone 24/7 anyway.

Imagine you not understanding that precisely because my relatives lived in terror and were surveilled and were, controlled, tattooed and systematically exterminated using the same principles you now argue, you can not understand it but choose to ridicule it.

Jews were defined as a disease. We were surveilled, tracked  and disposed of as a virus. What do you not get Argus?  Because you have never been the subject of state abuse you dismiss it happening to others? Do you not know one person who came to Canada from totalitarian states seeking basic freedoms you now smugly dismiss? 

You choose to ridicule the possibility that what you so smuggly ask for has no potential to be used in any way other than what you find acceptable ?

Then you argue since people are having their privacy illegally abused to manipulate what products they buy it's ok? So if someone rapes me and can get away with it its ok if its widespread  behaviour?  Because domestic violence is so widespread it's ok? 

If I get arrested and abused by the police it's ok? If someone obtains evidence illegally it's ok..because such things happen? In your world as long as something abusive happens and t is widespread it becomes ok?

You speak from a bubble of subjective elitist assumption. You take for granted the freedoms you want curtailed because you never lived in a communist state, a fascist state, a military dictatorship, a religious theocracy.

You have never been the subject of state persecution and so dismiss it as a possibility and experience others have lived through. You choose to be smug and reject any possibility  other than the one you preordain.

What you do not know thd number of mentally ill or physically disabled  Hitlef disposed of and what he did to track their illnesses down? Your brain can not see any warning from that abuse in the name of protecting society?

In my world governments can and have abused their powers over individuals and must be held openly checked and balanced.  In my world where I had state power to surveille, search andl cease, detain and convict people I witnessed first hand how the state  can abuse such powers and in fact in most cases rationalize that abuse  of powerdone with the intent to protect the public not abuse them.

In my world anyone with too much power over others has at least equal if not more potential to do harm not good.in my world at the ed both and substance of a relationship between doctor and patient must be confidence that even the state must not violate otherwise patients fearing persecution will not report and treat causing far more harm than the state claiming to protect violating that confidence.

You have given zero thought to the topic. If we track disease what you fail to understand is people will not cooperate if they fear bring abused and the vast majority of doctors do not approve of forcing themselves on anyone without informed consent of the patient.

No you can not force people go have a vaccine...its impractical. You need to convince them without fear. You use the word mandatory  like a racist Jack hammer. Doctors prefer the concept informed consent.

Soth Korea's system is not forced on people. They choose to vote.untatily get checked. Their concept of early testing is based on a different concept of collective identity than ours because of a much larger population and different political history but South Korea is not North Korea. It doesn't force its people to get tested.

In Canada the vast majority of us will voluntarily get tested but it must be done with protections in place to protect doctor patient confidentiality and anonymity. We already a working model with aids, sexually transmitted diseases and colon cancer.

How about you go look at what was done before you make sweeping statements about mandatory testing.

Yah maybe someone does need to burn a tattoo on you to get you to stop and think.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

It is not surprising that this app tracking idea emanates from a New Zealand perspective, where guns were so quickly confiscated, and would find fertile ground in complacent Canada.    Never mind that the hardware and platforms are of foreign origin and control.

Example:  The RCMP failed miserably by using Twitter for public safety notification for a live shooter.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Apply logic. If the government is a would-be tyranny eager for such data why would it not simply access it from all the private sector agencies which already have it?

Further to that wouldn't we already have had bar-codes tattooed onto our foreheads by now?  According to many if not most at one point or another we've been living in a dictatorship for decades already.

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Really ?    We still have our guns.

As do we. So? Don't give me any crap about you or your government caring about constitutions. We've talked about this in the past. The reason so many people support Trump is because his administration has been determinedly stacking the courts with obedient yes-men who will rule however they want them to rule. Your constitution can be interpreted to allow slavery, as it was in the past, and to allow rounding up innocent people and shoving them into camps, as it was in the past. All you need is the right kind of interpreters. It's "unconstitutional" to bar women from having abortions. Rather than try to change the constitution the legal way, because you guys know you don't have anything like the support of the people, you want to stack the court so you can change it that way. That's why religious fanatics support a godless sinner like Trump. So what good is your vaunted constitution in the end? Put the right guys up there and suddenly slavery is constitutional again and abortion isn't.

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

Imagine you not understanding that precisely because my relatives lived in terror and were surveilled and were, controlled, tattooed and systematically exterminated using the same principles you now argue, you can not understand it but choose to ridicule it.

And did the persecution of Jews start with some innocuous out-of-the-blue govenrment surveillance mechanism? Of course not! The attitude of the Nazis was clearly known well before they got elected. Their persecution of Jews afterward should certainly have come as no surprise. It is only when you put in place people like that you need to worry about government surveillance afterward. And for all my contempt for Trudeau and his ilk I don't see them authorizing some kind of Orwellian surveillance system, much less acting on it.

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

 Do you not know one person who came to Canada from totalitarian states seeking basic freedoms you know smugly dismiss?

I know what 'basic freedoms' are. You apparently don't.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

As do we. So? Don't give me any crap about you or your government caring about constitutions.

 

Governments may not care, but many citizens do.   If sheep of your ilk are happy to comply with a tracking app, it doesn't mean that all others shall be equally compliant.    Your government is ready to take your guns and there is nothing you can/will do about it.

 

[Rue]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Really ?    We still have our guns.

You would also never have in the US people arguing state control over individual rights as you now read on this board. Therein is a difference between Canadians and Americans..we trust statd control, you Americznx distrust it...and on that note.. I take the American activist civil libertarian approach to state surveillance. 

I can tell you the average Canadian likes state control and regulation. 

We want to be told stay at home. 

We want the government to tell us what go do. Our leader asks for more power while Trump says relax, stop asking me to tell you what to do. Trump's laissez faire approach to imposing state power is seen by Canadians as him not caring. I actually am amazed how he has publically refused go cater to fear mongers and impose a police state. 

 

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Governments may not care, but many citizens do.  

And many don't. The Republican base is salivating at the prospect of getting those courts stacked so they can make the laws what the base want them to be without going through elections or constitutional amendments or passing them through congress. The base loves it when Trump ignores the constitution and tells everyone to go to hell. So yeah, many citizens care about the constitution. But they're not in the Republican Party. If any country is in danger of descending into lawless authoritarianism it is yours. Trump refers to the media as enemies of the people and his lackeys are already taking over the Justice Department to ensure the only laws which get enforced are the ones they like. Against people they don't.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Argus

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

You would also never have in the US people arguing state control over individual rights as you now read on this board. Therein is a difference between Canadians and Americans..we trust statd control, you Americznx distrust it...and on that note.. I take the American activist civil libertarian approach to state surveillance.

 

I think that is true...such a tracking app finds fertile ground in the minds of many, but not all Canadians.

Census data was used to round up Japanese-Canadians and residents for WW2 internment and property seizures.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

And many don't. The Republican base is salivating at the prospect of getting those courts stacked so they can make the laws what the base want them to be without going through elections or constitutional amendments or passing them through congress. The base loves it when Trump ignores the constitution and tells everyone to go to hell. So yeah, many citizens care about the constitution. But they're not in the Republican Party. If any country is in danger of descending into lawless authoritarianism it is yours. Trump refers to the media as enemies of the people and his lackeys are already taking over the Justice Department to ensure the only laws which get enforced are the ones they like. Against people they don't.

 

 

You have already doomed your own argument....compliance...even in Canada.

Sometimes there just isn't "an app for that".

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Really ?    We still have our guns.

Pfffft, everyone in Iraq still had guns during Saddam Hussein's dictatorship too.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, eyeball said:

Pfffft, everyone in Iraq still had guns during Saddam Hussein's dictatorship too.

 

Good for them....the Iraqis didn't need no steenkin' tracking app.

[-1=e^ipi]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

You're talking about island states which can more easily isolate themselves from travel. Also, Jonathan Kay did a thing on this where he points out that even those countries which are spoken of as having not imposed mandatory lockdowns actually have lockdowns which are self-imposed by the people themselves. Sweden's government didn't impose a mandatory lockdown, but Swedes themselves stopped going out anyway.

It's odd to highlight New Zealand as justification for the lockdown due to their low death rate of COVID19, but then criticize the comparisons with Taiwan and Australia as "island states". Australia is a continent, not and island. Also, I guess New Zealand isn't an island state...

 

Australia and Taiwan both are closer to China. Australia has lots of travel and trade with China, is a developed country with similar population, population density, number of large urban centres, and immigration as Canada. Taiwan in particular has far more travel with Mainland China, specifically with Wuhan, than Canada. Dismissing their much lower death rates as the result of being "island states" I think dismisses the main reasons why their results are so much better than Canada's. And the reason isn't due to Canada's lockdown.

Edited May 10, 2020 by -1=e^ipi

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

If sheep of your ilk are happy to comply with a tracking app, it doesn't mean that all others shall be equally compliant.

No but the compliant, especially in vulnerable populations, will need to know how many non-compliant people are in their vicinity so they can make informed decisions about the relative risks of going into a mall for example...telecoms can provide information on how many phones are in the mall, apps can inform you of the number of active vs inactive phones/trace apps there are and CCT should be able to match the number of people to phones and give me a risk factor to guide my decision to enter the mall or pass.  

Edited May 10, 2020 by eyeball

[-TSS-]

It's a cry wolf-thing. When people have been lied to many enough times they won't recognize when they are told the truth.