Centrist Solution to Islam

[Robert Greene]

I feel like both sides have failed on Islam. The left has endorsed multiculturalism without boundaries, while there right seems to blame the entire Muslim religion for terrorism. Our leaders have demanded tolerance and an open mind, but what's their responsibility in return?

I believe the solution, is to give Canadian Mosques an ultimatum. If they want to build new Mosques, then they need to contribute to a world-wide campaign to reform and modernize the Islamic religion. 

We can no longer turn a blind eye to barbaric practice of Sharia Law. The left needs to recognize, that there are some parts of the Quran, that promotes Satanic violence. This is not to say that the entire Muslim religion is Evil, but the Quran is deeply flawed. In countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, women have been Stoned to death for Adultery, and subjected to female genital mutilation. Indonesia has public caning for homosexuality.

If western mosque aren't willing to participate in global campaign to combat extremism, they should be shut down. If moderate Muslims and Islamic Institutions are unwilling to take leadership, they should have their freedoms removed. We should not allow Islamic Institutions to get a free pass. Freedom of religion should be protected, but taxed. We should force Moderate Muslims to bare most of the responsibility in combating Islamic extremism. There is no alternative. We need the western Islamic-institutions to act as Role Models.

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Robert Greene

[QuebecOverCanada]

How can you adopt a centrist approach to people like this?

[AngusThermopyle]

Man! You guys are so intolerant! Those people were just enjoying a nice day out at a public caning. The little kids were just having a fun filled family kind of outing with their parents.

[Michael Hardner]

Since we're quoting PEW - 90% of Muslim Americans are proud of their country and that lines up pretty much with other Americans.

https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/findings-from-pew-research-centers-2017-survey-of-us-muslims/pf_2017-06-26_muslimamericans-00-11/

So let's counter the xenophobic idea that certain peoples are poison/poisoned and will infect the west.  I read on these pages that there hasn't been an Islamic reformation - well it's happening here.  I'll show myself out.

[Robert Greene]

I just got back from a moderate Muslim country. I can tell you that most of the people are wonderful. My family was treated very well. I was never afraid of the citizens. I was afraid of the government. We had to pay a 35 Cent fee to enter a national park. We purchased the permit in a small village before entering the park. When we got to the park, we noticed a sign that said, if you get caught without a permit, you will be fined the equivalent to $3500 Canadian or Spend 3 years in prison. It didn't say maximum penalty, it said either you pay the fine, or go to prison.

I was thinking to myself, what if someone didn't stop to read the sign, and tried entering the park? If they were to impose a $250 fine, or 30 days in jail, I wouldn't be complaining. I think that would be a strict deterrent. This country uses Sharia Law. The Sharia law expects maximum punishment for any crime. Even if the government feels guilty about imposing certain punishments, they believe that Allah commands them to teach law breakers a lesson. They're afraid of Allah more then their common sense. If they speak out, and have a debate they get punished.

Islam is self-censoring. They don't listen to their common sense or intuition. They leave their reasoning to Allah, and this is a problem. Most Muslims know something is wrong, but they surrender to whatever Allah has said.

I often think that the West just gives people a slap on the wrist. Many drunk drivers just get a small fine for their first offense. I can admire fair punishments for certain crimes, but I can not respect a government that rules by fear.

This government is making a mistake, because they could have a tremendous amount of tourism. They're GDP is growing twice as fast as Canada. They have beautiful Mosques, amazing architecture, beautiful parks, incredible nature. I'm in no way a racist. I love the people, but they're struggling to fix their legal system. Westerners of afraid to visit, because they don't understand the law.

I was more afraid leaving the country, than I was entering.

I think the solution is to Get Moderate Islamic institutions to start the debate. We can't leave it to our Liberal politicians to explain whats moral and immoral. We got to get moderate Muslims to help change the system.

If Canadian Islamist institutions refuse to participate, than we should impose strict limits on their practices.

We should force every Canadian Islamist institution to send letters to Saudi Arabia, condemning their practices. We need to put maximum pressure on Saudi Arabia and Iran to get them to reform their penal code.

We can respect Freedom of Religion, but we shouldn't allow Freedom of Religion without responsibility.

If we allow Islamic Institutions to remain silent, than they're apart of the problem. We have to get them to share the burden and responsibly.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Robert Greene

[taxme]

19 hours ago, Robert Greene said:

I feel like both sides have failed on Islam. The left has endorsed multiculturalism without boundaries, while there right seems to blame the entire Muslim religion for terrorism. Our leaders have demanded tolerance and an open mind, but what's their responsibility in return?

I believe the solution, is to give Canadian Mosques an ultimatum. If they want to build new Mosques, then they need to contribute to a world-wide campaign to reform and modernize the Islamic religion. 

We can no longer turn a blind eye to barbaric practice of Sharia Law. The left needs to recognize, that there are some parts of the Quran, that promotes Satanic violence. This is not to say that the entire Muslim religion is Evil, but the Quran is deeply flawed. In countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, women have been Stoned to death for Adultery, and subjected to female genital mutilation. Indonesia has public caning for homosexuality.

If western mosque aren't willing to participate in global campaign to combat extremism, they should be shut down. If moderate Muslims and Islamic Institutions are unwilling to take leadership, they should have their freedoms removed. We should not allow Islamic Institutions to get a free pass. Freedom of religion should be protected, but taxed. We should force Moderate Muslims to bare most of the responsibility in combating Islamic extremism. There is no alternative. We need the western Islamic-institutions to act as Role Models.

 

Stop all Muslim immigration now. Canada does not need a barbaric religion like Islam brought into this country. Muslims will never change what they are told and believe in. Saudi Arabia and Indonesia are prime examples of what will happen if Muslims are allowed to become a huge minority in any western country let alone the majority. It sure is strange though as to why the ones that are most vulnerable, gays and women, are in favor of allowing more of these Muslims and their sick religion into their western countries. Gays and women should be afraid of these weirdos immigrating to their countries. They will be the big losers here. 

And the real question to be asked here is where are all the haters of men feminists and the LGBTQXYZ people anyway? I do not believe that I have ever heard of or ever saw one demonstration by those two groups of people anywhere and attacking that pathetic barbaric ancient religion. But boy, let some guy/gal say something anti-gay or some guy say something anti-woman here in Canada and they and the leftist liberal media will flood the streets with demonstrations galore and want those peoples heads chopped off just like they do in Saudi Arabia. Muslims are giving the finger and death signs to the infidels in Europe and how much longer will it be before they do the same thing here in Canada. 

PS: Just for your info. According to Tommy Robinson in London there are now several pedophile Muslims on trial for raping British children and women in London which I guess is a common practice in Islamic countries to do so and get away with. After all, women are just there for a Muslim mans pleasure. Have you heard anything on the Canadian news about this? Dam right you did not and never will. The Canadian media likes to keep Muslim crimes and atrocities all kept under the carpet. Just thought I would throw that in. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by taxme

[-1=e^ipi]

Your proposal is crazy and immoral. There should be separation of religion and state.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Your proposal is crazy and immoral. There should be separation of religion and state.

Did you catch the oxymoron in the title ?  "Centrist" solution to a people ?  

[-1=e^ipi]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Did you catch the oxymoron in the title ?  "Centrist" solution to a people ?  

Yes.

Although, to be fair, the centrist Canadian position does involve violating separation of religion and state. Catholic schools, god in the anthem/charter, and the Anglican Monarchy all violate separation of religion and state.

 

Edit: Also, to be fair, Islam isn't a people, but a religion. But yes, I agree that the above proposal is crazy and immoral.

Edited March 23, 2019 by -1=e^ipi

[Robert Greene]

6 hours ago, -1=e^ipi said:

Yes.

Although, to be fair, the centrist Canadian position does involve violating separation of religion and state. Catholic schools, god in the anthem/charter, and the Anglican Monarchy all violate separation of religion and state.

 

Edit: Also, to be fair, Islam isn't a people, but a religion. But yes, I agree that the above proposal is crazy and immoral.

We can't have freedom of religion without responsibility. We need to get western Islamic institutions to help fight against extremism.

If they want to build new mosques, lets tax them, and use that revenue to help modernize Islamic countries.

We should give our respect and tolerance to the Islamic institutions are working towards progress. We should provide less accommodation towards institutions that do nothing.

 

There's a double standard. Malaysia makes millions of dollars selling alcohol to tourists. If a local has a beer, she can be caned and put in prison. We need western Islamic institutions to take on leadership.

There are 1.5 Million Muslims in the world. What if we could get 50 million to aggressively campaign for human rights?

I think we should have a small tax on everyone that enters a Canadian mosque, and use the revenue to fight extremism. The mosques that aid in diplomatic efforts should pay less taxes.

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Robert Greene

[Argus]

On 3/22/2019 at 6:30 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Since we're quoting PEW - 90% of Muslim Americans are proud of their country and that lines up pretty much with other Americans.

https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/findings-from-pew-research-centers-2017-survey-of-us-muslims/pf_2017-06-26_muslimamericans-00-11/

So let's counter the xenophobic idea that certain peoples are poison/poisoned and will infect the west.  I read on these pages that there hasn't been an Islamic reformation - well it's happening here.  I'll show myself out.

PEW had a similar figure for the UK, but when another poll asked questions which were more pertinent to what people fear it emerged very large numbers thought homosexuality should be criminalized, and were highly suspicious of Jews, who they said had too much power. Almost half would not report someone who had ties to ISIS either. Now mind you, the US is in better shape than the UK. Despite it having all that freedom of speech you don't like it has done a better job of assimilating Muslims.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

On 3/22/2019 at 8:47 AM, Robert Greene said:

I think the solution is to Get Moderate Islamic institutions to start the debate. We can't leave it to our Liberal politicians to explain whats moral and immoral. We got to get moderate Muslims to help change the system.

If Canadian Islamist institutions refuse to participate, than we should impose strict limits on their practices.

We should force every Canadian Islamist institution to send letters to Saudi Arabia, condemning their practices. We need to put maximum pressure on Saudi Arabia and Iran to get them to reform their penal code.

What's the point of forcing someone to send a letter of condemnation when the people being condemned will know it isn't really coming from those people anyway?

You cannot force people to be moderate, by whatever standard you consider moderation to be. I think that Canada is a fairly moderate state and that if left here to assimilate Islam in Canada would become more and more moderate. The problem, as I see it, is it isn't being given that chance. The twin influences of mass immigration from the Muslim world, and money and clerics coming in from Saudi Arabia are working against assimilation. Saudi money pays for free religious material (much of it extremist by our standards) pays for new mosques, schools and cultural centres, and for clerics trained in Saudi Arabia to push their extremist beliefs. And a hundred thousand new Muslims arrive each year as immigrants from the most extreme of Muslim states, perpetuating those views.

 

[Robert Greene]

Hundreds of people die from Islamic terrorism every week. Why should the rest of us have to clean up their mess? If they want to preach under the same religion, than they need to do more to condemn extremism.

We should give them a free ride. If they want to defend their religion, then they should be doing more to help up combat Islamic extremism.

We need to update the Charter of rights and freedoms.

Freedom of religion shouldn't be granted without responsibility.

[-1=e^ipi]

This idea is so awful. You want the state to pick and choose which religions it likes, tax the religions it dislikes, and subsidize the religious beliefs it does like. Furthermore, you want to institute compelled speech.

 

You really don't understand how dangerous and authoritarian that is?

[Michael Hardner]

13 hours ago, Argus said:

  Despite it having all that freedom of speech you don't like it has done a better job of assimilating Muslims.

I like freedom of speech, but not a fan of hate speech.  The US has immigration as part of its fabric - more than the UK.

[Michael Hardner]

13 hours ago, Argus said:

  freedom of speech you don't like ...

btw - are we now ok with misrepresenting each others' views ?  If you want to double down on this lie about me then I have a great list I could finally reveal about you such as:

 

• you swear under your breath every time you see a turban
• you have a picture of Archie Bunker dangling from your rear-view mirror
• you secretly like taxme

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

btw - are we now ok with misrepresenting each others' views ?  If you want to double down on this lie about me then I have a great list I could finally reveal about you such as:

 

• you swear under your breath every time you see a turban
• you have a picture of Archie Bunker dangling from your rear-view mirror
• you secretly like taxme

I'm not misrepresenting your views. You want to end freedom of speech. You've said so repeatedly.

Btw, supporting freedom of speech for speech you approve of but banning it for speech you don't approve of is not supporting freedom of speech.

We only NEED freedom of speech for speech which offends us, you know.

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

I'm not misrepresenting your views. You want to end freedom of speech. You've said so repeatedly.

No I don't.  I want to stop hate speech.  If you say I'm against freedom of speech then you're saying Canada has no freedom of speech.  Nobody is 100% in favour of any speech without legal consequences.

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

Btw, supporting freedom of speech for speech you approve of but banning it for speech you don't approve of is not supporting freedom of speech.

It has nothing to do with what I personally approve of or not.  And with that, you have decided that your truth is the only one and that you can lie about me.

As such, I will now refer to the giant closet of captured fezzes that you showed me upon your return from Muslim hunting in Egypt.

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

We only NEED freedom of speech for speech which offends us, you know.

Yes, which is why you drive your van playing Mein Kampf readings from a loudspeaker on the top.

[Argus]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No I don't.  I want to stop hate speech. 

We already have a tightly defined hate speech law. You want to enormously broaden it to encompass any speech you feel is a danger to society (but only from the Right) and that is exactly the sort of law made by every dictatorship around the world which bans freedom of speech. And as I have pointed out to you before, such laws are never left alone. They are always expanded to cover more and more 'hate' and the definition is always broadened.

And maybe you should have a look at this article, which shows how hate speech laws in Europe have often been turned on leftists as well.

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/29/in-europe-hate-speech-laws-are-often-used-to-suppress-and-punish-left-wing-viewpoints/

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Argus

[Argus]

The world as the hate speech proponents would have it.

The latest Orwellian invitation to rat out offensive speakers was issued by the South Yorkshire Police.

These clearly time-rich coppers took to Twitter to remind people that "HateHurts". That was their actual hashtag. I'm sure hate can hurt, but not nearly as much as being burgled or beaten up or whatever other crimes these cops are probably missing as they trawl Twitter for rudeness.

"In addition to reporting hate crime, please report non-crime hate incidents," they pleaded. These non-crimes include "things like offensive or insulting comments, online, in person or in writing."

It is chilling that cops, whose only business should be fighting crime, now want to hear about non-crime. Anyone who has even a sliver of respect for the ideal of liberty, for the right of people to go about their lives without being watched or narked on, should be seriously concerned that cops would want to hear about non-criminal behavior, otherwise known as everyday behavior.

Even more perversely, these non-crimes really just mean "insulting comments." So if you're in Yorkshire and someone on Facebook calls you a fat slob, call the cops. If you wear a niqab and a work colleague tells you—a la Boris Johnson—that you look a little bit like a mailbox, phone the police.

This is a country whose communications laws and public-order legislation can be, and regularly are, used to punish hateful expression. Last year The Times reported that British police are arresting nine people a day for posting "offensive messages online." In 2016, 3,300 people were detained and questioned for things they said online. In some parts of Britain the arrest rate for offensive speech has risen by nearly 900% in recent years. We Brits are sleepwalking into a police state.

https://reason.com/archives/2018/09/15/britain-turns-offensive-speech-into-a-po