Ottawa LRT - When will it be ready?

[GostHacked]

Since the snowstorm the trains have not been back on the tracks for testing.  These trains are designed for North American climates, but have NEVER been tested in such climates.  Ottawa is spending 300 million on trains that have NO track record.  One got stuck and had to be pulled back to the depot. How the hell are we to believe these trains will actually work during the cold and snow? They have only 6 weeks for all that to get sorted out.

Two delays putting the launch date down the line for over a year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-lrt-delays-cost-25m-1.4934030

Quote

Delays in completing Ottawa's light-rail system has cost $25 million so far, according to a memo the city treasurer sent to council members Wednesday afternoon. 

The city is hoping to recoup most of the costs from Rideau Transit Group (RTG), the consortium building Ottawa's $2.1-billion LRT, but there's no guarantee that will happen. 

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/city-says-lrt-delay-will-save-nearly-1m-if-the-contract-holds-up

HA well that million dollar saving has been pissed away.  Chump change considering the whole project is 2.1 billion.

Quote

The city is telling council members that it stands to save nearly $1 million on delaying the Confederation Line LRT about 10 months.

It’s an optimistic estimate, though, since the grand tally of extra costs and savings related to the delay depends on the city’s reading of its $2.1-billion construction contract with the Rideau Transit Group.

City council on Wednesday received a summary of the financial implications of the delay in a memo from corporate services general manager Marian Simulik.

Assuming that RTG hands over the LRT system in the first quarter of 2019, the city will actually come out ahead $900,000 when the costs of running the bus routes, keeping the O-Train construction office open and losing extra revenue from a projected ridership increase are factored in, according to the city.

What is really pissing me off as a driver in Ottawa is the notion from OC Transpo of 'Share the Road'. When there are many places I can no longer go because of the buses needing to use the road in stead of their dedicated routes.  Can't get on the hiway going east from Lees, St. Laurent.  Cannot get to Orleans coming from Montreal, that's all blocked off.

The impact this bullshit has had on city traffic over the past two years has been just stupid.  Combine that with construction in the downtown core, and all this is one huge cluster fudge. I expect this to be delayed AGAIN. And I expect a shit load of problems from untested trains in cold environments.

[Argus]

3 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The impact this bullshit has had on city traffic over the past two years has been just stupid.  Combine that with construction in the downtown core, and all this is one huge cluster fudge. I expect this to be delayed AGAIN. And I expect a shit load of problems from untested trains in cold environments.

Then you won't be disappointed. They'd have been better off to just put the money into improvements to the existing transitway. Once self-riving cars are a thing nobody is going to take the damn train anyway.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Argus

[GostHacked]

Wow so now they are in the talks to get funding for the extension when the main line has not even been finished yet.  Methinks Ford is gonna hold a few billion till that all gets sorted out.

[GostHacked]

Yep,  delayed again...

This time it is because the 300 million spent were for trains never vetted in winter environments.  How stupid can people be?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-trains-unreliable-says-report-1.5038832

Quote

Ottawa's $2.1-billion light rail system, supposed to be finished by the end of this month, will not only miss its third completion deadline but is experiencing issues far more serious than city officials have led the public to believe, according to internal reports obtained by CBC.

Now I think we know why it's taking so long and over budget .. SNC-Lavalin strikes again. Sure I know it's only part of it. But this has been an absolute shit show from the get go.

Quote

The reports from the city's rail operations show a litany of issues with the Confederation Line — the east-west system being built by the SNC Lavalin-led Rideau Transit Group — especially when it comes to the system's ability to handle Ottawa winters.

"Vehicles are currently unreliable to the point that it has not been demonstrated that operations can be sustained during a winter weather event," according to one report from last week.

The reports say that "panels are coming loose and breaking on LRVs [light-rail vehicles] due to snow building up on the vehicles," and that snow and ice are "frequently causing the doors to freeze shut."

Both brakes and bogies — the underframe of the rail car that holds the wheels — also freeze up if the vehicles "sit for any amount of time" outdoors during a snowfall.

And now they are entertaining running more buses to make up for the deficiency.

This is already a billion over budget, and delayed for a 3rd time. I could do a better job.  Someone needs to be fired.

Winter Event ,, means ..   snow.

Edited March 4, 2019 by GostHacked

[GostHacked]

A second train has derailed and this time they ain't saying shit about what is happening, If this continues you are going to be hard pressed to get people to ride the LRT, no one wants to be the first casualties on this track.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/2nd-lrt-train-derailed-1.5189462

Quote

But unlike the last time, when city officials held a news conference on the sidewalk across the street from the yard, the city is now refusing to comment on what exactly what went wrong, or whether the train was damaged.

Instead, the city told CBC to contact Rideau Transit Group (RTG), the consortium building the $2.1-billion east-west line, even though under the LRT contract communications for the massive project is generally the responsibility of the city.

 

[GostHacked]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/oc-transpo-overtime-costs-rising-1.5200845

So they anticipated the LRT completion, sent lay off notices, then they found out it's going to be late. Rescinded the layoffs, but a lot said 'fuck it, i'm out.'  which resulted into 30% increase in overtime pay.  I wonder what the true cost of this LRT delay is.  It's not just 1.5 billion over budget,  money wasted on overtime, stressing out drivers which puts riders at rick (fatigue). Time and money wasted by delays in moving around the city daily. Cost to businesses that are affected by the LRT construction (restricting movement).

I bet that cost would be close to 3 billion. 

[RedDog]

Ottawa is not a significant or meaningful city in CanaDUH.

[Nationalist]

On 2/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Argus said:

Then you won't be disappointed. They'd have been better off to just put the money into improvements to the existing transitway. Once self-riving cars are a thing nobody is going to take the damn train anyway.

If this is true...what's the point of bike lanes?

[ExFlyer]

So, the TSB report on broken wheels is out and .... basically all wheels must be eventually replaced.

 

The big news though is that Ottawa city manager Steve Kanellakos bails out 3 days before the LRT report is due to be made public. He says for personal reasons???  And that there my be speculation as to why he is leaving his $307K per yer job (highest pay in the city). Or, it may hit the fan and he want to be out of there?

Edited November 29, 2022 by ExFlyer

[ExFlyer]

So xx million dollars and the report is finally out

"He found that the city chose unproven technology for the trains, RTG didn't coordinate the work of its subcontractors, the city rushed the LRT system into service before it was ready due to political pressure, and RTG and its subcontractors did not provide adequate maintenance." 

Geez, I could have told them that for less than $100 LOL

 

"A scathing report on Ottawa’s troubled LRT says councillors were deliberately misled by the city’s most senior manager during construction and questions whether the city is capable of managing large infrastructure projects."

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/report-blames-failures-failure-in-leadership-deliberate-malfeasance-for-lrt-troubles

 

So, now we know why the City Manager, Steve Kanellakos, bailed out 2 days before the report was released.  The head of OC Transpo, John Manconi, also quit a while back and the Mayor did not run for election. The Three Musketeers of LRT all bailed before the poop hit the fan.

[myata]

Prepare for it to be the new normal. Like it was some rocket technology. Throw a lot of public dough, ask no questions and see what happens. The country is steadily and happily on the path to the third world (and the rail runs better in some places there). Yes, we can.

[exPS]

Likely run by overpaid and underqualified city government officials.

The Gold Coast LRT runs flawlessly, but then the train and LRT are made by Bombardier and not some company out of France.

[exPS]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:58 AM, myata said:

Throw a lot of public dough, ask no questions and see what happens.

As a friend once put it, "it is easy to spend money aka blowing it when it is not yours". But the city officials will still get a nice hefty overpaid pension one day, so why should they worry.

And as my mom once told me, "what a rich country but so totally mismanaged".

[Guest]

2 hours ago, exPS said:

The Gold Coast LRT runs flawlessly, but then the train and LRT are made by Bombardier and not some company out of France.

From what I've read, the trains were purchased cheaper, and without the necessary features for the conditions that they would be put in. They were essentially wanting a Ferrari, but wanted to look savvy buying an overpriced Nissan, instead.

They have been trying to turn that Nissan to a Ferrari with massive cost overruns.

I've experienced transport systems all over Canada, and it just boggles the mind how one could fail that poorly, with such a budget. Reminds me of the monorail, from the Simpsons show.

[myata]

There's no culture of excellence in public transit possibly in the whole of North America, possibly with some local exceptions. It seen as frill, a decoration: not a cornerstone, everyday foundation of a modern prosperous society like in Europe and some other places. And changing a mindset, a deeply rooted culture can be a formidable undertaking.

[myata]

Where else in the world (third included) could one sell the idea that to add a short extension, one would need to shut down the entire line for three years and counting? It's unique really. We don't need to do it on time and within budget. It doesn't have to make sense. It's our world we do whatever we like, no limits.

[NAME REMOVED]

Sounds worse than the Edmonton Valley Line.

[myata]

Public transit in Canada is a decoration; a badge; an afterthought. Not an essential service, for millions of citizens. As simple as that. If water supply, garbage collection and policing were on the same level of availability and quality, we would be in the third world, squarely. Are we going away from it, of the other way?

[Guest]

On 5/28/2024 at 7:41 AM, myata said:

There's no culture of excellence in public transit possibly in the whole of North America, possibly with some local exceptions. It seen as frill, a decoration: not a cornerstone, everyday foundation of a modern prosperous society like in Europe and some other places. And changing a mindset, a deeply rooted culture can be a formidable undertaking.

I was surprised at how efficient transportation was in many European countries I had been to.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I was surprised at how efficient transportation was in many European countries I had been to.

Or should it be: how normal, common sense and convenient it can be in the places where it is considered as an essential service to the citizens, and the governments are accountable and responsible?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, myata said:

common sense

I don't think you can expect to see much of this from generation Z.

One of the most entitled and bratty generations I have seen.

[myata]

I'm watching sometimes how it's being built too. A ragtag group of local companies; rusty pipes; a huge public investment in metal plates.. in the environment of constant vibration and adverse elements. Seem like the next question will be how much we'll be pouring into it to keep it running from (guessing) around year two? Is anybody even thinking about these things?

Can Canada build anything anymore: on the global level of challenge and advancement; quality; and value to the public?

[ExFlyer]

On 2/20/2019 at 12:46 PM, Argus said:

Then you won't be disappointed. They'd have been better off to just put the money into improvements to the existing transitway. Once self-riving cars are a thing nobody is going to take the damn train anyway.

I have been fortunate to travel all over.

I have seen subways and light rapid transit and other forms of public transportation. In none of the cities did they cancel, and do away with their buses. They systems run in parallel except in Ottawa.

As soon as the first train ran in Ottawa, they fired, laid off and early retired many of the bus drivers and got rid of buses and routes.

Then the shit hit the fan...the trains broke down, were unreliable and just did not function, in the winter, spring and summer. Too cold and they stopped. Too rainy and they stopped. Too hot and they stopped and they did not have any drivers and not enough buses to take up the passenger requirements.

The old mayor (Jim Watson) who was the key driver and proponent or the entire project is nowhere to be seen because he is living large somewhere on the city pension we pay him.

The entire thing is a mitigated disaster and  I am quite sure it will be another 5 to 7 years before it is running properly but...at a huge extra cost to the taxpayer

[Guest]

On 6/1/2024 at 12:33 PM, ExFlyer said:

run in parallel except in Ottawa

I was surprised when I read about the lack of a contingency plan. 

I have seen systems with many redundancies, to ensure reliability. Doors fail, you have override systems, or can still run your trains due to backup systems. 

Bad things happen. You need to be prepared for it.

Not only this, your system should be modular enough, to efficiently be able to fix and replace as needed without having to take weeks to do so.

I think the major mistake made on this project from what I can see, is the city mayor promising a system to be delivered on time, on budget and on schedule.

Focusing on this, was his gravest mistake.

There is no such thing as a project that large hitting all three targets.

The focus should have been on ensuring reliability and safety and doing so in as timely manner as possible, and it being unnacceptable to skimp on either.

This level of incompetence has caused the death penalty in China.

Mercifully we have more rights here, but for there to be zero penalties for anyone but the contractor essentially ensures you hire and even promote incompetent people to be responsible for such projects.

 

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I was surprised when I read about the lack of a contingency plan. 

I have seen systems with many redundancies, to ensure reliability. Doors fail, you have override systems, or can still run your trains due to backup systems. 

Bad things happen. You need to be prepared for it.

Not only this, your system should be modular enough, to efficiently be able to fix and replace as needed without having to take weeks to do so.

I think the major mistake made on this project from what I can see, is the city mayor promising a system to be delivered on time, on budget and on schedule.

Focusing on this, was his gravest mistake.

There is no such thing as a project that large hitting all three targets.

The focus should have been on ensuring reliability and safety and doing so in as timely manner as possible, and it being unnacceptable to skimp on either.

This level of incompetence has caused the death penalty in China.

Mercifully we have more rights here, but for there to be zero penalties for anyone but the contractor essentially ensures you hire and even promote incompetent people to be responsible for such projects.

 

Everything you say is correct.

This is one of those deals where the city pays $XX per month and everything except for driving and scheduling is done by the contractor.

The building of the system is 5+ years behind and every week another announcement of delay.

Reliability is disastrous. Shuttle buses and drivers for them when it shuts down have had to be bought and hired.

Getting anywhere on public transit now is dubious and time consuming. More people are driving now because of the unreliability.

Oh and , the latest crisis is trains stopped because the ceiling tiles in tunnels are falling down on platforms and tracks LOL