DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 3 hours ago, mazerunner said: Yes, the United States helped the Soviet Union well with some important materials, but no one can not boast about it, because someone just helped someone with weapons, food or medicine, while someone suffered tremendous human sacrifices using these resources to save the world from the Nazis. Please...the USSR was only about saving the world from the Nazis after the Nazis stabbed them in the back. Partners in crime before that...like two mobsters who saw mutual gain as more important than their obvious differences. All smiles as the mobsters sign the non-aggression pact. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The thing the Soviets couldn't live without (besides US steel & chemicals...that includes gasoline) was the ubiquitous 6x6 truck of various makes and models. That heavy artillery didn't haul itself. They had a few good (smaller) truck models themselves but there were never enough. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Corridor Indeed....most of these were made for Lend-Lease export....over 200,000. The Ruskies loved them...and copied them ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Indeed....most of these were made for Lend-Lease export....over 200,000. The Ruskies loved them...and copied them ! Russian artillery was organized weird...like on the corp level...it advanced behind the various Soviet Fronts (the largest unit classification ever if I'm not mistaken) as a unit and dolled out support from the top down. No junior lieutenants calling in arty by radio for these lads...you could request it of a senior officer and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: Russian artillery was organized weird...like on the corp level...it advanced behind the various Soviet Fronts (the largest unit classification ever if I'm not mistaken) as a unit and dolled out support from the top down. No junior lieutenants calling in arty by radio for these lads...you could request it of a senior officer and see what happens. Right...this command structure persisted through the Cold War as well, with company level commanders and NCOs unable to make such decisions on the fly. It really bit them in the ass in Afghanistan. The Soviets had to fight the enemy...and themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 The other oddity about the Soviets was their division sized units. Of which there were MANY. The 223rd SMG division (example) might contain JUST men carrying the PPsH 41...varying in strength from 2-10,000+ men per unit. Nothing was standard when it came to these divisions. Some only existed only on paper...much to the chagrin of the Soviet general who tried to commit them to battle...lol. 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Right...this command structure persisted through the Cold War as well, with company level commanders and NCOs unable to make such decisions on the fly. It really bit them in the ass in Afghanistan. The Soviets had to fight the enemy...and themselves. It's still there to a certain extent. Old habits die hard. Let a sergeant call artillery? Are you mad??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 The thing the Soviets loved for quasi-organic support was the various calibers of mortars. But again...you couldn't just request a mortar barrage. But rest assured that a thousand mortars would shell the Germans for 15 minutes before you charged the machine gun bunkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) The war winner contributed by the USA (besides plentiful supplies for all) was, of course, the daylight bomber offensive. It stripped the Eastern Front of both aircraft and antiaircraft giving the Soviets near total air superiority from about 1943 on. Take that, Fritz! The British and Commonwealth chums...Canada included...excelled at putting the torch to entire German cities in one go. While some doubted the effectiveness (and morality) of fire bombing entire cities into ash, the results were quite apparent as the Allies advanced into Germany itself...total ruin for the most part. Edited October 8, 2019 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 Ultimately, the Soviets relied on the attrition of many more bodies when they lacked competent leadership, mechanised cav, close air support, etc. Stalin purged away much of the experienced military leadership by '39. When Barbarossa happened in '41, they were not prepared and paid a hefty price. Finally got their poop in a group by '43 (Battle of Kursk). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The British and Commonwealth chums...Canada included...excelled at putting the torch to entire German cities in one go. While some doubted the effectiveness (and morality) of fire bombing entire cities into ash, the results were quite apparent as the Allies advanced into Germany itself...total ruin for the most part. Yes...as a child...I played the 12 O'Clock High board game that we expanded to a 10'x10' cardboard battlefield. We had primary targets...tertiary targets....gliding back over the Channel when fuel ran out...POWs...the works. Gotta get those "ball bearing" factories !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Ultimately, the Soviets relied on the attrition of many more bodies when they lacked competent leadership, mechanised cav, close air support, etc. Stalin purged away much of the experienced military leadership by '39. When Barbarossa happened in '41, they were not prepared and paid a hefty price. Finally got their poop in a group by '43 (Battle of Kursk). Yes...by Kursk, the Soviets had learned a thing or two. The war in the East can be divided into two parts in terms of how the Soviets approach battle. Before Stalingrad and After Stalingrad. Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Yes...as a child...I played the 12 O'Clock High board game that we expanded to a 10'x10' cardboard battlefield. We had primary targets...tertiary targets....gliding back over the Channel when fuel ran out...POWs...the works. Gotta get those "ball bearing" factories !! We played Luftwaffe by Avalon Hill at first...it was pretty good. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3646/luftwaffe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: The war in the East can be divided into two parts in terms of how the Soviets approach battle. Before Stalingrad and After Stalingrad. Yep....they were tired of moral victories that included freezing your ass off. Soviet doctrine was more successful against the Japanese, but that was a much smaller scale conflict. It is little wonder that the Germans wanted to surrender to the Americans or British instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 This was THE Eastern Front war-game of choice...bar none. You needed LOTS of room. A big table plus room for charts and stuff like that. 4-6 players was best. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8993/fire-east https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7690/scorched-earth Two = one BIG war-game. You could put other parts of the Europa series together to play all of WW2...don't know if anybody ever did. You'd need a gym... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Yep....they were tired of moral victories that included freezing your ass off. Soviet doctrine was more successful against the Japanese, but that was a much smaller scale conflict. It is little wonder that the Germans wanted to surrender to the Americans or British instead. It took several years of combat for a decent officer corp to be rebuilt after the Purge. Almost every top Soviet general emerged AFTER the purge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: It took several years of combat for a decent officer corp to be rebuilt after the Purge. Almost every top Soviet general emerged AFTER the purge. Even before that, the soviets had different doctrines and internal competition left over from the Revolution and WW1. It was like herding cats. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: Even before that, the soviets had different doctrines and internal competition left over from the Revolution and WW1. It was like herding cats. It was very competitive. To be Stalin's favorite meant many perks. The general Soviet doctrine was advance after sufficient barrage...very straight forward as you had a million plus men in a Front...no fancy footwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 The Allied invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky) and Italy campaign also helped the Soviets in '43. Germany had to divert resources to the incompetent Italians, taking some pressure off the eastern front. Many U.S. WW2 veterans of that invasion still resent all the attention and credit going to Operation Overlord in '44. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: The Allied invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky) and Italy campaign also helped the Soviets in '43. Germany had to divert resources to the incompetent Italians, taking some pressure off the eastern front. Many U.S. WW2 veterans of that invasion still resent all the attention and credit going to Operation Overlord in '44. God save us from our Italian allies. ---Reinhard Heydrich The Italians had one good go in North Africa then along came General O'Connor to show them how a war was actually fought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_O'Connor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 The Italian Campaign was very colourful...you gotta give it that. WW1 like conditions for most of it. Great battles though...usually fought with a modicum of chivalry...next to the Eastern Front or the Pacific. Casino was a personal fav...there's a multicultural nightmare come to the battlefield. Like a dozen different languages going on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: The Italian Campaign was very colourful...you gotta give it that. WW1 like conditions for most of it. Great battles though...usually fought with a modicum of chivalry...next to the Eastern Front or the Pacific. Casino was a personal fav...there's a multicultural nightmare come to the battlefield. Like a dozen different languages going on... Agreed...much more civilized...and much better weather. Wine for everybody ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Agreed...much more civilized...and much better weather. Wine for everybody ! The most civilized was classic North Africa...no shelling between 2 and 4...that's time for football! Rommel and such...Rommel was a decent fellow. So were Guderian & Manstein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: The most civilized was classic North Africa...no shelling between 2 and 4...that's time for football! Rommel and such...Rommel was a decent fellow. So were Guderian & Manstein. For sure...Gen. Rommel was a sweetheart compared to some of the other German psychopaths. Same for Admiral Doenitz....heh heh. Edited October 8, 2019 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: For sure...Gen. Rommel was a sweetheart compared to some of the other German psychopaths. The SS were animals...the generals, too. Most of the Wehrmacht were professionals. You could count on them NOT to shoot prisoners and what-not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 Just now, DogOnPorch said: The SS were animals...the generals, too. Most of the Wehrmacht were professionals. You could count on them NOT to shoot prisoners and what-not. This also helped them transition into NATO partners after the war. No more Nazi nonsense, just professional soldering. Hell, the Hessian mercenaries in America were Germans ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 General Heinz Guderian leading from the front as per-usual. Clearly visible in his personal command half-track is his Enigma coding machine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 8, 2019 Report Share Posted October 8, 2019 The Germans had been so rehabilitated for the Cold War, they were routinely depicted in American TV dramas and comedies through the 1960's. Not so the Soviet allies, because now they were freakin' COMMIES !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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