LNG - "in the national interest of Canada"

[cougar]

Decided to hike up to Mt Elizabeth by Kitimat, BC today - Saturday, August 31st.    Haven't been up there for about 5 years.  All I remember, it was a pretty stiff climb.

The main highway to Kitimat wasn't busy at 7am, so I expected no one up the North Hirsch FSR (Forest Service Road, like the forest needs a service).

I was overwhelmed by utter shock the moment I veered off the highway.  There were three white pickups waiting  - Ruskin, AllNorth, Dent, some of the names.

Two started on the road right after me, so I pulled over to let them go, I do not drive a pickup, but a small old station wagon.  Unfortunately soon I was followed by more pickups.  Along the way were all signs of extreme devastation  -land clearing, new roads up and down the slopes, equipment of unknown purpose installed, or sitting at newly cleared lay-down yards.   Monstrous Rock trucks and excavators all over the place. 

At one point shortly before my destination, I was boxed in by pickups on three sides and in the front towards me crawled a huge excavator.  For a moment I thought he wasn't going to stop but continue over my humble ride, crushing me inside.

You can imagine by that time I was livid and gave one guy an earful.   Then I met someone I knew among the workers.  He told me they worked on most Sundays as well !!!!!

So what about my quality of life?  And by now you will probably expect this line:  What about the lives of all wildlife in the valley?

I was there on a Saturday to get on one of the main trails in the Kitimat region; I had every right to be there and expect some peace at the end of the week.  All I got was frustration, concern about my vehicle that remained by the North Hirsch FSR and noise and pollution coming from all those industrious workers and their equipment.

Pollution?

Well, about 3 hours later I was at sufficient elevation to document what was happening in the valley below.   White smoke covered tens of killometers from the upper valleys to Kitimat.

From above the destruction of the forestry industry is also very apparent, but this, one can also see on Google Earth - all old growth trees, all over the place at elevations of 700 meters and below are removed.  What grows there now is shrubbery and in teh case of the new cut blocks - nothing, they are brown in color.

They plan another gas pipeline for the neighboring valley, that of North Kitimat and more of the same for Prince Rupert.

But hey, this is in the national interest of this country.  What should I do?  Pull my pants down and turn around?

My dog was looking intently down below trying to understand the madness going on, but was unable to; wouldn't blame him.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by cougar

[Zeitgeist]

I’m sympathetic.  Do you have pictures that show the impact?   Pipelines, once buried, shouldn’t have much presence.  

[Guest]

Yes, I have some sympathy too, as this has happened to me, but are you just annoyed because your day was ruined?

What do you actually want them to do?    Stop work now that you don't need what they're working on?

I travelled the road from Prince George to Prince Pupert with a day in Kitimat many times in the past and those photos look pretty good compared to the days when the beehive burners ruled.

As Zeitgeist stated, this will be a temporary inconvenience. 

 

[Guest]

Did you take those pictures on your cellphone?  This is what Mongolia looks like so you could.

 

 

[cougar]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Did you take those pictures on your cellphone?  This is what Mongolia looks like so you could.

I see, we are doing better than Mongolia so , no worries.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, cougar said:

I see, we are doing better than Mongolia so , no worries.

Obviously you're not worried about anything that doesn't affect your day.

Edit>  Actually, I apologise for that.  That was harsh.  The problem is that we are all one planet and with somewhere approaching 8 billion people on it, none of us has a right to a pristine wilderness anymore, unless it is in a park created for the purpose.  It just can't happen.

And don't plan on relying on the parks for ever, either.

Edited September 1, 2019 by bcsapper

[cougar]

38 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

The problem is that we are all one planet and with somewhere approaching 8 billion people on it, none of us has a right to a pristine wilderness anymore,

That's what you might think.  I am not giving my wilderness to those 8 billion people.  The moment I start running out of space it will get ugly for them, then for me too.   But one is better dead than living the life a maggot.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, cougar said:

That's what you might think.  I am not giving my wilderness to those 8 billion people.  The moment I start running out of space it will get ugly for them, then for me too.   But one is better dead than living the life a maggot.

That's true. I imagine it would be awful to be a maggot.  You, however, have no choice when it comes to the wilderness.  You have what you have because someone, somewhere, took it from the wilderness, and now that you have yours, you want it all to stop.  A parasite is worse than a maggot.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by bcsapper

[cougar]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

That's true. I imagine it would be awful to be a maggot.  You, however, have no choice when it comes to the wilderness.  You have what you have because someone, somewhere, took it from the wilderness, and now that you have yours, you want it all to stop.  A parasite is worse than a maggot.

 

The slogan of those pipelines is "Jobs for BC, Energy for the World!"  Well, guess what, I do not need a pipeline job and I do not want to supply ANY energy "to the World"

The way it works is, the energy is used to make 8 billion people become 10 billion and ask for even more energy at the expense of my wilderness and quality of life.

You think we are any different than wildlife?  If it sis too many of us not having enough food we will start killing one another.  Better avoid that through planning ahead of time. (if we are any different than maggots)

And please do not tell me that my day or the day of "all Canadians" is more important to you than your own day.  I am sure you never had a boss pay you more than he paid himself and tell you - "go ahead, enjoy life, your day is more important than mine."

Edited September 1, 2019 by cougar

[egghead]

28 minutes ago, cougar said:

The slogan of those pipelines is "Jobs for BC, Energy for the World!"  Well, guess what, I do not need a pipeline job and I do not want to supply ANY energy "to the World"

The way it works is, the energy is used to make 8 billion people become 10 billion and ask for even more energy at the expense of my wilderness and quality of life.

You think we are any different than wildlife?  If it sis too many of us not having enough food we will start killing one another.  Better avoid that through planning ahead of time. (if we are any different than maggots)

And please do not tell me that my day or the day of "all Canadians" is more important to you than your own day.  I am sure you never had a boss pay you more than he paid himself and tell you - "go ahead, enjoy life, your day is more important than mine."

You don't need an oil job, but many do. The jobs pay like there is no tmw. After NDP gives fracking a green light, I am afarid Canada will miss the LNG boat. 

 

BTW, nice pics and cute doggie

[cougar]

1 hour ago, egghead said:

The jobs pay like there is no tmw.

Because there will be no tomorrow indeed.

Edited September 1, 2019 by cougar

[Guest]

3 hours ago, cougar said:

The slogan of those pipelines is "Jobs for BC, Energy for the World!"  Well, guess what, I do not need a pipeline job and I do not want to supply ANY energy "to the World"

The way it works is, the energy is used to make 8 billion people become 10 billion and ask for even more energy at the expense of my wilderness and quality of life.

You think we are any different than wildlife?  If it sis too many of us not having enough food we will start killing one another.  Better avoid that through planning ahead of time. (if we are any different than maggots)

And please do not tell me that my day or the day of "all Canadians" is more important to you than your own day.  I am sure you never had a boss pay you more than he paid himself and tell you - "go ahead, enjoy life, your day is more important than mine."

I'm not sure what you mean by your last paragraph, so I'll not comment on that.  As for the rest of your post, it just reinforces what I said.  You don't need and you don't want.  If you can think of a way to stop those 8 billion from becoming 10 billion, fill your boots.

[cougar]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I'm not sure what you mean by your last paragraph, so I'll not comment on that. 

a response to this: " Obviously you're not worried about anything that doesn't affect your day. "

I must have misunderstood it completely.

Those pipelines do affect my day and they will affect many other peoples lives , let alone wildlife.

And yes, this natural  gas comes from fracking and yes fracking has been found responsible for earthquakes and yes, fracking can contaminate underground water sources.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, cougar said:

a response to this: " Obviously you're not worried about anything that doesn't affect your day. "

I must have misunderstood it completely.

Those pipelines do affect my day and they will affect many other peoples lives , let alone wildlife.

And yes, this natural  gas comes from fracking and yes fracking has been found responsible for earthquakes and yes, fracking can contaminate underground water sources.

Perhaps it was me that misunderstood.  It was more your reference to my day (and a boss?)that bemused me.  All resource extraction affects people and its cessation would affect them even more.

The earthquakes are not very strong, and fracking takes place a lot deeper than most groundwater sources.  But I'm not arguing the point.  I would never argue that resource extraction and use was pretty, only that it is necessary and we all benefit from it.  Even you.

[cougar]

19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

  I would never argue that resource extraction and use was pretty, only that it is necessary and we all benefit from it.  Even you.

I do.  But I also believe I am way more responsible than the average person around me.   If all were like me, there will be no economic growth, no population increase.  Life was going to be very different.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, cougar said:

I do.  But I also believe I am way more responsible than the average person around me.   If all were like me, there will be no economic growth, no population increase.  Life was going to be very different.

Ah.  No population increase.  I have often argued in the past for some kind of worldwide, forced sterilization program, but nobody would listen to me.  Really.  Not sarcasm.

The problem with being way more responsible than the average person around you is that a lot of people (me included) are and it doesn't make a difference.  I still have a house made of wood, gypsum and ashphalt.  It needs heating.  I drive a gasoline powered vehicle.  I have an employer mandated smartphone (I'll get rid of that millstone when I retire) and two computers.  All 8 billion people on Earth aspire to something the same, and most of them are not there yet.  If resources are going to be extracted and sold, and they are for the foreseeable future, it's better for both us and the planet if we do it.

Edited September 2, 2019 by bcsapper

[cougar]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

 If resources are going to be extracted and sold, and they are for the foreseeable future, it's better for both us and the planet if we do it.

I do not agree with that.   Although if we do not provide the resources, another country like the USA or China may start a war just for the sake of getting to those resources.   But since we have no plan to curb immigration or otherwise stop population growth, maybe this is the solution - get more of the Chinese in Canada, stop shipping them any resources and then wait till they start fighting against their own in Canada; thus reducing their numbers.

[Guest]

Just now, cougar said:

I do not agree with that.   Although if we do not provide the resources, another country like the USA or China may start a war just for the sake of getting to those resources.   But since we have no plan to curb immigration or otherwise stop population growth, maybe this is the solution - get more of the Chinese in Canada, stop shipping them any resources and then wait till they start fighting against their own in Canada; thus reducing their numbers.

My point was that our  regulations are among the strictest in the world. 

[cougar]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

My point was that our  regulations are among the strictest in the world. 

If this is the case, they are still not good enough.  And at the end it really makes no difference,   Whether you remove the old growth forests under strict regulations or lax ones, the final result is your forest is gone.  Currently nothing protects it.  One asks for a permit, the government is happy to oblige and collect the tax, till all trees are gone.

[Guest]

Just now, cougar said:

If this is the case, they are still not good enough.  And at the end it really makes no difference,   Whether you remove the old growth forests under strict regulations or lax ones, the final result is your forest is gone.  Currently nothing protects it.  One asks for a permit, the government is happy to oblige and collect the tax, till all trees are gone.

Sure, but don't they have to restrict clear cutting to certain areas in order to protect biodiversity, and replant areas within a certain time frame.  ( I don't know the answer to this.  I'm making assumptions because I'm in Alberta and the regs I was talking about were more aimed at the pipeline.  It's been a long time since I worked in BC)  That wouldn't be the case in many other forested locations on the planet.

Don't you have a particularly NDP government in power there right now?  One would assume they would be on top of it.

[ReeferMadness]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Sure, but don't they have to restrict clear cutting to certain areas in order to protect biodiversity, and replant areas within a certain time frame.  ( I don't know the answer to this.  I'm making assumptions because I'm in Alberta and the regs I was talking about were more aimed at the pipeline.  It's been a long time since I worked in BC)  That wouldn't be the case in many other forested locations on the planet.

Don't you have a particularly NDP government in power there right now?  One would assume they would be on top of it.

"One would assume" incorrectly.

The NDP's record on the environment is not much different from that of other parties.

[cougar]

5 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Sure, but don't they have to restrict clear cutting to certain areas in order to protect biodiversity, and replant areas within a certain time frame.  ( I don't know the answer to this.  I'm making assumptions because I'm in Alberta and the regs I was talking about were more aimed at the pipeline.  It's been a long time since I worked in BC)  That wouldn't be the case in many other forested locations on the planet.

Don't you have a particularly NDP government in power there right now?  One would assume they would be on top of it.

Unfortunately you are wrong in your assumptions.  They log all over the place including into parks or areas adjacent to parks, and mind you the parks as we all know are tiny specks on the face of the province.

I can take a video tomorrow , driving on HWY16 to work and I bet I will come across at least three full logging trucks in the 4 minutes I will spend on this highway.  This is every day , including weekends.  The rate at which the place is decimated is shocking.

But this is not all.  They leave a lot of wood debris - smaller branches and what not behind (a wildfire hazard).  The trees they plant (if they plant them) do not grow well and since they are planted too close, many die and again present a hazard for wildfires.  The healthy ones may grow for 30-40 years if given the time before they are harvested again, but they never ever reach the water circulation capacity of the old trees that were removed first.  In many cases, the soil dries up and then the first heavy rain results into a slide where the top soil is lost and goes down into the river.  Then nothing grows there again.   This is the picture around here.

Edited September 2, 2019 by cougar

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

"One would assume" incorrectly.

The NDP's record on the environment is not much different from that of other parties.

Ah.  Another myth shattered.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, cougar said:

Unfortunately you are wrong in your assumptions.  They log all over the place including into parks or areas adjacent to parks, and mind you the parks as we all know are tiny specks on the face of the province.

I can take a video tomorrow , driving on HWY16 to work and I bet I will come across at least three full logging trucks in the 4 minutes I will spend on this highway.  This is every day , including weekends.  The rate at which the place is decimated is shocking.

But this is not all.  They leave a lot of wood debris - smaller branches and what not behind (a wildfire hazard).  The trees they plant (if they plant them) do not grow well and since they are planted too close, many die and again present a hazard for wildfires.  The healthy ones may grow for 30-40 years if given the time before they are harvested again, but they never ever reach the water circulation capacity of the old trees that were removed first.  In many cases, the soil dries up and then the first heavy rain results into a slide where the top soil is lost and goes down into the river.  Then nothing grows there again.   This is the picture around here.

So really, they are just a bunch of whining hypocrites when they bang on about the pipelines?

Might as well have the Liberals in.  At least they wouldn't pretend to care.

[cougar]

4 hours ago, bcsapper said:

So really, they are just a bunch of whining hypocrites when they bang on about the pipelines?

Might as well have the Liberals in.  At least they wouldn't pretend to care.

I would not put blame on a particular party.  The way I see it, we have allowed many manufacturing jobs to go to Asia.  What we are left with are resource extraction jobs.

So politicians try to get something going to evade a total economic collapse.   This means our forests need to be sacrificed.  Then whatever else is left.  And when all else is gone, they will probably allow all Alberta pipelines to go through as well.

And of course I will oppose and protest all of that.  Not that I expect to make a difference.