BILL 21 - QUEBEC

Marocc · December 9, 2019

35 minutes ago, Goddess said:

The author is a well-traveled Muslim woman. She knows the differences between the coverings.

Oh well if she's a Muslim!

My being a Muslim has never given any credit to the validity of anything I have said in your eyes, has it? :lol:

Goddess · December 9, 2019

5 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Oh well if she's a Muslim!

My being a Muslim has never given any credit to the validity of anything I have said in your eyes, has it?

She seems like a reasonable one.

Goddess · December 9, 2019

8 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Before you quote her you say she says *this* about the decision to cover. The question is not what she knows, but do you know the difference and do you make a distinction between them when you talk about them.

Anything to divert attention from what she actually says, right?

Marocc · December 9, 2019

3 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Anything to divert attention from what she actually says, right?

Tbh it's a long dull piece you quoted and I didn't read it all. I also have hardly any interest toward the topic of niqab. I don't think it a requirement myself and anyone who goes to great lengths in talking about it is usually talking about politics, not religion.

Goddess · December 9, 2019

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

I don't think it a requirement myself and anyone who goes to great lengths in talking about it is usually talking about politics, not religion.

Bingo.

Teena · December 9, 2019

3 hours ago, Marocc said:

Propose a law all women in public office are only allowed to wear a skirt that is above knee length or shorter.

Lol ... Off topic. We don't have a law like that. In all seriousness, if your a Muslim women, you don't know what I am talking about. You see, I have freedom. Country, man nor religion tell me how I should dress or that I can not show my hair or any skin. Yes the Burka is even more restricting but in my eyes, the other way is not much better. Bill 21 is a start. You say you choose to wear it. You don't have too. Change it up a bit. Life should not be so serious. Live a little. Put a bathing suit on and go to the beach...wear a t-shirt and some shorts with your hair in a pony, go get your hair done and go to work and get some compliments Why do you choose to cover every day 'outside' your home? I already know the answer. But your husband, brother, son do not? The Muslim men in my neighborhood wear shorts, T-shirts. One cuts the grass with just his shorts on. It's hot out! Makes sense.

dialamah · December 10, 2019

On 10/25/2019 at 4:10 PM, Goddess said:

They are not being prevented from working in government or public positions.

They are being forced to choose between their religion and employment with the government, especially those women who already work in government, or whose career is in government paid institutions, such as teacher, police, nurse etc. Those women are forced to leave the province, their family, or disrupt their family to move. Sure, they can find other employment but why should a woman have to give up years of education just because they wear a hijab? Same question about a man or woman who wears a turban, btw.

I fail to see how forcing these "choices" on (primarily) women is any different than choices forced by Islam, husbands or fathers. What does it accomplish, other mollifying people who dislike Muslims?

Cannucklehead · December 10, 2019

5 minutes ago, dialamah said:

They are being forced to choose between their religion and employment with the government, especially those women who already work in government, or whose career is in government paid institutions, such as teacher, police, nurse etc. Those women are forced to leave the province, their family, or disrupt their family to move. Sure, they can find other employment but why should a woman have to give up years of education just because they wear a hijab? Same question about a man or woman who wears a turban, btw.

I fail to see how forcing these "choices" on (primarily) women is any different than choices forced by Islam, husbands or fathers. What does it accomplish, other mollifying people who dislike Muslims?

Somewhat true. They did put in a grandfather clause for current employees, but it is discouraging for future considerations.

Manitoba is currently running ads to entice people to leave Quebec and join them, much to Legaults dismay.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/6228563/quebec-manitoba-bill-21-ads-francois-legault/amp/

Teena · December 10, 2019

At what age does a Muslim woman choose to wear a Hijab or Burka? Does she choose when menstruation begins? How old? 11, 12, 13? A child?

When does a Muslim woman walk into a mosque and DECIDE to kneel separate from her husband/men and choose the back rows?

I'm just curious as to why she would choose this. I simply do not understand.

Bill 21 prevents teacher's from wearing religious symbols at work and I am for this. These practices do not belong in the Western world and a topic I would prefer not to be explaining to young children, especially girls. Men and women are equal.

Teena · December 10, 2019

Another Muslim ban:

India braces for protests over citizenship bill excluding Muslims

"But to Muslim organisations, rights groups and others the bill is part of Modi’s push to marginalise India’s Islamic minority of 200 million people."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/10/india-braces-for-protests-over-citizenship-bill-excluding-muslims

Marocc · December 10, 2019

6 hours ago, Teena said:

At what age does a Muslim woman choose to wear a Hijab or Burka? Does she choose when menstruation begins? How old? 11, 12, 13? A child?

When does a Muslim woman walk into a mosque and DECIDE to kneel separate from her husband/men and choose the back rows?

I'm just curious as to why she would choose this. I simply do not understand.

Bill 21 prevents teacher's from wearing religious symbols at work and I am for this. These practices do not belong in the Western world and a topic I would prefer not to be explaining to young children, especially girls. Men and women are equal.

It varies with hijab. Some put it on at the age of 10-12 some at 15, some in their 20s.

Women don't need to go to a mosque except maybe on special days. Then they often have their own 'room' to pray in. I don't know if any woman minds the fact that they pray separately from their family members. More if a problem is if there technically speaking is no place for women in the mosque and that the gender segregation doesn't appear to have a basis in islam.

Because it's what God has commanded.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Marocc

Marocc · December 10, 2019

12 hours ago, Teena said:

We don't have a law like that.

Why not?

12 hours ago, Teena said:

In all seriousness, if your a Muslim women, you don't know what I am talking about. You see, I have freedom.

There are quite a few Muslim women who have as much 'freedom' as you do.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Country, man

Me neither.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Country, man nor religion tell me how I should dress or that I can not show my hair or any skin.

Women 200 years ago simply had such a different personality from yours.. That's why they dressed so differently.. :rolleyes:

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Yes the Burka is even more restricting but in my eyes, the other way is not much better.

Same thing really, right? :lol:

12 hours ago, Teena said:

You say you choose to wear it. You don't have too.

You don't say

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Change it up a bit.

I frequently do.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Life should not be so serious.

As serious as what? How serious am I?

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Live a little. Put a bathing suit on and go to the beach...

A mere bathing suit isn't sufficient to assure me a good time at the beach.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

wear a t-shirt and some shorts with your hair in a pony,

Why? Would that make me happier or increase my well-being?

12 hours ago, Teena said:

go get your hair done and go to work and get some compliments

That can happen but I hope the compliments will be for the work I've done.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

Why do you choose to cover every day 'outside' your home?

Why do you say 'outside'? Because I'm a Muslim.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

I already know the answer.

Then don't ask.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

But your husband, brother, son do not?

What other people choose to do has nothing to do with me. If I have family members, what they are or do does not define me.

12 hours ago, Teena said:

The Muslim men in my neighborhood wear shorts, T-shirts. One cuts the grass with just his shorts on. It's hot out! Makes sense.

I suppose it does.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Marocc

Teena · December 10, 2019

4 hours ago, Marocc said:

It varies with hijab. Some put it on at the age of 10-12 some at 15, some in their 20s. But for many it is when menstruation begins. 10-12 and under the age of 16 you are considered a child. It's not right.

Women don't need to go to a mosque except maybe on special days. Then they often have their own 'room' to pray in. I don't know if any woman minds the fact that they pray separately from their family members. No your daughter or mother or sister or Aunt would be with you. More if a problem is if there technically speaking is no place for women in the mosque and that the gender segregation doesn't appear to have a basis in islam.

Because it's what God has commanded. Not my God!! I am created equal to my male family members. And personally I like to sit in church beside my husband. We pray together. We are one. Not separate.

Teena · December 10, 2019

3 hours ago, Marocc said:

There are quite a few Muslim women who have as much 'freedom' as you do. Are they breaking free and not following the rules of Islam?

Women 200 years ago simply had such a different personality from yours.. That's why they dressed so differently.. yes 200 years ago women were barefoot and in the kitchen. Do you know how much our Ancestors fought for equality? It is 2019 !!!!! It's called growth. We are all created equal!!!

As serious as what? How serious am I? You don't understand because you are not free as a woman in this religion.

A mere bathing suit isn't sufficient to assure me a good time at the beach. Have you ever tried it?

Why? Would that make me happier or increase my well-being? I don't know. Again have you ever tried it without guilt? Come back and talk to me after you experience the pleasure of true freedom.

That can happen but I hope the compliments will be for the work I've done. It's always nice to receive compliments on both

Why do you say 'outside'? Because I'm a Muslim. I'm referring to outside in public areas where there are lots of men. As if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Then don't ask. I was being sarcastic just like you!

dialamah · December 10, 2019

54 minutes ago, Teena said:

Come back and talk to me after you experience the pleasure of true freedom.

You are assuming an awful lot here. The only two things you know for sure about Marocc is that she's female and a Muslim. Assuming she does now and has always covered when leaving the house, has never gone to the beach in a bathing suit or has not experienced "true freedom" reflects your beliefs about Muslim women generally and not Marocc's specific experience. My sister, who converted to Islam 15 or so years ago and lives in Egypt, does not cover unless she's going to Mosque, and has, in her lifetime, worn bikinis at the beach, worn revealing clothing, gone out to clubs and danced the night away. She chose Islam and whatever strictures her beliefs put on her dress and she feels that her more modest form of dress is freeing, because it removes focus from her sexuality.

Also, Christian converts often feel that discovering God has made them "freer" even when their chosen sect imposes certain behaviors and ways of dress on them. Maybe it's the same for some Muslims.

Edited December 10, 2019 by dialamah

Marocc · December 10, 2019

1 hour ago, Teena said:

Not my God!! I am created equal to my male family members. And personally I like to sit in church beside my husband. We pray together. We are one. Not separate.

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

Teena · December 10, 2019

21 minutes ago, dialamah said:

You are assuming an awful lot here. The only two things you know for sure about Marocc is that she's female and a Muslim This is the internet so it must be true

We would not be having these discussions if Muslim women only covered up for Church and lived like your sister. I would not even consider her a Muslim by definition. Dialamah you never make any sense to me!!! Look at M's profile pic - KKK. I think I can assume that M is not doing what your sis is. How can we justify this? Muslim women have been robbed.

Teena · December 10, 2019

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

I don't care about Bible quotes. I am not ruled by religion. I believe in the 10 commandments. Common sense for a good healthy life.

Marocc · December 10, 2019

1 hour ago, Teena said:

I was being sarcastic just like you!

Where was I sarcastic? Tell me, I must correct myself. Sarcasm is not good.

1 hour ago, Teena said:

I'm referring to outside in public areas where there are lots of men. As if you don't know what I'm talking about.

I thought you meant outside — indoors & outdoors. I cover outside whether there are men or women around (there could be exceptional situations if there is no chance of any man coming around at all).

1 hour ago, Teena said:

It's always nice to receive compliments on both

Not really.

1 hour ago, Teena said:

have you ever tried it without guilt? Come back and talk to me after you experience the pleasure of true freedom.

Yes. I know your so called true freedom.

1 hour ago, Teena said:

Have you ever tried it?

I have.

1 hour ago, Teena said:

Are they breaking free and not following the rules of Islam?

Some do, some don't. The point is your assumption that Muslim women simply don't know better is false. There are those who do know all about it. And yet some of them remain or return to Islam and its rulings. It's called faith.

Marocc · December 10, 2019

3 minutes ago, Teena said:

I don't care about Bible quotes. I am not ruled by religion. I believe in the 10 commandments. Common sense for a good healthy life.

I got the impression you go to church. Were you lying or are you a hypocrite?

Goddess · December 10, 2019

10 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

This wasn't an instruction from God for how men should treat their wives. It was foretelling that men would mistreat women due to imperfection.

Funny how everyone quotes that verse, but not the following one, which foretells that it would be damn hard for men to provide for families:

Quote

¹⁷To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.

All fairy tales, anyways.

dialamah · December 10, 2019

25 minutes ago, Teena said:

We would not be having these discussions if Muslim women only covered up for Church and lived like your sister. I would not even consider her a Muslim by definition. Dialamah you never make any sense to me!!! Look at M's profile pic - KKK. I think I can assume that M is not doing what your sis is. How can we justify this? Muslim women have been robbed.

Her husband prefers her to wear 3/4 sleeves, a shirt long enough to cover her butt when wearing pants, skirts below the knee and little to no cleavage. Left to her own devices, she'd dress more modestly than she did in her pre-Islam days, but less modestly than that requested by her husband.

Is my sister more or less free than my Muslim neighbor who dresses modestly and also wears a headscarf because her husband prefers it?

Goddess · December 10, 2019

2 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Her husband prefers her to wear 3/4 sleeves, a shirt long enough to cover her butt when wearing pants, skirts below the knee and little to no cleavage. Left to her own devices, she'd dress more modestly than she did in her pre-Islam days, but less modestly than that requested by her husband.

Is my sister more or less free than my Muslim neighbor who dresses modestly and also wears a headscarf because her husband prefers it?

It sounds much the same. The old trope: "You belong to me, I own you and women are all whores so you will wear what I tell you to wear, when I tell you to wear it."

dialamah · December 10, 2019

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

It sounds much the same. The old trope: "You belong to me, I own you and women are all whores so you will wear what I tell you to wear, when I tell you to wear it."

Same for Mennonites, Hutterites, Mormons and several other more mainstream Christian churches who advise women to "dress modestly"? Is there a Christian church who does not ask women to "dress modestly", even if they don't explicitly specify length of skirt or sleeves, cleavage allowed, or bathing suit style? Is it all based on the same trope "women are whores ..."?