Conservative Governments

[CrazyCanuck]

Well, I live in Alberta and have since I was born. In terms of education system, gotta wonder why 1/3 of kids don't graduate.

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The reason Alberta has a lower number of graduates and people entering post-secondary education than the rest of the country is because it is easy to be successful in the province without an education. Construction and primary industry is a very lucrative business if your good. What's so important about an education anyways? If you barely scrape by in high school and you can become an apprentice without a diploma, why waste your time? It's a lot smarter to focus on your strengths, whatever they may be. It's kinda funny because I've lived in urban centres like Vancouver and Toronto where people seem unaware of the fact that a good carpenter or welder can make a damn good living. Most urbanites i've talked to actually look down on the blue-collar workers and dread the idea of their child entering the field, yet they'll continue to let their children play on the playground built by Jim: the unlearnded dumbass, and go to the school that was built by a bunch of half drunk "rednecks" who aren't worth the dirt that stains their hands.

Before i stray too far away from where i started, it's insulting to the people of Alberta that you, as an Albertan, don't understand the blue-collar-backbone of the province and don't recognize the strong quality of education its children receive.

[ScottBrison]

Well here we sit in Alberta, the only province in Canada with a conservative government consistently for decades.

Gosh it sure is tough out here.  We are now a debt free provice and just annouced another $5 Billion surplus.

With all this excess cash there are a number of proposals on the table:

Establish a mutli-billion dollar education endowment fund to provide an infinite supply of education dollars into the future.  Sure beats taxes!

Establish a multi-billion dollar Health Care fund for the same purpose.

Create "destination" health centres with the most cutting edge facilities anywhere in the world which will attract the very best professionals world wide.  The University of Alberta hospital already has a new cardiac centre and centre for health research under construction to this end.

Maintain our 11% flat tax and possibly eliminate income tax altogether.

Meanwhile the federal Libs tole our money, gave it to their friends, smokescreened real issues by focussing on marginal SSM, bribing MPs, gutting our health care system, and breaking their elction promise (such as eliminating the GST).

I guess Ontario voters get what they deserve.  I suspect they've never really experianced good government like we have in Alberta.

Just thought I'd give you a taste of the good life, all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah man, I admire Alberta greatly, they've had it so rough, I mean it sure is tough dealing with finances when you got an oil patch in your backyard.....

....Hell even Jed Clampett was livin high on the hog when he discovered his "bubblin crude."

Then take a look at how well Conservative Governments have done when they didn't hit the 6/49 on the texas tea, They ran Canada into the ground during the Mulroney years (and now have the audacity to blame the Liberals for our current fiscal problems), then destroyed our most populous province Ontario during the Harris Regime (and are doing the same damn thing), here in Nova Scotia they promised an ill advised tax cut and then after the election was won they were forced to pull it back when they realized they couldn't afford it (something the Liberals had said would happen all during the campaign), In New Brunswick and Nova Scotia they bungled the Auto Insurance question and came up with answers that helped Insurance Companies and hurt Insurance Customers.

I've even come up with a great slogan for their next federal campaign: "Vote Conservative, sure we've screwed you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, but hey everyone deserves a 13th change right?"

So, as I've indicated, the Alberta Conservatives deserve as much credit for fixing their province's finances as a poor guy who stumbles upon a bag filled with a million dollars.

[ScottBrison]

Its very easy for the rest of Canada to say the ONLY reason Alberta is debt-free and have surpluses year after year is because of oil.  This isn't entirely correct.  If anybody realizes it, the price of oil was VERY low throughout the entire 90s and yet, Alberta eliminated its net debt (by 1999, I believe) and was just a couple of billion dollars short of eliminating it all in 2001.  The sudden surge of the oil price after that only allowed the province to erase the remaining debt quicker.  If the price had never jumped so high, Alberta would have continued to erase the debt, although it may have taken a few years more. 

In case there are any misunderstandings, I'm not saying oil isn't a factor, i'm just saying that it isn't the only factor and it's a little more complicated than that.  If you disagree, why isn't Saskatchewan debt-free?  They would have plenty of oil to get out of debt if oil is the only reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I anticipated this sort of simplistic response.

First: to say Alberta's success is due to oil is to say that Ontario's succes is due to manufacturing. It's ridiculous. Of course Ontario's success is due to manufacturing. Just like the maritimes economic succes depends upon fisheries, or Cancun's depend's upon tourism. How simplistic can you get. I mean -- NO SHIT!!

All economic regions have economic drivers, but the previous poster is right; alberta eliminated it's deficit when oil was at $10/barrel.

Bulletin to the rest of the country: that's what you do! Tighten your belt when times are hard, then when times turn you will be in an excellent positionheld to take advantage of it. Alberta is spending literally BILLIONS on education, health and even a publicly held endownment for times when oil prices are low. This is called smart management. The rest of Canada can snarl all it wants in an effort to poo-poo good government, but we are laughing all the way to the bank in Alberta because we are smart.

Keep doing your own little money-shuffle, money-stealing games all you want out east you retards -- we are living GOOD and pretty out here.

Take a lesson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok....

Try selling a barrel of oil

try selling a fish

TAKE A LESSON.

[ScottBrison]

The Conservatives are evil eeevil people.  They want nothing more than to destroy this country.  I hope they NEVER gain power again.  Nothing would please me more than to have a Liberal government for the rest of our generation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[cybercoma]

The Conservatives are evil eeevil people.  They want nothing more than to destroy this country.  I hope they NEVER gain power again.  Nothing would please me more than to have a Liberal government for the rest of our generation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Took the words right out of my mouth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It took little effort.

[newbie]

  Alberta has the best education system...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reason Alberta has a lower number of graduates and people entering post-secondary education than the rest of the country is because it is easy to be successful in the province without an education...

...Before i stray too far away from where i started, it's insulting to the people of Alberta that you, as an Albertan, don't understand the blue-collar-backbone of the province and don't recognize the strong quality of education its children receive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you could come down from your union high horse for a minute, consider this: first of all don't assume anything. You don't know my background. Second, you seem to want to have it both ways. If we have the best education, why are kids dropping out like flys. Are you advocating education up to Grade 9 and then hit the trades? Is this the strong quality of education of which you speak?

What's so important about an education anyways? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everyone in my family had blue collar jobs, and then went on to achieve University degrees, where they found their current careers. Not all of us are cut out to be trades people. I do not denigrate blue collar jobs, and have had many, but I find your insinuation that I somehow managed to insult all of Alberta as juvenile.

[Big Blue Machine]

Ya, how does learning make me smarter?

[Argus]

Then take a look at how well Conservative Governments have done when they didn't hit the 6/49 on the texas tea, They ran Canada into the ground during the Mulroney years (and now have the audacity to blame the Liberals for our current fiscal problems)

We've been over this repeatedly. Mulroney was far more fiscally prudent than the Liberal governments which preceded and followed him. Most of the debt rung up during his years in office came from the enormous servicing charges on the Trudeau created debt during a time of very high interest rates and very high unemployment during a deep international recession. The GST he created set the stage for the current budgetary surpluses the Liberals are taking credit for - even though they fought against the GST tooth and nail at the time. The Free Trade agreement, while imperfect, has helped blunt the worst of American protectionist sentiment. No one can point to a single program initiated by the Chretien Liberals which did anything to help improve or restructure our economy. No one can point to anything Chretien did during all those years in office except pad his pockets with our money and allow every Liberal campaign contributor to load up at the trough, legally and illegally.

, then destroyed our most populous province Ontario during the Harris Regime

The Harris government was quite good for Ontario. They took over during a time when one out of every ten Ontarions was on welfare. Their every action was fought and resisted by the unions who seemed to think they were on some kind of great cause. He balanced the budget, restructured social programs and took back some of the power the fat, overpaid civil service unions had abrogated. During his tenure the Ontario economy boomed. Unfortunately, during the final year, when Ernie Eves took over, there were a number of problems, including SARS and the blackout. These were extremely expensive and damaging to the economy. In addition, Eves tried to make peace with the unions by giving into their salary demands, and that was expensive. However, the Liberals have repeatedly lied about the size of the budget deficit Eves left. For example, almost 700 million was due to the fact the federal Liberals had not yet come through with the CHST suppliment payment which, in fact, they later did come through with. Another large amount was because the tories had planned to sell off some assets, which, of course, the Liberals never did. Also, the Liberals added in deficits from Ontario Hydro, and everything else they could think of to make the deficit look bigger. In point of fact, the Liberals have already raised taxes by more than enough to have easily done away with the original deficit. Unfortunately, they have increased spending even more, so that Ontario still has a huge deficit with no sign of an improvement. The only real beneficiaries of the increased spending have been the public service unions who have gotten fat pay raises.

I've even come up with a great slogan for their next federal campaign: "Vote Conservative, sure we've screwed you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, but hey everyone deserves a 13th change right?"

Not very catchy, or clever or inventive. How about

Vote Liberal. We haven't stolen enough yet.

The Liberal Party: Making you an offer you can't refuse.

Vote Liberal and we'll cut you in on the take!

Vote Liberal and we'll make you a judge!

Vote Liberal: Sure we're crooks, but at least we're not scary!

[Canuck E Stan]

On this day of Live Aid it should be noted that the Liberal government's share of foreign aid is 0.23% of GDP. During the conservative government of Brian Mulroney, foreign aid spending averaged out at around 0.44 to 0.5% of GDP.

All these extensive surpluses that the government has and they still can't match Lyin' Brian's output. And you wonder why Bob and Bono are pissed off.

[willy]

Turns out you can't buy votes in Africa.

[CrazyCanuck]

If you could come down from your union high horse for a minute, consider this: first of all don't assume anything.

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Funny how you make an assumption in the same sentance that you are telling me not to make assumptions. I hate unions. I think that they make people weaker and lazy and although they were essential in the 19th century and early 20th, they have should have no place in today's society.

If we have the best education, why are kids dropping out like flys.

Sorry but you are trying to relate quality of education with drop-out rates when there is no causal relationship between them. And besides, i'm just basing my opinion on the results from national tests. When grade 9 students from each province all write the exact same math or science test, and Alberta students consistently do better than everyone else (the most recent science testing showed substantially better results from Alberta over everyone else), I will conclude that they have a stronger education system overall.

Are you advocating education up to Grade 9 and then hit the trades? Is this the strong quality of education of which you speak?

No i'm not. I value education highly, but i'm realistic. If someone either can't do the work, or won't do the work, they should do something else. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, but our society seems to revolve around focussing on improving your weaknesses, instead of just honing your strengths. Would you rather have a society full of people who are mediocre at everything, or one where everyone is an "expert" in a field that they are capable of being an expert in? If you can't do Calculus no matter how hard you try, but you can build a solid, high-quality house, why stay and be unsuccessful in Calculus?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Yes, manufacturing and the creation of a manufacturing base out of nothing requires real entrepreneurship.But constantly throwing  in $500 million from the government here and there for the auto industry and the airline industry to survive or compete and you get to see how great this country's major manufacturing base really is.With 80% of our trade dependant on the U.S., the Chinese could do it all at a fraction of the cost and our manufacturing sector would be gone. We have nothing to offer the world except our natural resouces,and unfortunately this country is a society that benefits from nature and always will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right Stan -- manufacturing is an industry that will be a thing of the past in developed countries as third world countries compete with cheap labour.

Anyone who thinks a manufacturing industry that was basically built on trade barriers and relies on cheaper and cheaper labour is sustainable is kidding themselves.

Alberta, on the other had, has potetially more oil than anywhere else on the globe. As oil becomes less and less available Alberta will prosper even more in future years.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Did it ever occur to people that governments are simply not corporations?  Corporations are expected to generate profits and when they do, they are successful especially considering that they cannot be guaranteed any revenue at all. 

Profit is not the goal of government.  Repeat, profit is not the goal of government.  This would be rather easy though, as they are guaranteed revenue unlike corporations.  Governments are expected to govern many aspects of society in the best interests of all society. 

Regardless of whether the government has a surplus or a deficit, the fundamental accounting error is the same.  When governments generate deficits this is evidence that they have not predicted revenues and expenditures properly and when governments generate massive surpluses this is evidence that they have not predicted expenditures and revenues properly.  Mismanagement all the same.

Only a Conservative could consider surpluses as evidence of good management.  The government has taken far too much of your hard earned money than is needed for the services you pay for and this is considered success?  I got an idea.  When governments mismanage and have too much of MY money, give me MY money back.  When a company overcharges me, they return MY money.  They do not wave it in front of my face and say what a great management job they have done.  Gouging is illegal for corporations, but government gouging is evidence for good management? 

Give your head a shake buddy because stealing is not a virtue or an amazing skill and even the federal Liberals have managed to generate surpluses.  All one has to do is continue taxing and reducing services.  This is what king Ralph has done here.  So, if you want the government to take more of YOUR money than they need to run the government, then go ahead and vote Conservative.  While you are at it, go buy a $3.00 candy bar from the "Try and Save" store because I am sure you will find them really well "managed".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What planet are you on buddy? Alberta has NO sales tax and a 11% flat income tax which may soon be zero.

So your idea of our government "taking too much of our hard earned money" is retarded.

Alberta rocks. We are the richest, most innovative, hardest working and most practical -- not to mention beautiful, place in Canada.

Deal with it.

[crazymf]

I run a small business in Nisku, heart of oil development country. The local county raised my land taxes by %38 this year. Why? They tell me land values have gone up and I'm competing in a market with rich oil companies. Even though I run a service business and am not oil related, I'm cast with same mold.

My point is that governments do take a lot of money off us here. Natural gas and energy prices are skyrocketing upwards. We stand here with gas seeping out of our water wells but pay world price for it.

Maybe our government is rich, but we all aren't. I agree with giving some money back to us.

This is a nice site. I'm doing lots of reading and learning.

[Riverwind]

Yes, manufacturing and the creation of a manufacturing base out of nothing requires real entrepreneurship.But constantly throwing  in $500 million from the government here and there for the auto industry and the airline industry to survive or compete and you get to see how great this country's major manufacturing base really is.With 80% of our trade dependant on the U.S., the Chinese could do it all at a fraction of the cost and our manufacturing sector would be gone. We have nothing to offer the world except our natural resouces,and unfortunately this country is a society that benefits from nature and always will.

What a pathetic self-defeating statement. The Ontario manufacturing base exists for all the same reasons the manufacturing base exists in all of the US great lakes states: proximity to markets, supplied of skilled workers, favourable business climate and entrepreneurship. The big ticket subsidies that politicians love did not create the manufacturing base and represent a small fraction of the total industry.

The so called competitive advantage of the Chinese is based entirely on cheap labour, undervalued currency and free capital provided via banking system that is near collapse. In short, the direct and indirect subsidies enjoyed by Chinese manufacturers would make an NDP polictician blush. The Chinese are hardly an example to follow.

[Canuck E Stan]

Unfortunately the truth is manufacturing is being eroded in all those places you mention. Plants are being closed while unions are losing membership. Labour costs are sending the work to places where it's cheaper to operate. GM makes more in financing than in selling cars.Canada in actual fact does not have a CANADIAN car company and hasn't since the 40's, and most of our manufacturing is operated as a subsidiary of a company outside of Canada.Canada is becoming a service country. Our greatest asset is our natural resouces without them there would be no investment in Canda.Everything else can be made elsewhere.Government subsidies keep the businesses here for the short term and once a better deal is to be had somewhere else they will leave. If the Loonie ever climbs to greater heights watch the manufacturing sector disappear even quicker. Wait for the effects of our constant gas price increases lately to take it's toll on manufacturing, the small car plants will survive(Toyota in Onatrio) but what will happen to the Big Three and their big trucks and vans being built in Ontario. Will they build in Ontario or will the U.S. states pressure them to stay within their borders. The world is changing very quickly and Canda really doesn't have a game plan to get ahead of the change.We rely on the U.S. for 80% of our trade and the continued investment of foreign companies into our natural resouces shows how we are losing control of our own destiny.

[SirSpanky]

What planet are you on buddy? Alberta has NO sales tax and a 11% flat income tax which may soon be zero.

So your idea of our government "taking too much of our hard earned money" is retarded.

Alberta rocks. We are the richest, most innovative, hardest working and most practical -- not to mention beautiful, place in Canada.

Deal with it.

I have a hard time believing that somehow Albertans grow a different breed of human; most innovative / hardworking etc.

That really sounds like a superiority complex to me.

[JerrySeinfeld]

What planet are you on buddy?  Alberta has NO sales tax and a 11% flat income tax which may soon be zero.

So your idea of our government "taking too much of our hard earned money" is retarded.

Alberta rocks.  We are the richest, most innovative, hardest working and most practical -- not to mention beautiful, place in Canada.

Deal with it.

I have a hard time believing that somehow Albertans grow a different breed of human; most innovative / hardworking etc.

That really sounds like a superiority complex to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right, we don't breed that type of person, we attract it.

[Guest eureka]

Don't you mean "buy it," Jerry?

What type of person do you breed instead?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Don't you mean "buy it," Jerry?

What type of person do you breed instead?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alberta's low tax, business friendly, poineering environment is the reason so many eastern corporations have chosen to relocate their head offices to Alberta.

Your negative tone is precisely the type of attitude we try to extinguish from our beautiful province.

[CrazyCanuck]

Alberta ranks in the top 10 (tied for fourth place) in North America for economic freedom amongst the states and provinces. Every other province in the country makes up the bottem 9 of the list ( ranked 52-60) and are comparable as far as prosperity to the poorest southern states like Mississippi and Alabama. They have the lowest taxes in the country, with provincial tax being 25% lower than the next closest province. I could go on and on but i don't want to boast too much. Does anyone really not understand why Alberta kicks ass on the rest of the country? Oh yeah, and believe it or not, Albertans are the friendliest people in the country too (I've been told this by many tourists, and i didn't believe it at first, until i travelled around the country. Personally, i think the east coasters are probably about the same, but central Canada, give me a break, i've never met so many rude snobs as i've met in Ontario. Maybe its just me though.)

[SirSpanky]

Granted my friend, that all the great business policies you have there attract the alpha personalities, both corporate and individual. But does that give you the right to criticize all others? With such an arrogant attitude to boot?

Personally, I wouldn't want to move there specifically for the economic regions. As long as I can get by, and raise a good family, I'm aight.

This thinking of people as being defined by their groups is horse-$%^&. I'll agree with an earlier post in saying that we should think of others as fellow humans, and do what is necessary to let the maximum number of people live a healthy good life.

IRT #46:

It is just you. Lots of friendly people in central Canada

[CrazyCanuck]

I've met lots of nice people everywhere in Canada, too. But hey, whats so wrong with a little boasting now and again, even if it is biased? Can you honestly say that central canadians have a true respect for the west and its contributions? Many people in Ontario, including a number of University profs i've had, actually still believe that Ontario supports the weight of the entire country on its back, and i think we all know how true that is. You know what though, since this has nothing to do with the thread, i'll just stop now.

[Black Dog]

I do so love to see so many Alberta myths rolled out at once. Who says we Albertans don't like recycling?

Let's start with taxes. On paper, Alberta does indeed have lower taxes than the rest of the country. However, we also have dozens of other taxes, such as health premiums, commodity taxes, user fees that rake in billions, but somehow slip under the radar. Some taxes just don't figure into the calculations. Then we have the flat tax, an initiative that, like so many other products of the Klein revolution, was foisted upon us with little debate or consultation and cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement.

Then we have the myth of self-sufficiency. Alberta is a province built on government largesse. The oil and agricultural industries in particular are two examples of where the government has helped subsidize private business with public dollars through loans and sweetheart royalty deals. Certainly, the province sees some returns, but often (like the BSE bailout) these handouts amount to little more than subsidizing failures. I've always found the BSE crisis as evidence of the two-faced nature of Alberta's self-image: the same folks who, in good times, just want the government off their backs are the first with their hands out when things go pear-shaped.

Fiscal prudence? Sure, if chopping mercilessly to defuse what was a mostly a non-crisis over debt is prudence. If paying off the debt while allowing services and infrastructure to crumble is prudence. And sure, the government has since re-invested billions in health and education. But what’s clearly lacking is any sort of vision. Klein taketh away and Klein giveth haphazardly, promising, but never quite delivering earth shattering reforms in areas like healthcare, applying band-aid solutions to skyrocketing tuition rates and patchwork pot hole coverings to municipal infrastructure debts.

I could go on, I suppose, but really, I doubt I’ll change any of the cheerleader’s outlooks. Alberta isn’t a horrible place to live. We do have it pretty good here. However, the constant rah-rah refrain is tiresome and ignores so many areas we could be doing better in. There’s nothing wrong with a little self-criticism.

[CrazyCanuck]

Fiscal prudence? Sure, if chopping mercilessly to defuse what was a mostly a non-crisis over debt is prudence. If paying off the debt while allowing services and infrastructure to crumble is prudence.

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Which one's are crumbling, or were crumbling? I never understand that. Why does cutbacks automatically mean things are worsening, to some people? Its not how much you spend but how you spend it. If the infrastructure took such a hard blow, why are the roads, hospitals, and education system the best in the country and were basically the best during the crumbling of the alberta infrastructure, as you put it. Alberta had the highest standard of living in the country throughout the Klein cutbacks. Maybe i'm just dumb, but a little clarification into what exactly crumbled?