The Peace of Islam

[rbacon]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm

[Shady]

Yes, Muslims show us just how peaceful of a religion Islam is, on a daily basis it seems. Unfortunately.

[Nemo]

deleted

[Shady]

It is a sad commentary on the history of civilization that the world is too small a place for Jews, Christians and Muslims to live together in peace.

Well, it seems as though Jews and Christians can live in peace together. The same can be said for Hindus, Buddhists, etc. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for a large number of Muslims.

[Yaro]

Well, it seems as though Jews and Christians can live in peace together. The same can be said for Hindus, Buddhists, etc. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for a large number of Muslims.

Jews and Christians can live in peace together? Are you serious?

[Shady]

Jews and Christians can live in peace together? Are you serious?

Yes.

[Yaro]

You want me to start linking examples of Jewish and Christian violence? How far back should we go? How about just to the IRA for Christians, and to early Israel for the Jews? Would that do?

Christianity and Judaism have just as violent (far more violent in the case of Christianity) a history as does the Muslim faith and certainly just as exclusionary one.

[Shady]

You want me to start linking examples of Jewish and Christian violence? How far back should we go? How about just to the IRA for Christians, and to early Israel for the Jews? Would that do?

You could do that. But it would be absolutely irrelevant. I never said that Christians and Jews haven't clashed, especially in the past. But that's what it mostly consists of, the past. In terms of the now, today, the present world, which we're talking about. Jews and Christians do live in peace, with every other religion. The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

[Black Dog]

You could do that. But it would be absolutely irrelevant. I never said that Christians and Jews haven't clashed, especially in the past. But that's what it mostly consists of, the past. In terms of the now, today, the present world, which we're talking about. Jews and Christians do live in peace, with every other religion. The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

That's a rathe rbroad statement, given the fact there are something like 1.7 billion Muslims in the world (that's about a quarter of the world's population), most of whom are living quite peacefully. It seems that Muslim violence is mainly isolated to certain regions, which indicates its a political problem, not a religious one.

[BHS]

You could do that. But it would be absolutely irrelevant. I never said that Christians and Jews haven't clashed, especially in the past. But that's what it mostly consists of, the past. In terms of the now, today, the present world, which we're talking about. Jews and Christians do live in peace, with every other religion. The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

That's a rathe rbroad statement, given the fact there are something like 1.7 billion Muslims in the world (that's about a quarter of the world's population), most of whom are living quite peacefully. It seems that Muslim violence is mainly isolated to certain regions, which indicates its a political problem, not a religious one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree about your last point: as Mark Steyn has pointed out, warfare is a constant theme where Muslim dominated regions abut non-Muslim regions, regardless of local politics.

[Hawk]

Muslims are a peaceful people, if they are in a region of religious freedom. This is all just speculation (take it with a grain of salt) but it seems to me that most Muslim radicals come from the most Muslim-dominated regions, whereas 'Western' Muslims have come to realize that religions can co-exist without HAVING to dominate one another or die trying.

For a list of major world religions check this out: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

But as for Christian/Jewish clashes, you are probably thinking Catholic/Jewish conflicts (like the Crusades) because Protestant-based denominations deeply respect the Jews for being Christ's chosen people. As a side note though, Catholics now-a-days are alot less... offensive than they have been in the past So they get along with everyone pretty well too

[Argus]

The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

That's a rathe rbroad statement, given the fact there are something like 1.7 billion Muslims in the world (that's about a quarter of the world's population), most of whom are living quite peacefully. It seems that Muslim violence is mainly isolated to certain regions,

That would be the regions where there are a lot of Muslims.

[Argus]

You want me to start linking examples of Jewish and Christian violence? How far back should we go? How about just to the IRA for Christians,

The IRA had nothing to do with religion. All their known members were excommunicated by the Catholic Church, and I believe the organization was Marxist oriented anyway.

The Irish troubles had religious overtones but mainly because the natives were Cathlics and the invaders/conquerers/occupiers and their descendants were Protestants. This was not a religious struggle, per se, but a struggle for political power and land between two groups who happened to have different religions.

[Riverwind]

The Irish troubles had religious overtones but mainly because the natives were Cathlics and the invaders/conquerers/occupiers and their descendants were Protestants. This was not a religious struggle, per se, but a struggle for political power and land between two groups who happened to have different religions.

You just summed up exactly what is going on the Muslim world today. Just substitute 'Muslim' for 'Catholic' and 'Western/Christian/Jew' for 'Protestant'.

[Argus]

The Irish troubles had religious overtones but mainly because the natives were Cathlics and the invaders/conquerers/occupiers and their descendants were Protestants. This was not a religious struggle, per se, but a struggle for political power and land between two groups who happened to have different religions.

You just summed up exactly what is going on the Muslim world today. Just substitute 'Muslim' for 'Catholic' and 'Western/Christian/Jew' for 'Protestant'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't recall the IRA ever murdering anyone in God's name. I don't recall any movement within the IRA or any of its branches to turn Ireland into a theocratic state. There is a deeply religious element to all of the religious violence in the middle east. And while you could compare the Israeli/Palestinian struggle to that of Ireland, the kind of world terrorism we're discussing has nothing to do with Israel. The Saudis and Pakistanis and Somalis and Syrians who are blowing themselves up in their zeal to kill infidels are not fighting for property or political rights but for Allah and against the evil infidels (both American and Shiite).

One of the things discussed, for example, is the willingness of these suicide bombers to inflict massive casualties on civilians. From what I understand many of the bombers are Saudis and believe Shiites are as evil as the Americans, and thus are quite happy with large civilian casualties.

[Shady]

I don't recall the IRA ever murdering anyone in God's name

Exactly. The IRA never deemed non-Catholics as infidels that deserve death. The IRA never embraced a culture of suicide bombers. The IRA never trotted out their youth strapped in belts full of explosives. They valued their lives as much as their enemies valued theirs. The same can't be said of Muslims today. The seem to love death more then the rest of us love life. It's a serious perversion.

[Yaro]

You could do that. But it would be absolutely irrelevant. I never said that Christians and Jews haven't clashed, especially in the past. But that's what it mostly consists of, the past. In terms of the now, today, the present world, which we're talking about. Jews and Christians do live in peace, with every other religion. The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

Hardly irrelevant, Israeli Zionist roots and the not insignificant portion of the population there that believes in the Jewish right to rule the promised land makes up just as large a percentage as terrorists in the Muslim nations.

Jewish Terrorism in France

There are many examples of Jewish terrorism, just because you rarely hear about it because it’s not fashionable to pick on the Jews doesn't mean it does not happen.

As for the Christians, while religion has been marginalized in the west enough that such religion based terrorism are rare I could easily point to one of the many abortion clinic bombings or assassinations, the rather substantial anti-Semitism in much of the US south that persists to this day.

But lets ignore the west and focus on the few sects of Christianity in the east such as the substantial Christian population in the north east of India where ongoing terrorists attacks have killed thousands in the last century.

There have been similar attacks in China, Russia, and pretty much everywhere Christians are found to be worshiping with significant fervor.

This of course ignores the Ku Klux Klan who is at their heart a protestant organization.

When you consider the objectives of Christian terrorists and the conditions and comparative wealth of these people its pretty hard to argue that there is anywhere near the justification coming from Christians and Jews.

This is of course all delightfully ignorant of the fact that the primary philosophy that has been attributed to the rise in terrorism has its roots in western politics. (Wahhabism)

Of course someone willing to really go back some time would quickly come to the conclusion that Christianity is easily the most violent of these related religions as no other group can lay claim to terrorism on the level of the crusades alone much less he inquisition...

I don't recall the IRA ever murdering anyone in God's name. I don't recall any movement within the IRA or any of its branches to turn Ireland into a theocratic state. There is a deeply religious element to all of the religious violence in the Middle East. And while you could compare the Israeli/Palestinian struggle to that of Ireland, the kind of world terrorism we're discussing has nothing to do with Israel. The Saudis and Pakistanis and Somalis and Syrians who are blowing themselves up in their zeal to kill infidels are not fighting for property or political rights but for Allah and against the evil infidels (both American and Shiite).

Religion isn't the motivating factor for the leadership of any terrorist organization, it’s a tool used by that leadership to recruit the uneducated and desperate foot soldiers that fight any war. In this they are no different then any group fighting any other type of war. The IRA is most certainly about religion, it was a fight against having a new religion thrust upon them, that is the central theme regardless of what it has evolved into.

Clearly you have a baseline bias against Muslims feed to you by the main stream media. Congrats your a sheep.

[Nemo]

deleted

[PocketRocket]

I have two things to say in this thread:

1) The website, being strictly anti-Muslim (just check out some of the links on the main page to prove this) holds no more credence for me than do those nazi web pages which "prove" there was no holocaust, that Einstein was a fake, etc.

2) Being that the thread was started by a "New Member" who chose to simply post the link with no comment, I will not feed the troll.

Ain't goin' fishin'......have a nice day

[Black Dog]

The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

That's a rathe rbroad statement, given the fact there are something like 1.7 billion Muslims in the world (that's about a quarter of the world's population), most of whom are living quite peacefully. It seems that Muslim violence is mainly isolated to certain regions,

That would be the regions where there are a lot of Muslims.

Would you expect a lot of Muslim-violence in an area dominated by Presbyterians?

[Argus]

Hardly irrelevant, Israeli Zionist roots and the not insignificant portion of the population there that believes in the Jewish right to rule the promised land makes up just as large a percentage as terrorists in the Muslim nations.

Not that I have a lot of sympathy for the settler lot, but if you're going to equate groups which believe in the Jewish right to rule the promised land with terrorist supporters then you'll have to include virtually the entire Islamic world in as well, for almost all of them believe in the Islamic right to rule the holy lands, and a substantial number believe Islam should rule throughout the world.

There are many examples of Jewish terrorism, just because you rarely hear about it because it’s not fashionable to pick on the Jews doesn't mean it does not happen.

I don't think you can defensibly equate the attacks on fascists who advocate the removal or even extermination of Jews with general attacks on a civilian population.

As for the Christians, while religion has been marginalized in the west enough that such religion based terrorism are rare I could easily point to one of the many abortion clinic bombings or assassinations, the rather substantial anti-Semitism in much of the US south that persists to this day.

Which is relevent how? No one has suggested Christianity is perfect. I could point out that there is no anti-Semitism in the US which comes anywhere close to matching the anti-Semitism in the Muslim world, or even in much of Europe, particularly eastern Europe. And abortion clinic bombings and asssasinations are so rare you can probably remember ever single one.

But lets ignore the west and focus on the few sects of Christianity in the east such as the substantial Christian population in the north east of India where ongoing terrorists attacks have killed thousands in the last century.

You can try as you might to blow tribal conflicts out of proportion or equate them with religious fundamentalism. Only Muslim zealots will do anything other than dismiss you out of hand. There simply is no logical or coherent way to equate the level of religious violence and fanaticism in the Muslim world with any other religion today.

Of course someone willing to really go back some time would quickly come to the conclusion that Christianity is easily the most violent of these related religions as no other group can lay claim to terrorism on the level of the crusades alone much less he inquisition...

People always remember the Crusades. They always conveniently forget Muslim wars and efforts at forceable conversion in Europe. How many people died in Muslim attacks on Europe? How many people died throughout the middle east when Muhammed and his Muslim zealots conquered their land and ordered every man, woman and child converted to Islam or killed?

Religion isn't the motivating factor for the leadership of any terrorist organization, it’s a tool used by that leadership to recruit the uneducated and desperate foot soldiers that fight any war.

It can be yes, but are you suggesting bin laden and the other terrorist leaders are secular in nature, and don't actually want to create a theocratic Islamic state throughout the Muslim world? I find that hard to believe.

In this they are no different then any group fighting any other type of war. The IRA is most certainly about religion, it was a fight against having a new religion thrust upon them, that is the central theme regardless of what it has evolved into.

There was no IRA back when the struggle was merely about religion - and in fact, it was never "merely" about religion. It was about British conquest of Ireland. Now some of the treatment of Catholics which inspired some of the rebellions was religious based, but the resentment and fight against British rule was never oriented on Catholic/Protestant so much as on Irish/English.

Clearly you have a baseline bias against Muslims feed to you by the main stream media. Congrats your a sheep.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God, how many times I hear that from egotistical, yet mindless lefty zealots who think because they read some ranting conspiracy blog by someone they've never heard of they're "in the know" compared to all us poor, ordinary mortals who know only as much as the corporate capitalist conspiracy tells us. What a schmuck!

[kimmy]

This is of course all delightfully ignorant of the fact that the primary philosophy that has been attributed to the rise in terrorism has its roots in western politics. (Wahhabism)

Delightfully ignorant?

Describing Wahhabism as rooted in western politics seems about as delightfully ignorant as it gets.

Religion isn't the motivating factor for the leadership of any terrorist organization, it’s a tool used by that leadership to recruit the uneducated and desperate foot soldiers that fight any war. In this they are no different then any group fighting any other type of war. The IRA is most certainly about religion, it was a fight against having a new religion thrust upon them, that is the central theme regardless of what it has evolved into.

Surely somebody who isn't delightfully ignorant about the Wahhabis understands that attempting to unlink religion from warfare and politics is false.

Clearly you have a baseline bias against Muslims feed to you by the main stream media. Congrats your a sheep.

If anything, the mainstream media is scared to death of discussing the religious philosophies of those involved in the violence.

People in the west want to be safe in the illusion that everybody else is just like them: people primarily motivated by comforts; that everything will be a-ok once their temporal needs are taken care of. And I'm sure a great many Muslims, especially those who now reside in the west, are just the same. But clearly that's not true of all.

-k

[Yaro]

Delightfully ignorant?

Describing Wahhabism as rooted in western politics seems about as delightfully ignorant as it gets.

So just out of morbid curiosity did you actually read up on the roots of Wahhabism? Or did you just assume this position based on intuition?

Surely somebody who isn't delightfully ignorant about the Wahhabis understands that attempting to unlink religion from warfare and politics is false.

This statement makes no sense, please rephrase.

If anything, the mainstream media is scared to death of discussing the religious philosophies of those involved in the violence.

People in the west want to be safe in the illusion that everybody else is just like them: people primarily motivated by comforts; that everything will be a-ok once their temporal needs are taken care of. And I'm sure a great many Muslims, especially those who now reside in the west, are just the same. But clearly that's not true of all.

Actually it is largely true, the fact of the matter is that for the last couple of hundred years we in the west have systematically suppressed every other region on earth. This has been done not out of maliciousness but out of self interest; there are two ways to maintain dominance over another nation, by raising yourself and by pushing them down. We have done both, there are thousands of examples of this to many to discuss here but I can suggest some books if you like.

Not that I have a lot of sympathy for the settler lot, but if you're going to equate groups which believe in the Jewish right to rule the promised land with terrorist supporters then you'll have to include virtually the entire Islamic world in as well, for almost all of them believe in the Islamic right to rule the holy lands, and a substantial number believe Islam should rule throughout the world.

I am not talking necessarily about the settlers; there is a significant minority of the Israeli population that believes that they should rule over about 80% of the Middle East, the area described biblically as the Promised Land. I would also like to point out that I am certainly not saying in any way shape or for that Islam is any more a religion of peace then Judaism or Christianity, I am saying just the opposite that they have all been and all are used as a tool for various groups of aristocracies in various wars using various methods including terrorism.

I don't think you can defensibly equate the attacks on fascists who advocate the removal or even extermination of Jews with general attacks on a civilian population.

Who said I do? There are and were Jewish extremist groups that have made terrorist attacks on various public groups very similar to what has been attributed to Muslim and Christian groups. One must also keep in mind that the world wide population of Jews is pretty insignificant next to either Christians or Muslims.

There are 2.1 billion Christians, 1.3 billion Muslims, and only 15 million Jews worldwide.

You can try as you might to blow tribal conflicts out of proportion or equate them with religious fundamentalism. Only Muslim zealots will do anything other than dismiss you out of hand. There simply is no logical or coherent way to equate the level of religious violence and fanaticism in the Muslim world with any other religion today.

This has nothing to do with tribal conflict, is the India/Pakistani conflict tribal? There is no difference here.

Which is relevant how? No one has suggested Christianity is perfect. I could point out that there is no anti-Semitism in the US which comes anywhere close to matching the anti-Semitism in the Muslim world, or even in much of Europe, particularly Eastern Europe. And abortion clinic bombings and asssasinations are so rare you can probably remember ever single one.

There is no anti-Semitism in the US? Are you kidding me? The American south is a hotbed of anti-Semitism. As for abortion clinic bombings and assassinations, the happen often enough that they are quickly forgotten that hardly makes them less common.

People always remember the Crusades. They always conveniently forget Muslim wars and efforts at forcible conversion in Europe. How many people died in Muslim attacks on Europe? How many people died throughout the middle east when Muhammad and his Muslim zealots conquered their land and ordered every man, woman and child converted to Islam or killed?

Once again, this isn't about Muslim aggression, we all agree that there is and has been Muslim aggression. What I was correcting wasn't that there was no Muslim aggression just that there was just as much Christian and Jewish aggression. The aggression historically has been far more accurately based on the individual nation’s ability to wage war and the perceived benefits of waging war then on a comparative difference of ideology.

It can be yes, but are you suggesting bin laden and the other terrorist leaders are secular in nature, and don't actually want to create a theocratic Islamic state throughout the Muslim world? I find that hard to believe.

Kind of funny, you may not know this but the CIA evaluation of Bin Laden used to call him agnostic. It wasn't until he started to attack the US instead of the USSR that they started calling him a Muslim fanatic. Bin Laden is a very well educated man, religion to him like religion to most educated people with a grudge is a means to an end, he can attract and manipulate a great many people with religion. It has been done before and it will be done again.

God, how many times I hear that from egotistical, yet mindless lefty zealots who think because they read some ranting conspiracy blog by someone they've never heard of they're "in the know" compared to all us poor, ordinary mortals who know only as much as the corporate capitalist conspiracy tells us. What a schmuck! 

Riiiiiiight, you have pretty plainly displayed your ignorance on a multitude of subjects on this board, I would say that your fairly a-typical of the talk radio crowd and I would guess that’s where you get a great deal of your information from. Let me tell you a little secret, they lie to you, allot. Don't believe me? Ask yourself this, do you know what happened to the Kursk? Ask yourself this, why was the US military allowed to hand pick the reporters that were allowed into Iraq? And why did they have to submit all of there articles to the military for fact checking before they were released?

Unlike you I have critical thinking skills, I don't believe everything everyone tells me and doubly so when they have something to gain from lying to me.

[Argus]

The only exception being Muslims, who seem to have problems with everyone.

That's a rathe rbroad statement, given the fact there are something like 1.7 billion Muslims in the world (that's about a quarter of the world's population), most of whom are living quite peacefully. It seems that Muslim violence is mainly isolated to certain regions,

That would be the regions where there are a lot of Muslims.

Would you expect a lot of Muslim-violence in an area dominated by Presbyterians?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't expect any Presbyterian violence.

There is Muslim violence in just about all nations where there are substantial numbers of Muslims, whether they dominate or not.

[Argus]

I am not talking necessarily about the settlers; there is a significant minority of the Israeli population that believes that they should rule over about 80% of the Middle East,

Fine, but there is a significant minority of Muslims who believe they should rule over all the planet. And there is a significant MAJORITY of Muslims who want Israelis dead or pushed into the sea. So? If you want to equate such sentiments with terrorism the Muslims still win as the greatest terrorists.

I don't think you can defensibly equate the attacks on fascists who advocate the removal or even extermination of Jews with general attacks on a civilian population.

Who said I do? There are and were Jewish extremist groups that have made terrorist attacks on various public groups very similar to what has been attributed to Muslim and Christian groups.

And so you selected those acts commited against people like the National Front leadership for some other, more convincing reason?

Which is relevant how? No one has suggested Christianity is perfect. I could point out that there is no anti-Semitism in the US which comes anywhere close to matching the anti-Semitism in the Muslim world, or even in much of Europe, particularly Eastern Europe. And abortion clinic bombings and asssasinations are so rare you can probably remember ever single one.

There is no anti-Semitism in the US? Are you kidding me? The American south is a hotbed of anti-Semitism.

Learn to read. That way your claim of vastly superior knowledge to everyone else might hold a shred of credibility. I said that the anti-Semitism in the US south is nowhere near as severe than what exsits in Eastern Europe or throughout the Muslim world.

People always remember the Crusades. They always conveniently forget Muslim wars and efforts at forcible conversion in Europe. How many people died in Muslim attacks on Europe? How many people died throughout the middle east when Muhammad and his Muslim zealots conquered their land and ordered every man, woman and child converted to Islam or killed?

Once again, this isn't about Muslim aggression, we all agree that there is and has been Muslim aggression. What I was correcting wasn't that there was no Muslim aggression just that there was just as much Christian and Jewish aggression.

You have a very short memory. What you said was Of course someone willing to really go back some time would quickly come to the conclusion that Christianity is easily the most violent of these related religions as no other group can lay claim to terrorism on the level of the crusades alone much less he inquisition. So you were not, as you now claim, saying all religions are violent. You were baldly stating that Christianity has a much more violent history than Islam, which is nonsense.

Unlike you I have critical thinking skills,

No doubt in very good shape, too, having so rarely been put to use.