BILL 21 - QUEBEC

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes.  Islam just takes it a lot further and made it into an excuse to kill women.

Where does Islam require women to be killed for not wearing a headscarf, a niqab, a long skirt, long sleeves or showing too much cleavage?  

This is not to say that it doesn't happen, but is it an actual Islamic teaching or is it something that individuals promote or practice and claim its Islamic?  

[Goddess]

21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Where does Islam require women to be killed for not wearing a headscarf, a niqab, a long skirt, long sleeves or showing too much cleavage?  

In 57 Muslim majority countries and random honour killings in every other country.

 

Quote

This is not to say that it doesn't happen,

....bit of an understatement.

Quote

but is it an actual Islamic teaching or is it something that individuals promote or practice and claim its Islamic?  

Does it matter?  Women are being killed, beaten and abused every day in Islam over these coverings.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Goddess

[dialamah]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

In 57 Muslim majority countries and random honour killings in every other country.

My question is "Is it a teaching of Islam?"  In the countries where honor killings are carried out, it's not just Muslim women, but also women from other religions, including Christianity.  In India, honor killings are also prevalent, even though it is not a Muslim majority country.  So far as my understanding goes, honor killings are not supported by any religious texts or any government, but they still happen because of cultural beliefs that are disguised as Godly directives. 

8 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Does it matter?  Women are being killed, beaten and abused every day in Islam over these coverings.

And in Christian majority countries.  

I agree with you is that abuse of women is 1) a serious problem; 2) more socially and culturally acceptable in the developing world than in Western countries.

What I don't agree with you is that this is specifically or especially an "Islamic" problem.  It's a problem for women around the world, especially among poorer and uneducated populations, whether that's a village in Africa, India, the Middle East or in the backwoods of the poorest US states.  It doesn't matter what religion these at-risk groups follow, or if they follow none at all. 

 

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My question is "Is it a teaching of Islam?" 

 

From the Quran...

"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

https://quran.com/5/32

PS: I did not write the Quran. Allah wrote it...God.

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

What I don't agree with you is that this is specifically or especially an "Islamic" problem.  It's a problem for women around the world, especially among poorer and uneducated populations, whether that's a village in Africa, India, the Middle East or in the backwoods of the poorest US states.  It doesn't matter what religion these at-risk groups follow, or if they follow none at all. 

 

Yes, we know how you feel about this topic.  If even ONE Christian does something, it's not an "Islamic" problem then.  It becomes a "world problem."  How convenient.

I get it.  I just have difficulty suspending the part of my brain that tells me the vast majority of non-Islamic women in the world are not at risk of being beaten or killed for not wearing headcoverings.  I tend to not ignore information like that, while for apologists - it's super easy.

[DogOnPorch]

4 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, we know how you feel about this topic.  If even ONE Christian does something, it's not an "Islamic" problem then.  It becomes a "world problem."  How convenient.

I get it.  I just have difficulty suspending the part of my brain that tells me the vast majority of non-Islamic women in the world are not at risk of being beaten or killed for not wearing headcoverings.  I tend to not ignore information like that, while for apologists - it's super easy.

 

The Quran clearly states that killing for honor or to prevent fitnah (strife corruption to Islam) is perfectly alright. 

[dialamah]

41 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Yes, we know how you feel about this topic.  If even ONE Christian does something, it's not an "Islamic" problem then.  It becomes a "world problem."  How convenient.

I get it.  I just have difficulty suspending the part of my brain that tells me the vast majority of non-Islamic women in the world are not at risk of being beaten or killed for not wearing headcoverings.  I tend to not ignore information like that, while for apologists - it's super easy.

Women are at risk in this world for not dressing or behaving according to custom decreed by their culture.  In the West, this means that if a woman who doesn't "dress modestly" is raped, she was "asking for it".  Even dressed more modestly, is she's in the wrong place or happens to have had alcohol, well - she's to blame.  After all, men can't be expected to control their urges if they come upon a woman who is alone and/or helpless.  Even short of raping, if a woman dresses a certain way or behaves a certain way, she is slut shamed - regardless of her actual sexual behavior.  

You don't "get it" Goddess.  You seem to think that misogyny is a staple in the Islamic religion and among Muslims, and that in every other religion its merely incidental.  Culture creates misogyny, which is why Western women are still at risk of domestic and sexual violence and being blamed for that based on their dress and behavior, by conservative-minded people regardless of religion or no religion at all.

In the Islamic countries, non-Muslim women are also subject to the same misogynistic practices as Muslim women, from FGM to domestic and sexual abuse because its culture, not religion, that dictates it.  Religion is a convenient excuse - "God said, men enforce." 

And because its culture and not religion, when Muslim men and women grow up in Canada, they become less accepting of domestic and sexual violence against women, as per Western culture and by third or so generation, their attitudes are essentially indistinguishable from non-Muslim Canadians, which includes a range of more conservative to more progressive.

Edited December 10, 2019 by dialamah

[Marocc]

3 hours ago, Teena said:

But for many it is when menstruation begins

For whom?

4 hours ago, Teena said:

under the age of 16 you are considered a child.

Who according to whom?

4 hours ago, Teena said:

No your daughter or mother or sister or Aunt would be with you.

That'd be quite a coincidence but okay, maybe.

 

3 hours ago, Teena said:

yes 200 years ago women were barefoot and in the kitchen.

Not all of them.

3 hours ago, Teena said:

You don't understand because you are not free as a woman in this religion. 

That doesn't answer my comment at all.

2 hours ago, Teena said:

I would not even consider her a Muslim by definition.

By what definition?

The OT orders women to cover their hair or shave it off. Where does the NT remove this order? Why is the virgin Mary always depicted covering her head?

2 hours ago, Teena said:

Look at M's profile pic - KKK

Huh?

2 hours ago, Teena said:

I think I can assume that M is not doing what your sis is.

Based on what do you assume?

2 hours ago, Teena said:

How can we justify this?

Justify what?

 

2 hours ago, Teena said:

Muslim women have been robbed.

Of what?

[Goddess]

8 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Women are at risk in this world for not dressing or behaving according to custom decreed by their culture.  In the West, this means that if a woman who doesn't "dress modestly" is raped, she was "asking for it".  Even dressed more modestly, is she's in the wrong place or happens to have had alcohol, well - she's to blame.  After all, men can't be expected to control their urges if they come upon a woman who is alone and/or helpless.  Even short of raping, if a woman dresses a certain way or behaves a certain way, she is slut shamed - regardless of her actual sexual behavior.  

You don't "get it" Goddess.  You seem to think that misogyny is a staple in the Islamic religion and among Muslims, and that in every other religion its merely incidental.  Culture creates misogyny, which is why Western women are still at risk of domestic and sexual violence and being blamed for that based on their dress and behavior, by conservative-minded people regardless of religion or no religion at all.

In the Islamic countries, non-Muslim women are also subject to the same misogynistic practices as Muslim women, from FGM to domestic and sexual abuse because its culture, not religion, that dictates it.  Religion is a convenient excuse - "God said, men enforce." 

And because its culture and not religion, when Muslim men and women grow up in Canada, they become less accepting of domestic and sexual violence against women, as per Western culture and by third or so generation, their attitudes are essentially indistinguishable from non-Muslim Canadians, which includes a range of more conservative to more progressive.

Yes, Dia - no one is arguing that misogyny doesn't exist anywhere except in Islam.  Islam just takes it to a whole 'nother level.

We're talking about headcoverings in Islam and you want to talk about rape culture.  No surprise there.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Goddess

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

You don't "get it" Goddess.  You seem to think that misogyny is a staple in the Islamic religion and among Muslims

 

Islam isn't misogynist...eh?

[Marocc]

41 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The Quran clearly states that killing for honor or to prevent fitnah (strife corruption to Islam) is perfectly alright. 

Where's the word honor?

[dialamah]

44 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

From the Quran...

"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

https://quran.com/5/32

PS: I did not write the Quran. Allah wrote it...God.

Sounds to me like an instruction not to murder innocents, which goes against your oft-repeated claim that Muslims are primed to murder for any or no reason.  

And if I recall correctly, that part about "corruption" is more along the lines of treasonous actions, not killing women because they failed to cover.

Fail.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Yes, Dia - no one is arguing that misogyny doesn't exist anywhere except in Islam.  Islam just takes it to a whole 'nother level.

 

Love is blind.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

Sounds to me like an instruction not to murder innocents, which goes against your oft-repeated claim that Muslims are primed to murder for any or no reason.  

And if I recall correctly, that part about "corruption" is more along the lines of treasonous actions, not killing women because they failed to cover.

Fail.

 

You're free to deny the Word of Allah.

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Where's the word honor?

 

For a soul: ie revenge.

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

You're free to deny the Word of Allah.

It's also the Koranic verse used to justify murdering journalists who "insult" Islam.  So yeah, not as benign as Dia pretends.

"Corruption" is in the eye of the Islamic.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Goddess

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Goddess said:

It's also the Koranic verse used to justify murdering journalists who "insult" Islam.  So yeah, not as benign as Dia pretends.

 

Fitnah...oddly...is the worst crime under Sharia. No fitnah allowed...Asia Bibi for example.

[DogOnPorch]

You might recall Hirsi Ali did a wee film about it that....errrr....upset the entire Islamic Umma.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

You might recall Hirsi Ali did a wee film about it that....errrr....upset the entire Islamic Umma.

And the cartoons.  I see Jesus memes all the time - can you imagine if the world's Christians started killing and rioting every time they saw one?  But yeah - Christianity and Islam are EXACTLY THE SAME.  

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

It's also the Koranic verse used to justify murdering journalists who "insult" Islam.  So yeah, not as benign as Dia pretends.

I've always maintained that the Koran supports misogyny, oppression, homophobia and terrorism by those who want it to. 

The difference between me and many Westerners is that I understand all religions do the same.   There are Christian terror groups in Africa behaving much like ISIS does, and do you suppose the Buddhists and Hindus who are practicing genocide on Muslims are defying their religious beliefs?  Certainly not; they've found some rationale in their teachings to make it God-approved.  Even the Nazi's considered themselves Christian and doing God's work as they slaughtered Jews.

All of these groups had to start out with the idea that their targeted group was "the worst" - exactly as you do.  Then they found reasons to limit that groups freedom as Quebec has done with Bill 21  and which you support.  Now, I doubt you support mass internment or slaughter of Canadian Muslims, and I don't expect Canada would ever go that far. 

But then, I doubt most Germans supported mass slaughter of Jews would be the final outcome during the slow erosion of Jewish rights and freedoms.  

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, dialamah said:

The difference between me and many Westerners is that I understand all religions do the same.

Yes, I understand all religions do basically the same The difference between us is that while I understand all religion have misogyny (for example) Islam kills and beats women for the smallest of infractions.  The Koran gives men - not just permission to beat wives - it is prescribed.  It tells them how to do it.  Thus the Islamic community looks the other way when it happens.  

And yes, not ALL Muslims.  The same as not ALL Christians or Buddists or Hindus or Pastafarians or whatever other group you want to discuss rather than Islam.

[dialamah]

39 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

For a soul: ie revenge.

A soul for a soul, kinda like what some US States practice, no Islam involved.

[Marocc]

5 hours ago, Goddess said:

This wasn't an instruction from God for how men should treat their wives.  It was foretelling that men would mistreat women due to imperfection

 

Very nice. Now, name biblical scholars who think that.

[Marocc]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

For a soul: ie revenge.

That's quite a leap. It's a wonder you didn't break your neck.

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Very nice. Now, name biblical scholars who think that.

I don't take orders from you.