What can the West do to help Iranians?

[marcus]

Iran's Green Movement was one of the first times the world was able to receive unfiltered information coming out of a country being oppressed and brutalized by the government. This was all due to internet. We saw something similar during the Arab Spring . 

- The West should start with providing internet through satellite to bypass the Iranian government's control over internet.
- There are thousands of family members of the Iranian government living in the U.S., Canada, Europe and Australia. They need to increase and pinpoint sanctions against the corrupt Iranian officials and their families and the hundreds of companies they own outside of Iran

[Right To Left]

1 hour ago, marcus said:

Iran's Green Movement was one of the first times the world was able to receive unfiltered information coming out of a country being oppressed and brutalized by the government. This was all due to internet. We saw something similar during the Arab Spring . 

- The West should start with providing internet through satellite to bypass the Iranian government's control over internet.
- There are thousands of family members of the Iranian government living in the U.S., Canada, Europe and Australia. They need to increase and pinpoint sanctions against the corrupt Iranian officials and their families and the hundreds of companies they own outside of Iran

How about if we improve freedom here by demanding an end to the internet monopolies: Google, Facebook, and Twitter, which have taken it upon themselves to "protect us" from "fake" news! 

If these services cannot function effectively if broken up into smaller, competing companies, then the monopolies should be public and have a board of governors which have to publish clear reasons why a user should be banned or have their accounts suspended. AND 'shadow-banning' and all of the bullshit games being played to push down certain sources in searches or removing pages without notice or stated reason (Facebook) should be considered unjustified interference with the free flow of information. 

And let's have sanctions over here against our corrupt government officials....some of them identified as Wikileaks published cables and emails delivered to them by whistleblowers tired of the corruption in their workplaces. 

And after we fix our corrupt corporate-serving government officials and guarantee our access to trustworthy information, then we can focus more attention on helping the Iranians!

[Dougie93]

Due to the history of Western interference, any perception of Westerners sticking their noses in favors the regime.

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Iran nation have been frequently suppressed sometimes brutally by the Islamic regime past 40 years. This includes using live ammunition against peaceful demonstrates wh are merely asking for the basic human rights, or being arrested overnight in their homes taken to prison and tortured for simply expressing their views on social media or even killed in prisons r disappeared for good, or being beaten on streets for refusing to wear the imposed hated hijab, being attacked and beaten on streets for no reason at all in order to create fear and intimidation and likely the only regime who goes after the families of those who oppose them even though the families have absolutely nothing to do with it. t is claimed that in the summer of 1989 some 30,000 young people were executed. They shoot innocent people they don't allow burial by their families or ask for payment in order to release the bodies. There is no freedom of any kind and the slightest opposition is responded with absolute brutality. Execution of minors, oppression of minorities and majorities.

It is not only the Iran nation in danger of their regime and even not the entire middle east in danger but the whole world is in danger because of this regime and their hate towards everyone as they are rapidly developing their nuclear technology and their space programs. The entire middle east is on fire because of THEIR actions and soon the whole world will be on fire too. The West waited too long to stand against Nazi Germany and 50 millions died. This time billions will die if they wait too long. 

The West can support the opposition groups in particular the popular Crown Prince son of the late Shah. Iran nation now appreciates the freedom they enjoyed under the Shah and the rapid progress they made and golden economy they had during his father Reza Shah the great and his son.

The West must totally block regime's oil export since the oil money pays the regime thugs  The West must include human rights violations as part of the conditions for removing the sanctions

The West must pressure the regime in any possible manner and in every occasion to end its brutality against defenseless nation.

The West should help to replace the internet as every time there is protests they shut down the internet to make people blind and unable t communicate. With internet shut down the extend of their brutality remains hidden.

Europe must stop prostituting themselves to mullahs and form a coalition with US against the brutal regime. Russians and Chinese regimes are dictatorships and born prostitutes but it is not expected of European democracies to trade or negotiate with brutal regimes.

Edited November 22, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[kactus]

10 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Due to the history of Western interference, any perception of Westerners sticking their noses in favors the regime.

 

It is exactly for that reason that the West should ‘stick their nose in Iranian affair but this time in favour of disgruntled Iranian people and not the regime.

 

It is very disappointing there is very little coverage in the news about the brutality of this regime using live rifles killing hundreds of dissidents. The only country that has shown disapproval of the brutality of this regime has been Sweden.

 

 

[Dougie93]

30 minutes ago, kactus said:

It is exactly for that reason that the West should ‘stick their nose in Iranian affair but this time in favour of disgruntled Iranian people and not the regime.

But they are not a monolith.

There's an urban-rural divide in Iran, just like there is here, the westernized liberals are not the majority, and they only live in the cities.

In the countryside is where the conservatives are, and they are with the regime.

Tehran will put this revolt down, the Revolutionary Guard and Basij will crush them in the end, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

[CITIZEN_2015]

8 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

But they are not a monolith.

There's an urban-rural divide in Iran, just like there is here, the westernized liberals are not the majority, and they only live in the cities.

In the countryside is where the conservatives are, and they are with the regime.

Tehran will put this revolt down, the Revolutionary Guard and Basij will crush them in the end, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

This is not true. Iranian society is very advanced with literacy rate of over 95% and millions of university students and many millions more with advanced degrees all over the country including towns and cities. Industrial base is advanced too as why sanctions has not worked yet as they export lots of industrial goods to neighboring countries. It is not an oil based country like Saudi Arabia.

This uprising against the regime for example was mainly from towns and small cities among the poor Not from the middle class or limited to the capital or large cities. I think you have an incorrect view about Iran as you see it in middle east and think like what you said in your post is incorrect. Iran society is non-religious and advance thinking and half a century of progressive Pahlavi dynasty (God bless Reza Shah the great) did the job well. That is why these Arab culture loving mullahs will not be able to set the time back and will be overthrown. The question is when. Before they totally destroy the country and civil war and break out in the country or after.

But you are correct in your post. These paid thugs stop short of nothing to protect their interests. Crack down has been very severe and casualties very high. For each casualty more will rise up. Their families and friends.

Doctors reported that hospitals were overfilled with people injured in the protests. They also said the Health Ministry had ordered all hospitals in Tehran and other cities to cancel elective surgeries because of the influx of emergency cases.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/21/world/middleeast/iran-protests-internet.html

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

17 hours ago, Right To Left said:

How about if we improve freedom here by demanding an end to the internet monopolies: Google, Facebook, and Twitter, which have taken it upon themselves to "protect us" from "fake" news! 

People, esp on the Left, were complaining about them not stopping fake news. Now you're complaining about them trying to stop fake news?

17 hours ago, Right To Left said:

If these services cannot function effectively if broken up into smaller, competing companies, then the monopolies should be public and have a board of governors which have to publish clear reasons why a user should be banned or have their accounts suspended.

These are privately created and owned institutions with hundreds of millions of interactions with people every day. The accounts, btw, are free. What rights do people with free accounts have to demand anything from anyone?

17 hours ago, Right To Left said:

And let's have sanctions over here against our corrupt government officials..

I'm all for punishing Trudeau, and demanding the information he has hidden be made available to the RCMP.

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Sanctions are a blunt instrument that tend to affect ordinary people far more than the government one is targeting, and encouraging the populace to rise up will get a lot of them killed. Like China, Iran is an ancient state that has known authoritarian rule for thousands of years. Those habits will not be changed by foreigners. Reform will probably take decades and the ruling elite will have to die off first. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Atrocities by Iran islamic regime against its own people even Nazi Germany did not commit.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/iran-protest-crackdown-leadership

from the first day, and from the second day, the regime's forces began shooting directly at us," activist Arash, 25, a university graduate from the city of Behbehan told Fox News. "Two of my friends were slain next to me. One of my acquaintances is a nurse. She told me not to bring the wounded and the martyrs to her hospital since the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had dispatched forces there to take away the wounded."

Government forces have unleashed bullets from rooftops and helicopters, according to Amnesty International. Other demonstrators have decried the police violence and vowed that those seized are being subjected to heinous forms of torture behind bars.

It was on the second day that the IRGC attacked us. They were accompanied by the para-military Bassij Forces. They were ruthlessly killing people," recalled Hassan, 52, an automobile mechanic from the city of Mahshahr. "They even brought in helicopters and over the past couple of days, have brought in buses and put those arrested into them. But people's morale is still high, and they are not backing down from their demands."

Moreover, Parvin, 32, a teacher from Shiraz, underscored that the regime is demanding upwards of $2,500 to release a corpse, and that "there are so many wounded they can't be counted."

“The regime is afraid. The Islamic Republic is now trying to drown out Iranian protestors by attempting to create, or perhaps even bribe or coerce into being, pro-regime demonstrations as a show of victory,” said FDD’s Senior Fellow Behnam Ben Taleblu. “This, of course, is a sham, but is one way the regime is trying to re-establish revolutionary credibility and feign that it remains popular when that is less true than ever before.”

And in the face of continued bloodshed, Iranians on the ground have pledged to keep fighting."Our spirit is high. Something very remarkable for me is that the spirit of cooperation and help has intensified remarkably," Parvin added.

Iranian officials 'stealing bodies' from morgues to hide true scale of government crackdown

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/23/iranian-masks-spiraling-protest-death-toll-stealing-bodies-morgues/

The West (the US, EU, UN Canada) must block regime's oil sale completely, cut them off totally financially, put political pressure on the regime and condemn violence and killings in the UN, support the opposition groups, support Iran nation, block regime export of goods and sanctions any firm in particular the European, Russian and Chinese firms who deal with Iran.

Edited November 23, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Right To Left]

On 11/21/2019 at 7:17 PM, Argus said:

People, esp on the Left, were complaining about them not stopping fake news. Now you're complaining about them trying to stop fake news?

These are privately created and owned institutions with hundreds of millions of interactions with people every day. The accounts, btw, are free. What rights do people with free accounts have to demand anything from anyone?

I'm all for punishing Trudeau, and demanding the information he has hidden be made available to the RCMP.

 

I make a distinction between Real and Fake/virtue-signalling Left.  And what pundits try to drum into our heads as The Left, are mostly amoral, corporate-owned and bought political parties here (Liberals) and the Democrats in the US, which focus most of their attention on social and identity issues and NOT on economic issues, because they are well aware they serve the tiny  minority of monied elites who have designed modern neoliberal capitalism to serve their ambitions for amassing more wealth and ensuring their continued success by controlling media and politics.

Every time there is even a modest and tepid introduction of economic redistribution, like Bernie's new new deal, they go into hysterics and start having bad dreams about unruly mobs and being marched off to the guillotines........just for being the job creators. And that's before we factor in the reactions of the military- war-for-profit capitalists who represent a range of interests, but all conclude that the only worthwhile profitable ventures today are the economic disruption created by bombing and invading a list of pre-chosen targets, where it's more profitable to leave the aftermath of regime change wars permanently ungovernable wastelands, while the expected refugee migrations from these zones will be dealt with with walls, refugee camps, and looking the other way on "illegal" slave labor suppressing wages at home.........................did anyone mention ICE, the talk of building The Wall, migrant detention (prison) camps, or even the worst aspects - separating young children from their families? Or has that all been forgotten now as the news cycle is Trump, Trump, Trump, Putin, Trump, Trump, Trump, Putin!  The issue that so many Americans are paying attention to today..................... Poll: Americans Don’t Give A Hoot About So-Called Russian Collusion   Has anything changed since last year? 

2. I don't know if these laws are different in the US than Canada, but under Canadian law, shopping malls are considered public spaces under many circumstances. They cannot discriminate against people entering their privately owned premises for any personal reasons that would not also apply to a city-owned public square or space. So, off the top, the foundation of your defense of capitalists being allowed to do whatever they want with their PROPERTY is weak. Because if the US has changed its laws and courts enough to promote capitalist rule, there is a very large public out there who (except for us non-compliant types) feel they have no choice other than using Facebook or Google services, or even shopping on Amazon. And don't appreciate the extortion and seizure of private data to sell to others who want to squeeze more money out of them also. 

Besides all that, these "privately created and owned institutions " all began with a GOVERNMENT CREATED internet that allowed them to flourish and unlike the past, failed to reign in the computer/internet monopolists as they worked on their strategies to eliminate the competition in their respective niches. This is a usual progression and a flaw in Adam Smith's logic that Karl Marx identified 150 years ago: left to their own devices, capitalists will institute complete control of a market 

[Right To Left]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:35 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Sanctions are a blunt instrument that tend to affect ordinary people far more than the government one is targeting, and encouraging the populace to rise up will get a lot of them killed. Like China, Iran is an ancient state that has known authoritarian rule for thousands of years. Those habits will not be changed by foreigners. Reform will probably take decades and the ruling elite will have to die off first. 

If a targeted state has a small, foreign capital-dependent economy, like Yemen or Iran to a lesser extent, sanctions are the equivalent to siege warfare; since in the old days of castle walls and moats, the lords and military officers would have the last food reserves in case of being trapped inside during a long siege. The women and children would be the first to starve from lack of food. So what is the difference when it's an army surrounding a fortification, or trade and banking embargoes? 

When asked on US television if she [Madeline Albright, US Secretary of State] thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children [from sanctions in Iraq] was a price worth paying, Albright replied: This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it.

If only Albright could have been put on that diet!  

When it comes to large nations, sanctions warfare is less effective and in the case of Russia, appears to be completely ineffective as Russia's economy has grown faster since Obama first imposed sanctions in 2014. Russia still is a large, resource-rich country and Obama/Trump sanctions only kickstarted a nationalist drive to focus on domestic production and cut imports....which has hurt Europe, especially Poland and Germany much more than Russia.  

At first, Germany was supposed to scrap the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline project, and Russia just went east and refocused on the expanding Chinese market. Restarting Nordstream 2 has meant that the Eurozone has had to pick up a greater share of the construction and development costs than they started with. 

Right now, it looks like economic stagnation and supply shortages of medicines are the only major effects of sanctions on Iran. This may raise some instability as seen in recent riots in several cities, but it's unlikely that the US/Israel is going to be able to overthrow the theocratic government by this alone. And it sure as hell is NOT helping common Iranians! It's only useful for Neocon warmongers and their paid media trolls who need a new war to boost their rationgs!

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, Right To Left said:

Right now, it looks like economic stagnation and supply shortages of medicines are the only major effects of sanctions on Iran. This may raise some instability as seen in recent riots in several cities, but it's unlikely that the US/Israel is going to be able to overthrow the theocratic government by this alone. And it sure as hell is NOT helping common Iranians! It's only useful for Neocon warmongers and their paid media trolls who need a new war to boost their rationgs!

Not just Iranians but the whole world will be affected so WAKE UP.

Sanctions not tight enough on Iran. They still export 500,000 barrels a day not to mention they also export lots of industrial goods to neighbors and import as well. It has to be brought down to zero export by all means including naval blockage if the west is serious. EU has to stop dealing with this violent non-reformable regime getting the facts in their thick heads that this regime is violent by nature and is non-reformable and a danger to the whole world not just middle east. DO not repeat the mistake West made in the 30's hoping that if they can get along with Hitler then they can avoid war. War is inevitable with Iran the question is when. Now which will be less damaging to the world or next decade which will means billions may die.

If you think Iran regime is too far away and will not affect you personally then think again. The suffering in the hands of Hitler was not limited to Germans and the sufferings in the hands of mullahs will not be limited to Iranians, The signs of this statements are now emerging in Persian Gulf, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Israel and will be felt similarly in the WHOLE world next decade. West must not wait long. All options including military must be on the table as the last resort. The regime must change and I have stated before what the West needs to do in my previous post in this thread.

A regime who treats its own people like this:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-now-is-the-time-to-stand-with-the-protesters-in-iran

Will not spare you who regards as infidels.

Edited November 23, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Right To Left]

12 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Not just Iranians but the whole world will be affected so WAKE UP.

Sanctions not tight enough on Iran. They still export 500,000 barrels a day not to mention they also export lots of industrial goods to neighbors and import as well. It has to be brought down to zero export by all means including naval blockage if the west is serious. EU has to stop dealing with this violent non-reformable regime getting the facts in their thick heads that this regime is violent by nature and is non-reformable and a danger to the whole world not just middle east. DO not repeat the mistake West made in the 30's hoping that if they can get along with Hitler then they can avoid war. War is inevitable with Iran the question is when. Now which will be less damaging to the world or next decade which will means billions may die.

If you think Iran regime is too far away and will not affect you personally then think again. The suffering in the hands of Hitler was not limited to Germans and the sufferings in the hands of mullahs will not be limited to Iranians, The signs of this statements are now emerging in Persian Gulf, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Israel and will be felt similarly in the WHOLE world next decade. West must not wait long. All options including military must be on the table as the last resort. The regime must change and I have stated before what the West needs to do in my previous post in this thread.

A regime who treats its own people like this:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-now-is-the-time-to-stand-with-the-protesters-in-iran

Will not spare you who regards as infidels.

Get back to me when you start advocating sanctions on Saudi Arabia and satellite Gulf Emirates, or other US propped up dictatorships in the world.

[SpankyMcFarland]

I can’t imagine that many Iranians living in Iran welcome sanctions. They give the West and its supporters in the country a bad name and the regime an excuse for even more drastic measures against dissent. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, Right To Left said:

Get back to me when you start advocating sanctions on Saudi Arabia and satellite Gulf Emirates, or other US propped up dictatorships in the world.

So Saudi Arabia and Emirates shoot their people from the top and back by sending their thugs and kidnap their citizens from their houses (and abroad) to prisons and torture and rape them? Or prevents funerals by families and ask for money to return the dead bodies t their families? Or they have killed and beat up women and executed tens of thousands of their citizens for simply expressing their views?..............................? They are rapidly developing nuclear weapons to hit Israel or Europe and their space industry to hit North America with nuclear weapons?

Yes those two regimes certainly not angelic but no comparison with the devil himself (the Iran regime). Don't compare flu and cancer as same disease.

Btw, do not speak to me of US prop up dictatorships when you ignore Russian prop up dictatorships like the murderous regime of Assad in Syria causing hundreds of thousands of deaths,  not to mention half a century of Russian crimes in Eastern Europe and elsewhere.

Edited November 23, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

I can’t imagine that many Iranians living in Iran welcome sanctions. They give the West and its supporters in the country a bad name and the regime an excuse for even more drastic measures against dissent. 

No I agree but they do know that without pain there will be no gain. They are being harmed every day in every way by this regime and their future and the future of their land is very bleak to say the least under this regime. So they have to endure some pain to get rid of this 21 century form of fascism. 

 Severe sanctions could bring down the regime eventually but it has to be tightened up and Europe must stop prostituting themselves. The only other option will be full scale military invasion a conclusion that the West may reach in a decade or so and that would be much more harmful/painful to Iranians than sanctions.

Edited November 23, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Right To Left said:

Every time there is even a modest and tepid introduction of economic redistribution, like Bernie's new new deal, they go into hysterics and start having bad dreams about unruly mobs and being marched off to the guillotines........just for being the job creators.

While I think the issue of the vastly disproportionate accumulation of wealth, particularly in the US, needs to be addressed, it's not as simple as the Socialist set would have it in that you can't just steal everyone's money. My main problem with Sanders is that he and Warren threaten to ensure Donald Trump gets reelected. The stuff they're spinning won't play well in the swing states. And that's where this election will be won and lost, thanks to the electoral college. Getting another million votes in the big cities that already vote democrat isn't nearly as useful as getting a hundred thousand votes in the swing states.

Warren and Sanders not only threaten the moneyed set but scare too many of the middle class, who distrust government and aren't ready for a huge increase in government spending, taxing, and cultural engineering on the part of identity politics zealots.

4 hours ago, Right To Left said:

did anyone mention ICE, the talk of building The Wall, migrant detention (prison) camps, or even the worst aspects - separating young children from their families? Or has that all been forgotten now

Most Americans want a secure border. They are not going to go along with the idea of amnesty for all illegals and giving them health care to boot. The swing states will run to Trump if the Democrats run with that sort of campaign platform. Detention centres? Sure. That's what where you put people who sneak across the border. Separation of families? So what? Happens every single day all across the world. Every time someone is arrested the children are taken into care by the state if there isn't another family guardian available, and given the number of single parents, especially among those in the lower economic stratum, that's often the case.

Canada will wind up doing the same at our borders if the numbers keep rising.

4 hours ago, Right To Left said:

there is a very large public out there who (except for us non-compliant types) feel they have no choice other than using Facebook or Google services, or even shopping on Amazon. And don't appreciate the extortion and seizure of private data to sell to others who want to squeeze more money out of them also. 

Too bad for them then. Nobody has to use Facebook. I don't. And Google? I have several Gmail accounts, all under fictitious names.  I'm sure they track me. But they have no idea who I am. It's not rocket science. Anyway, they only want your information to sell you tailored ads. Big deal.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Although the current unrest in Lebanon and Iraq is primarily a reaction to long-standing failings by those states, it also points to serious interference by Iran in the internal affairs of their neighbours. I was particularly encouraged to see sunglasses and make-up on the faces of Shi'ite protesters in Karbala, of all places - one signal that these brave women are following the same path as their Iranian sisters in embracing modernity. 

My hope for Iran is that at some point the regime sees the game is up and has leaders who love their country enough to accept this and retire to Qom. Having a religious leader like Iraq's Sistani who sees his role as primarily a spiritual one would assist considerably in this transition. Of course, the army could intervene and install a dictatorship for Lord knows how long but I remain optimistic that the underlying trend there is towards secularism and liberty. 

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by SpankyMcFarland

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

My hope for Iran is that at some point the regime sees the game is up and has leaders who love their country enough to accept this and retire to Qom. Having a religious leader like Sistani who sees his role as primarily a spiritual one would considerably assist in this transition. Of course, the army could intervene and install a dictatorship but overall I'm optimistic that the underlying trend there is towards secularism and liberty. 

 

If you believe in parting of the Nile river you can believe in this too. The problem is that if he is such he is either put aside under house arrest (like Montazari or Khatami) or in jail or somewhere will have a heart attack. They will not be taken into play or given slightest power unless they are like them and 100% their followers. 99% will land them in jail or house arrest. Love their country Eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That was really funny!!!.

Edited November 24, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

If you believe in parting of the Nile river you can believe in this too. The problem is that if he is such he is either put aside under house arrest (like Montazari or Khatami) or in jail or somewhere will have a heart attack. They will not be taken into play or given slightest power unless they are like them and 100% their followers. 99% will land them in jail or house arrest. Love their country Eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That was really funny!!!.

Hold on. I said, 'at some point', not right now. I have some idea what the current crowd are like but they are old. Let them die off. The alternative to peaceful change is violence. How much of that are you ready to prescribe for the inhabitants of that country? 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

Hold on. I said, 'at some point', not right now. I have some idea what the current crowd are like but they are old. Let them die off. The alternative to peaceful change is violence. How much of that are you ready to prescribe for the inhabitants of that country? 

The country will be dead long before them. They have already younger ones lining up take the place. I am all for a peaceful transition to democracy. I am also all for the Santa Claus coming down my chimney in a few weeks,  

Edited November 24, 2019 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

18 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The country will be dead long before them. They have already younger ones lining up take the place. I am all for a peaceful transition to democracy. I am also all for the Santa coming down my chimney is a few weeks,  

Iran is more a civilization than a mere country and will survive its current vicissitudes. Iranians have to initiate the process of reform themselves on a large scale basis. Once that happens, everyone else will row in. The sort of slaughter required to impose democracy is really not worth thinking about. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by SpankyMcFarland

[kactus]

9 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Iran is more a civilization than a mere country and will survive its current vicissitudes. Iranians have to initiate the process of reform themselves on a large scale basis. Once that happens, everyone else will row in. The sort of slaughter required to impose democracy is really not worth thinking about. 

Two things that led the change in the United Kingdom were separation of church from the state initiated by Henry VIII and the industrial revolution. 

The sentiment of secularism manifests my belief on how a country should be governed. It may be far fetched for now but the idea is pretty much aligned with the younger generation in Iran who have no recollection of the pre-revolution era 40 years ago. Iran had 2500 years of monarchy prior to the revolution. I am a great advocate of the separation of religion and politics as there is no place for a mullah in politics. Religion is a tool to make money and they will fight to the tooth to hold their grip on power at the expense of the indigenous population.

I do agree with you that change there will have to be initiated by people. If the West sticks its nose out of Iran’s affairs by cosying up to the mullahs this can facilitate the right environment for change and for people to revolt. I don’t see that happening though given the past history. 

[Right To Left]

17 hours ago, Argus said:

While I think the issue of the vastly disproportionate accumulation of wealth, particularly in the US, needs to be addressed, it's not as simple as the Socialist set would have it in that you can't just steal everyone's money. My main problem with Sanders is that he and Warren threaten to ensure Donald Trump gets reelected. The stuff they're spinning won't play well in the swing states. And that's where this election will be won and lost, thanks to the electoral college. Getting another million votes in the big cities that already vote democrat isn't nearly as useful as getting a hundred thousand votes in the swing states.

Warren and Sanders not only threaten the moneyed set but scare too many of the middle class, who distrust government and aren't ready for a huge increase in government spending, taxing, and cultural engineering on the part of identity politics zealots.

Most Americans want a secure border. They are not going to go along with the idea of amnesty for all illegals and giving them health care to boot. The swing states will run to Trump if the Democrats run with that sort of campaign platform. Detention centres? Sure. That's what where you put people who sneak across the border. Separation of families? So what? Happens every single day all across the world. Every time someone is arrested the children are taken into care by the state if there isn't another family guardian available, and given the number of single parents, especially among those in the lower economic stratum, that's often the case.

Canada will wind up doing the same at our borders if the numbers keep rising.

Too bad for them then. Nobody has to use Facebook. I don't. And Google? I have several Gmail accounts, all under fictitious names.  I'm sure they track me. But they have no idea who I am. It's not rocket science. Anyway, they only want your information to sell you tailored ads. Big deal.

1. I guess there are no supply-siders left now that the evidence of the past 40 years is insurmountable that cutting taxes for the rich just feeds the wealth divide. Now that 3 men in America (described as philanthropists!!!) have equal wealth to the bottom half of the US population and the middle class has collapsed into a large poor class so badly that we hear shocking statistics that 40% of Americans don't even have $400 in savings to cover small emergencies. If leveling the playing field is "stealing" from the rich, that only tells us the rich have already stolen wealth from others by using the system they've designed and rigged to favor them and favor investment income over earned income.

Warren is a fraud, and doesn't know her new script well enough to repeat it convincingly. Recall Obama told to pivot to the left by his advisers and made a mess of it stumbling over and stuttering his "You Didn't Build That" speech a few years back! Bernie is different. His message hasn't hardly changed in 40 years.....not that I think he hasn't made too many other compromises with political power.......especially Clinton power!

2. America loses its moral right to the "secure border" they talk about endlessly when they send in CIA, NGO's and State Dept. reps to destabilize governments in Latin America, Africa and Asia!  Where was the Republicans and the big money Right in the US, when Hondurans started fleeing their country and making up the majority of migrants into Mexico trying to cross the US border after the Hillary Coup in 2009? And the policy of trying to make smaller nations 100% compliant with global capitalism is flying apart in Chile and Columbia.....often referred to as the Israel of the Americas for its compliance with US foreign policy. 

Stop interfering and destroying other countries....regardless of whether they have elected governments, and there will be a lot fewer people attempting to migrate....because most people will not pick up and leave family behind for strange and hostile new lands unless they consider the places where they are unlivable!