Alberta Get Out While You Can

[Hawk]

hen why are the soldiers being sent to these hotzones coming mainly from Alberta?

CFB Edmonton is overwhelmingly Eastern in origin.

Newfies make up the largest component of PPCLI, followed by Ontario, Quebec. Albertans make up the tiniest minority of PPCLI, less than 5%.

Nice try though.

Albertans complain bitterly about representation, but can't even run a proper democracy in their own province. The electoral map is totally gettymandered (with some ridings being overrepresented by as much as 45%; and there isn't even an competitive electoral system, in spite of a provincial Liberal party that is farther right than most province's right wing party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you supply sources for the PPCLI? You give figures so I assume you have them

As for Albertan politics, we are sadly under the parliamentary system (thanks Canada). However, to mock our politics and not the Feds is complete crap. We may re-elect our government but we do so because they are doing most of what we want (thats right, most. Klein isn't perfect, but as close as we can come with the current selection of candidates )

If the cons stole several billion dollars from us, and pushed through legislation that over 90% of Albertans disagreed with. You can be DAM sure we would through them out, which is why we are still better than Eastern Canada when it comes to politics =p

[Riverwind]

If the cons stole several billion dollars from us, and pushed through legislation that over 90% of Albertans disagreed with. You can be DAM sure we would through them out, which is why we are still better than Eastern Canada when it comes to politics =p

I doubt it. You would be cheerleading the Cons no matter what they did. Look at how the Rupublicans continue to support Bush despite his lies, misrepresentations and a commitment to deficit spending that would make even Jack Layton blush.

If you have any interest in understanding why the Liberals still have support then consider how you would vote if the cons were tarred with a scandal that does not directly implicate any of the current leadership AND the only alternative government was the NDP? Can you honestly say you would vote NDP rather than vote for the 'tarnished' Cons?

[Hawk]

I doubt it. You would be cheerleading the Cons no matter what they did. Look at how the Rupublicans continue to support Bush despite his lies, misrepresentations and a commitment to deficit spending that would make even Jack Layton blush.

You spout the same nonsense as the CBC, you do know how propoganda works right? You hear it enough from enough sources and you assume its true? This isn't a discussion about Bush or the Republicans so don't go there, but Bush hasn't lied (prove me wrong), misrepresented anything, and his spending is so high because he led the bloody country through 2 wars =p Try and go through war with a surplus, if you can do it your better than every leader to have ever existed.

If you have any interest in understanding why the Liberals still have support then consider how you would vote if the cons were tarred with a scandal that does not directly implicate any of the current leadership AND the only alternative government was the NDP? Can you honestly say you would vote NDP rather than vote for the 'tarnished' Cons?

Well if the financial minister became the new leader, and scandals having to do with finances started coming to the surface until finally a doozy like the Gomery Inquiry popped up then I would not vote Con I would vote the next best.

Although if we are looking at this truthfully, I wouldn't be voting Cons in the first place =p

[Riverwind]

You spout the same nonsense as the CBC, you do know how propoganda works right? You hear it enough from enough sources and you assume its true? This isn't a discussion about Bush or the Republicans so don't go there, but Bush hasn't lied (prove me wrong), misrepresented anything, and his spending is so high because he led the bloody country through 2 wars =p Try and go through war with a surplus, if you can do it your better than every leader to have ever existed.

The Iraq War was a choice that Bush made that is an undeniable fact. If you choose to believe it was justified then you have proven my point: you would support conservative politicians no matter how unethical they appear to be - as a long as they support policies that you agree with. So, in many ways, you are no different than an Ontario voter who continues to vote Liberal despite the taint of scandal that hangs around the Liberal party.

[Hawk]

The Iraq War was a choice that Bush made that is an undeniable fact. If you choose to believe it was justified then you have proven my point: you would support conservative politicians no matter how unethical they appear to be - as a long as they support policies that you agree with. So, in many ways, you are no different than an Ontario voter who continues to vote Liberal despite the taint of scandal that hangs around the Liberal party.

Your point is only valid if the Iraqi war is undeniably wrong, which it isn't.

Again, this isn't the topic at hand so stop bringing it in (since if you keep bringing it in SOMEONE *cough eureka cough* is going to start a rant about it which is going to cause someone else to respond to it which will cause more people to talk about it which will end up with this no longer being about Alberta =p)

Comparing the Iraqi war to the Gomery Inquiry is complete and utter BS, since the one is at least controversial (Iraqi war) and the other is obviously daylight robbery (Gomery Inquiry).

As an intelligent free-thinker I can safely say any person that is willing to forgive and forget what the Liberal party has, and is, doing to Canada should NEVER critisize Mulroney or any other Conservative leader. If you can stomach the kind of corruption the Liberals are responsible for (especially if you can even fathom voting for them again) then you deserve a dictatorship, because that is just what you are advocating.

[Black Dog]

To which I claimed you proved my point, which was by implication that an alcoholic, high-school drop out does a better job than the Libs and NDP =)

Thanks

But since neither the ND or Liberals have formed the government, you can't prove that statement.

Sources? The burden of proof is on the prosecution

Sure: BSE bailouts, ATB loan guarantees, lost gas royalties, Gary Mar's "consultants", Rod Love's juicy consulting contracts, auto insurance consultations with the insurance indiustry, the game farm fiasco and so on and so forth.

Of course, but then again most of Alberta is rural so its not horribly skewed. Not to mention Calgary (one of Canada's fastest growing cities) is a Conservative bastion, so your 'rural' theory kind of died.

Most of ALberta is rural? Alberta is far more urbanized than both Saskatchewan and Manitoba. More than 2/3 of the population lives in urban areas. Rural ridings have populations that are on average 25 per cent smaller than their urban counterparts, yet they have the same representation in the Legislature. That's skewed.

Been there done that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism

Well I'll be: 12 per cent and one seat at the height of the NEP backlash. But you claim separation is growing, yet the seperatist party garnered just .5 per cent support in the last election. How does that fit your thesis?

Oh and about your bars, you should stay away from those gay joints they are bad for your health... literally

I have had more hazardous encounters with hayseeds on Whyte than I ever had in my infrequent trips to Woody's for a beer.

PS I am an Albertan, I don't stereotype. Oh, and we have more national identity than Canada. Canada doesn't even have a culture, and its flag is barely 40 years old.. get a culture of your own before you criticize mine

You're sterotyping Albertans as being Conservative lovin', gay bashin', God-fearin', rural folk. I'm an Albertan and I am none of those things. Nor do I know anyone who is. And I grew up in small town Alberta.

As for culture: Canada is almost 140 years old. Alberta is just 100, so there goes that argument. Culturally, Alberta is no different from Saskatchewan, BC or Manitoba.

Yeah it did, before Pearson came in it did. Since then our country has been dominated by Liberals that have drastically changed us into the nanny-state we are today. Do you think the Libs fixed seperatism? They didn't. Do you think the Libs fixed the divide between ethnic groups? They didn't. Do you think our society gets along more than it did 40 years ago? It doesn't, look at our crime rate increase, look at racial crimes increase, hate crimes, etc etc. The Liberal dynasty has destroyed this country, and by the time you realize this I hope to be contentedly drinking beer with my redneck friends in the Republic of Alberta while the rest of you and your enlightened Liberal/NDP buddies wallow in complete poverty =) Oh, and don't try to border jump when it happens... we'll be waiting

First: you profile says you were born in 1985, which makes you 20 years old: how the hell would you know what Canada was like before Pearson? You're not even old enough to remeber Trudeau!

How do you attribute the crime rate to the Liberals? The crime rate peaked in the late '80s during the Mulroney years. So one can't really pin such things on the government of the day.

As for the last bit: are you suggesting that the Republic of Alberta will discriminate against it scitizens based on their political beliefs?

In any case, I'd be willing to place a bet that the bottom will fall out on Alberta's oil-based economy long before seperation becomes a reality.

[Hawk]

But since neither the ND or Liberals have formed the government, you can't prove that statement.

Not necessarily true, since we can look at the provincial governance of other provinces that have elected NDP/Lib candidates. From the looks of other provinces, I would say we chose right Actions speak louder than words BD, especially in politics.

Sure: BSE bailouts, ATB loan guarantees, lost gas royalties, Gary Mar's "consultants", Rod Love's juicy consulting contracts, auto insurance consultations with the insurance indiustry, the game farm fiasco and so on and so forth.

BSE bailouts is corruption? ATB loan guarantees are corrupt? Would you please point out HOW the Alberta government was corrupt in at least some of those situations?

Most of ALberta is rural? Alberta is far more urbanized than both Saskatchewan and Manitoba. More than 2/3 of the population lives in urban areas. Rural ridings have populations that are on average 25 per cent smaller than their urban counterparts, yet they have the same representation in the Legislature. That's skewed.

Compared to Ontario Alberta is rural, compared to Sask. we ARE Ontario.

Well I'll be: 12 per cent and one seat at the height of the NEP backlash. But you claim separation is growing, yet the seperatist party garnered just .5 per cent support in the last election. How does that fit your thesis?

Agreed publicly the seperatist movement is weak, simply because we are too fractured and lack the funding for campaigning. However, judging from my own personal experiences and the people I talk to, seperatism is definitely on the rise. Klein himself said '1 in 4 Albertans' currently support it (he said it to RD)

You're sterotyping Albertans as being Conservative lovin', gay bashin', God-fearin', rural folk. I'm an Albertan and I am none of those things. Nor do I know anyone who is. And I grew up in small town Alberta.

Never did I say anything about religion, you just stereotyped. Also I never once said all Albertans are 'conservative lovin gay bashin rural fol', I just said most were =p

As for culture: Canada is almost 140 years old. Alberta is just 100, so there goes that argument. Culturally, Alberta is no different from Saskatchewan, BC or Manitoba.

Yet in all that time Canada still has no culture, prove me wrong.

First: you profile says you were born in 1985, which makes you 20 years old: how the hell would you know what Canada was like before Pearson? You're not even old enough to remeber Trudeau!

Ah, the wonders of the elderly. I have grandparents and older people as friends who I discuss politics with, along with my parents (although they aren't nearly so much into politics).

How do you attribute the crime rate to the Liberals? The crime rate peaked in the late '80s during the Mulroney years. So one can't really pin such things on the government of the day.

Mulroney was no more a conservative then Stephen Harper, and the Canadian Conservative party is more socialist than the American Democratic Party.

I blame socialism, and therefore the current Canadian socialist government.

As for the last bit: are you suggesting that the Republic of Alberta will discriminate against it scitizens based on their political beliefs?

In any case, I'd be willing to place a bet that the bottom will fall out on Alberta's oil-based economy long before seperation becomes a reality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, but we will be less than kind to Albertan's that bailed on us when we went solo.. only to try and return when Canada goes up in smoke

Oh, and when the oil wells go dry (another century or so) we still have the tar sands, which are a rival to Saudi oil deposits =) We will be happy for a loooong time on oil fumes, so don't worry about that

[Guest eureka]

Intelligent free-thinker, Hawk! Wellllllllll.

Intelligence is the ability to rapidly process information. It is not wisdom which is the capacity to use the information wisely.

Free you may be in some sense and you can thank Canada for making you so. Though you will not be free in your personality until you can rid your mind of your extreme prejudice and use that information wisely.

Thinker!

Rad the Alberta Constitution for evidence of the support of Central Canada until Alberta learned to tie its own shoelaces. I have told you that during your last outburst of silliness.

No support when Alberta was starving! Again, I told you about that the last time we went through something similar.

See what I mean about the capacity to use information wisely! You have it all but you don't use it.

[Hawk]

Intelligent free-thinker, Hawk! Wellllllllll.

Intelligence is the ability to rapidly process information. It is not wisdom which is the capacity to use the information wisely.

Free you may be in some sense and you can thank Canada for making you so. Though you will not be free in your personality until you can rid your mind of your extreme prejudice and use that information wisely.

Thinker!

Rad the Alberta Constitution for evidence of the support of Central Canada until Alberta learned to tie its own shoelaces. I have told you that during your last outburst of silliness.

No support when Alberta was starving! Again, I told you about that the last time we went through something similar.

See what I mean about the capacity to use information wisely! You have it all but you don't use it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

eureka, please summarize your post in point format because from where I am sitting I didn't see any point to your post.. other than to mock me for calling myself an intelligent free-thinker of course.... OH, and there was bit about aid when we were starving... wait, you didn't send any thats right

Unfortunately eureka, I have real discussions to carry on, therefore until you can come up with some sources or real information I am afraid your emotional prattle will have to go unanswered =)

Thanks and have a great day

[Guest eureka]

As I said, read the Alberta Constitution. For the depression, just look at employment rates for those years.

[Black Dog]

Not necessarily true, since we can look at the provincial governance of other provinces that have elected NDP/Lib candidates. From the looks of other provinces, I would say we chose right  Actions speak louder than words BD, especially in politics

Can we also lay the myriad failures of conservative governments at the doorstep of Klein? No, it's nt a reasonable comparison to make. You claime dthe alternatives here were worse. I say there's no basis to this claim, given that neither the NDs or the Liberals have formed the government in over 80 years.

BSE bailouts is corruption? ATB loan guarantees are corrupt? Would you please point out HOW the Alberta government was corrupt in at least some of those situations?

BSE baiolouts that went priomarily to big U.S-meat packing corporations and agribusiness instead of independant and struggling farmers and cattlemen. An example of Klein corporate welfare. ATB: in 1994, the ATB granted West Edmonton Mall millions in loan guarantees, financing that was arranged under the direction of Klein and his cabinet and resulted in taxpayers taking at least a $155 million hit. We're talking political meddling, bribes and mismanagement and, ultimately, a lack of accountability.

Compared to Ontario Alberta is rural, compared to Sask. we ARE Ontario.

This isn't hard to figure out: Alberta has a population of 3 million people. 1 million live in Calgary, 1 million live in the Capital region. That's 2/3 of the population in urban areas.

Agreed publicly the seperatist movement is weak, simply because we are too fractured and lack the funding for campaigning. However, judging from my own personal experiences and the people I talk to, seperatism is definitely on the rise. Klein himself said '1 in 4 Albertans' currently support it (he said it to RD)

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Yet in all that time Canada still has no culture, prove me wrong.

How can one prove such a thing as culture? You'll note, at no time did I indicate Canada was culturally rich: only that Alberta is as culturally barren as the RoC. Alberta is not a distinct society.

Mulroney was no more a conservative then Stephen Harper, and the Canadian Conservative party is more socialist than the American Democratic Party.

I blame socialism, and therefore the current Canadian socialist government.

Yet you support Ralph Klein? What makes you think an Alberta giovernment would be any less "socialist"?

No, but we will be less than kind to Albertan's that bailed on us when we went solo.. only to try and return when Canada goes up in smoke

Oh, and when the oil wells go dry (another century or so) we still have the tar sands, which are a rival to Saudi oil deposits =) We will be happy for a loooong time on oil fumes, so don't worry about that

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Global oil production is expected to peak within the next 5 to 10 years: that means supply will diminish. The tar sands won't matter for a number of reasons: first, tar sands extraction requires over five times more petroleum products than regular heavy crude What's mor eis that the tar sands have about 300 billion barrels of oil in them: more than Saudi Arabia's reserves (which are diminishing), but only enough for about 10 years at current global consumption rates (which are increasing). And that's assuming that all 300 billion barrels are extractable.

So it seems to me, you're whistiling past the graveyard.

[CrazyCanuck]

"How can one prove such a thing as culture? You'll note, at no time did I indicate Canada was culturally rich: only that Alberta is as culturally barren as the RoC. Alberta is not a distinct society."

I would have to disagree. After living in Alberta, BC, and Ontario, from my own experience, i would say that ALberta definately is a distinct society. Regionalism is one of the most prominent features of the "Canadian experience" and although we are all Canadians, we all live in very distinct regions and the differences between the regions are quickly revealed as you travel across our oversized Country. I lived in 3 different provinces so far, and i found that there were 3 very distinct societies. So i'm curious as to why you think ALberta is just the same as the rest of Canada (or that Ontario is the same, or Atlantic Canada, etc)?

[Black Dog]

I would have to disagree. After living in Alberta, BC, and Ontario, from my own experience, i would say that ALberta definately is a distinct society. Regionalism is one of the most prominent features of the "Canadian experience" and although we are all Canadians, we all live in very distinct regions and the differences between the regions are quickly revealed as you travel across our oversized Country. I lived in 3 different provinces so far, and i found that there were 3 very distinct societies. So i'm curious as to why you think ALberta is just the same as the rest of Canada (or that Ontario is the same, or Atlantic Canada, etc)?

Because the differences are so superficial. If Alberta's culture is so distinct, it shopuld be easy to define. But i don't see a distinct language, religion, or other customs here that other Canadians (with the exception of Quebec) don't share.

[kimmy]

Oh, and when the oil wells go dry (another century or so) we still have the tar sands, which are a rival to Saudi oil deposits =) We will be happy for a loooong time on oil fumes, so don't worry about that

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Global oil production is expected to peak within the next 5 to 10 years: that means supply will diminish. The tar sands won't matter for a number of reasons: first, tar sands extraction requires over five times more petroleum products than regular heavy crude What's mor eis that the tar sands have about 300 billion barrels of oil in them: more than Saudi Arabia's reserves (which are diminishing), but only enough for about 10 years at current global consumption rates (which are increasing). And that's assuming that all 300 billion barrels are extractable.

So it seems to me, you're whistiling past the graveyard.

The oilsands will far outlast conventional reserves: that's simple math. The much slower rate at which the oilsands can be utilized ensures it.

At some point, conventional reserves will come into serious decline.

At some point, our civilization's dependance on petroleum will diminish as we find alternatives.

But between those two points, the oilsands will be very very lucrative. The Chinese and Americans view the oilsands as vital to their futures. Don't imagine for a minute that they didn't look at the long term viability before investing their billions.

-k

[kimmy]

Because the differences are so superficial. If Alberta's culture is so distinct, it shopuld be easy to define. But i don't see a distinct language, religion, or other customs here that other Canadians (with the exception of Quebec) don't share.

In your own words,

How can one prove such a thing as culture? You'll note, at no time did I indicate Canada was culturally rich: only that Alberta is as culturally barren as the RoC. Alberta is not a distinct society.

Culturally, Canada is not terribly different from the United States either. One can't demonstrate a difference based on language, religion, or customs... the differences between Canadians and Americans are primarily in government institutions and political views.

-k

[PocketRocket]

Eastern Canadians like the Liberals because they make the money flow into their wallets. The TROC are on the take. They will never bite the hand that feeds them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I live in Northern Ontario. Born and raised.

Just to clarify, the Liberals have not made any money flow into MY wallet.

Further, I do not like the Liberals. Don't like Paul Martin.

Unfortunately, I don't see a really credible challenge to him at the moment.

Layton is, well, Layton. He's with the NDP. NDP by their nature are non-challengers, doomed to be an opposition party forever.

I will not vote NDP simply because I don't want my tax money spent pandering to Buzz Hargrove et al.

The Progressive Conservative party got my vote in a couple elections in the past, including the year the party collapsed.

I think Kim Campbell should have been given a fair shot, but unfortunately she took the bullet for Mulroney in that election.

Unfortunately, the new Conservative party is just that; "new".

They're still finding their wings. Still have a lot of inexperienced people as MP's.

Tend to verbally shoot themselves in the foot a lot.

In my eyes, Harper has little credibility. I have yet to see that party produce a leader I like.

But I did vote Reform twice.

Bring back Preston Manning. He had credibility. If you can swing that, I'll be voting for whatever party he leads.

Next election, I'll probably choose "none of the above" by voting Green, or whatever else is available besides the traditional 3.

(BTW, excuse my ignorance, but what is "TROC"???)

[mcqueen625]

Both of my son's have moved to Alberta and they have no intentions of returning to their province of birth, except to visit occasionally. I enjoy visiting Alberta, it is a great Province, and should think seriously about your place in Canada, think about getting out., before the feds attempt another raid on your pantry, to fund provinces like Quebec and NB.

In the case of New Brunswick, our government has one agenda it seems, to collect as much money from Ottawa (Alberta, and Ontario) and piss it away on Bernard Lord's personal agenda which seems to be to turn NB into a mini-Quebec. Why Bernie even gave us our own language policeman, similar to Quebec's, who's sole mandate it seems is the promotion of the French language. This is not about bilingualism anymore, this is all about duality throughout the whole province. This is just one of the reasons English speaking NBer's are packing up and moving West, with no ntentions of returning, along with the fact that succesiveprovincial governments have succeeded in turning NB into a giant call-centre, and not much else.

Expect to receive many more English speaking NBer's in Alberta because at least in Alberta these well educated individuals can find meaningful employment without being forced to learn a dying language (French). In NB most government jobs and many in the private sector are now demanding fluency in French as a prerequisite for employment. French Immersion Programs are not the answer since our present Health Minister, and former Education Minister, Elvy Robichaud, an Acadian himself, stated publically; "The French Immersion Program in NB was not designed, nor expected to produce fluently bilingual graduates." At best most are classed as functionally bilingual and that is not sufficient to be considered as bilingual for most jobs.

Maybe if Alberta packed up and left Canada, provinces like NB and Quebec would have to quit pissing away money, and spend what we already have on priorities instead of frivilous programs that benefit only a few. The sad part is for both Western Canada, and the East, is that in Ottawa's eyes Canada's borders start and end at Manatoba / Ontario and Quebec / New Brunswick borders. A wake up call in Ottawa is definitely needed to bring these pompous asses back to reality.

[Hawk]

Bravo and well said mcqueen, I would welcome any NBers fleeing the socialist cesspool in the East For that matter, I would welcome any right-winger from any province that wanted to move to Alberta We are the last bastion of true intelligence and freedom in all of Canada.

[Guest eureka]

You were somewhat amusing until you wrote "the last bastion of true intelligence and freedom." Freedom, no! Intelligence!!!!!!!

[Hawk]

Alberta has some of the smartest children in the world eureka, sorry to dissapoint Oh, and as for freedom, for a simple example look into politcal correctness a bit =p

[playfullfellow]

I have lived in Alberta for the better part of 20 years and a few years in BC. I have seen Canada from Quebec and West. I have yet to visit the Maritimes but will do so one day. I live in Alberta because I like it here. We have pretty good freedoms. My standard of living is pretty good. Aside from a whack of "service fees", the taxes are bearable. I have never been un-employed and send my fair share East every year. I do not sub-mit to the seperation movement as I feel I am a Canadian first, an Albertan second. Klein isn't perfect by any means but he has done fairly well for the province. I know a few of the current MLA's as past neighbours and I know they are honest people. This East West crap sucks but it is a reality that we have to live with. As long as Quebec gets their little special status quirks, you will always have others pointing fingers and wagging their tongues about unfairness. I am not in favour of an "all-powerful" central government as the current electoral status is set-up. I would fear another repeat of NEP and the hardship that was endured for almost 10 years afterwards.

If we had a central government that actually stood for something other than being "PC", then there would be less grumbling in the crowd. We need a central government that looks out for the whole of Canada, not just vote rich regions out east. Currently we need a central government that will address the soft wood lumber dispute, wheat tarriffs, gasoline prices (though the prices are good for our coffers here in Alberta, they will bankrupt the average joe if we don't cap them) and the issue of taxes. We need a central government with a set of brass balls so to speak before they will get any respect from Albertan's.

Let's start to see some tangible lip service to making Canada a serious country again instead of a glorified banana replubic.

[Cartman]

Separation sells but nobody is buying. We might as well be arguing about who will own the oil rights on Mars because Alberta is going nowhere. Most of the people I know are recent Albertans who don't care one bit about the issue.

I wonder if Fort McMurray will leave Alberta seeing as it has its own unique cultural identity?

[Black Dog]

I wonder if Fort McMurray will leave Alberta seeing as it has its own unique cultural identity?

It could become Newfoundland West!

[Mr.Canada]

If they separated I'd move their in a heartbeat. Especially if they had a Reform Party type of government.

[White Doors]

If they separated I'd move their in a heartbeat. Especially if they had a Reform Party type of government.

They wouldn't take you. You are both union and an anti-semite. Both of these views are not popular there.