Conservative Governments

[Black Dog]

Which one's are crumbling, or were crumbling? I never understand that. Why does cutbacks automatically mean things are worsening, to some people? Its not how much you spend but how you spend it. If the infrastructure took such a hard blow, why are the roads, hospitals, and education system the best in the country and were basically the best during the crumbling of the alberta infrastructure, as you put it. Alberta had the highest standard of living in the country throughout the Klein cutbacks. Maybe i'm just dumb, but a little clarification into what exactly crumbled?

Where have you been? Alberta's municipal infrastructure debt, according to the Canada West foundation, currently stands at around $8 billion. Both Edmonton and Calgary (not to mention smaller communities with smaller economic bases) are having difficulty maintaining their roads, sidewalks, seweres etc. Edmonton did a review of its infrstructur in 2002 and found that 58 per cent of its assests could be classified in "good" condition, 29 per cent was "fair" and 13 per cent was "poor". This is because of the strain of growth and limited revenues available to municipalities.

Schols and health facilities are doing better, but are still suffering and, in many cases, eroding.

So I'd be interested to see what you're basing your belief that Alberta's roads, hospitals, and education system are the best in the country.

[CrazyCanuck]

Education system, well, i think that it is common knowledge that Alberta students do substantially better in reading, math and science testing, mainly because of the standardized system.

The roads are the best and i base that on experience. I live in Ontario right now, before that i was in BC, and if Albertans think that their transportation systems are poor, they need to leave the province and just open their eyes.

The health care system is something that i don't know a lot of details about, but again, just based on experience, i received better care in Alberta, not a lot better, but it was better. (In ontario, they have a huge shortage of doctors and they seem more concerned about whether or not you have an Ontario health card than if you are sick.)

Your percentages that showed only 13% were in poor condition really seems to prove my point because 13 % isn't that bad at all (be realistic, not everything can be perfect. If it were, nothing would be perfect, right?). Now i'm not saying that ALberta doesn't have its faults, of course it does, but it has fewer than the other provinces.

[Leader Circle]

Granted my friend, that all the great business policies you have there attract the alpha personalities, both corporate and individual. But does that give you the right to criticize all others? With such an arrogant attitude to boot?

Personally, I wouldn't want to move there specifically for the economic regions. As long as I can get by, and raise a good family, I'm aight.

This thinking of people as being defined by their groups is horse-$%^&. I'll agree with an earlier post in saying that we should think of others as fellow humans, and do what is necessary to let the maximum number of people live a healthy good life.

IRT #46:

It is just you. Lots of friendly people in central Canada

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reason I moved here was to get ahead not get by! This is the land of plenty and granted the Klein gov't has been lacking in some needed areas, but for the most part we have much more than other provinces. Klein has lost interest in provincial politics and is letting the province suffer somewhat because of it, but our "suffering" is still a better life than many provinces. The last election is proof that Klein support is falling and with it maybe the Conservative strangle hold on Alberta. Most of rural or urban Alberta is more to the right and if the Cons bring a viable candidate to the front, they will probably stay in. When business starts to decline, people tend to fall back to the left a bit and need more gov't intervention. During the boom we are now enjoying, most will vote for the Cons, because free enterprise lines most people's pockets here.

I lived in Ontario during the Bob Rae years and what a pathetic excuse for a gov't. He was the undisputed king of mismanagement!!! I remember being at the skydome and it was full, 60,000 people jeering when Bob Rae's face was on the big screen!! He was a hated man by the time an election rolled around and the Cons were a welcome sight to the NDP fiasco!

Actually, CrazyCanuck, like any place, you'll have good & bad. From my time in Ontario, I found there were very nice people and snobs, depending on where you were. For it's size, I felt very safe living there and found that, despite the huge diversity of cultures, it was a fairly friendly city! In contrast, if you were from the west, people did tend to treat you different than if you were from the east. Central Canada does seem somewhat intolerant of westerners.

Quebec, I have found, are intolerant to most anglophones from outside of their border. I found many Quebecers to be very mean & ignorant if you wanted to communicate in English.

The strippers in Quebec are a friendly bunch though, I can assure you!!!! They are also some of Canada's finest, although that is another topic!!

By far, Newfies are the nicest people in the world!! Look at what they did for Sept 11th in Grand Falls(I think) when they housed some 5000 stranded plane passengers.

Gotta love the Newfies!!!

[SirSpanky]

Yeah, too many people I think want to get "ahead"; whatever that means.

Hehe, I like their accents. When they tell stories, I'll laugh my bum off even if its not funny.

[Black Dog]

Education system, well, i think that it is common knowledge that Alberta students do substantially better in reading, math and science testing, mainly because of the standardized system.

Be that as it may, there's no denying that costs are also increasing in education, while post secondary education is getting out of reach for many.

The roads are the best and i base that on experience. I live in Ontario right now, before that i was in BC, and if Albertans think that their transportation systems are poor, they need to leave the province and just open their eyes.

I guess Alberta's municipal associations, think tanks like the CWF and teh provincial government themselves are full of crap when they talk about the infrastructure debt, hey?

Now i'm not saying that ALberta doesn't have its faults, of course it does, but it has fewer than the other provinces.

You don't seem particularily inclined to cop to any of them, though.

[I Miss Trudeau]

(be realistic, not everything can be perfect. If it were, nothing would be perfect, right?).

Not to nitpick, but if everything were pefrect, wouldn't everything have to be perfect?

Thats kind of like saying "If Alberta was the best province in Canada, then there couldn't be a best province in Canda."

[Melanie_]

And besides, i'm just basing my opinion on the results from national tests.  When grade 9 students from each province all write the exact same math or science test, and Alberta students consistently do better than everyone else (the most recent science testing showed substantially better results from Alberta over everyone else), I will conclude that they have a stronger education system overall. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't put much faith in kids from all over the country writing the same test, and then judging the systems based on this. This would only be a valid measure if the same curriculum was taught to all the children writing the test. But with each province setting it's own curriculum, you don't know if the kids have been exposed to the same concepts on the same timeline. This could mean some children learn something in grade 8, then don't do as well on this standardized test because the knowledge isn't as fresh. Or, they will cover it in grade 10, but have covered other concepts that weren't on the test, or in their peer's curriculums, in grade 9. These tests would be skewed to favour kids in the jurisdiction in which it was set.

But I do agree with you that kids strengths have to be recognized and nurtured. The pursuit of academics is so rampant in our society, that we don't always value the gifts people bring that aren't tied to formal education.

[Riverwind]

I don't put much faith in kids from all over the country writing the same test, and then judging the systems based on this. This would only be a valid measure if the same curriculum was taught to all the children writing the test.

We have standardized testing in BC that is used to rank schools. The schools that do well are often schools that specifically prepare the students for the exam by having the practice similar exam questions. Does this mean that the students at the schools with higher marks are getting a better education? Maybe. Maybe not - the test is not a completely accurate measurement.

[CrazyCanuck]

(be realistic, not everything can be perfect. If it were, nothing would be perfect, right?).

Not to nitpick, but if everything were pefrect, wouldn't everything have to be perfect?

Thats kind of like saying "If Alberta was the best province in Canada, then there couldn't be a best province in Canda."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, its like saying that if every province in Canada was the best, none would be the best. Because to be the best, you must be better than worst. Without something being the worst, nothing can be the best. Just like to be perfect, you must be without imperfection, however if there is no imperfection, being perfect loses all value. Don't worry, i'm the one thats nitpicking anyways.

[Guest eureka]

If imperfection is all there is, then imperfection is perfection since it is the optimal condition for the conditions.

[Cartman]

Hey Black Dog, right-wingers agree with you. The Alberta Alliance thinks that health care "premiums" are a regressive tax as does the Fraser Institute. Only Ralph supporters believe that a health-care premium is different from a tax, a fee, a duty, an excise, a levy, a toll etc. etc. They should remember that there are several layers of government (tax collectors), but only one level of taxpayer. Why we have these health-care premiums (remember not to call them "TAXES" which are bad in this province) when we are supposedly making bank on oil is beyond me.

This is called "postmodern accounting". Simply rename a tax and you can collect all you need in the name of reducing taxes!

[kimmy]

Where have you been? Alberta's municipal infrastructure debt, according to the Canada West foundation, currently stands at around $8 billion. Both Edmonton and Calgary (not to mention smaller communities with smaller economic bases) are having difficulty maintaining their roads, sidewalks, seweres etc. Edmonton did a review of its infrstructur in 2002  and found that 58 per cent of its assests could be classified in "good" condition, 29 per cent was "fair" and 13 per cent was "poor". This is because of the strain of growth and limited revenues available to municipalities.

Schols and health facilities are doing better, but are still suffering and,  in many cases, eroding.

So I'd be interested to see what you're basing your belief that Alberta's roads, hospitals, and education system are the best in the country.

Alberta's cities might be suffering the effects of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure... but I'm skeptical whether that issue is unique to this province. In fact, I've heard it's something of a national issue...

Issues like quality of education and access to healthcare can be quantified to a point using statistical means like standardized testing (ours are exceptional) and waiting-list times (ours are middle-of-the-pack, I believe). The accessability of post-secondary should be quantifyable by looking at tuition-fees (ours were about middle-of-the-pack, last time I checked) and the number of students our post-secondary institutions can accomodate.

-k

[Black Dog]

Alberta's cities might be suffering the effects of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure... but I'm skeptical whether that issue is unique to this province. In fact, I've heard it's something of a national issue...

It is indeed a national issue. However, Alberta is unique in that it has been one of the few provinces that could actually afford to keep up their infrastructure. Instead, the province focused on debt repayment as its main priority, which is kinda like worrying about your mortgage payments when your roof is caving in.

[cybercoma]

Alberta's cities might be suffering the effects of chronic underinvestment in infrastructure... but I'm skeptical whether that issue is unique to this province. In fact, I've heard it's something of a national issue...

It is indeed a national issue. However, Alberta is unique in that it has been one of the few provinces that could actually afford to keep up their infrastructure. Instead, the province focused on debt repayment as its main priority, which is kinda like worrying about your mortgage payments when your roof is caving in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

maybe those municipalities need to learn how to spend their money a little more wisely.

[Black Dog]

maybe those municipalities need to learn how to spend their money a little more wisely.

Municipalities are stuck with a single primary source of revenue (property taxes) that does not keep up with the demands of rapid population and economic growth (not to mention that the province also digs its fingers into that particular pie). Add on downloading of services from the province and cuts to provincial transfers and its amazing that municipalities have been able to maintain basic services and balanced budgets at all.

[kimmy]

It is indeed a national issue. However, Alberta is unique in that it has been one of the few provinces that could actually afford to keep up their infrastructure. Instead, the province focused on debt repayment as its main priority, which is kinda like worrying about your mortgage payments when your roof is caving in.

Well, I'm not convinced that the Klein gov't are particularly wise custodians of our wealth. I think, overall, that having the debt repaid was probably a good idea. Like having your student loans paid off before you buy a new car.

I do think that more investment in the cities and infrastructure should be "the Alberta Advantage" now that the debt is paid off. The explosive growth of Calgary, Edmonton, and especially cities and towns in the north like Fort McMurray, Grande Prairie, and High Level, makes it a necessity. I know that Fort McMisery, for sure, is utterly unable to cope with the spending demands its ridiculously rapid growth is placing on it. I can't vouch for Calgary, but here in Edmonton the city is spending a lot of money to catch up with growth (particularly after many years of bad planning under Mayors Smith and Reimer...) and has accelerated a number of major capital projects... and the city has decided to borrow a lot of money to do so. I am sure other cities in the province face the same choice. And there is no reason for the cities to be going back into debt while the province sits on huge surpluses generated by the very growth that is forcing cities to spend more and more to meet these demands.

Growth is creating new demands, especially in the north of the province where so much of this new wealth is coming from and where the infrastructure is so poorly prepared for the demands it is now facing. Highway 63 is now completely inadequate for the volume of traffic it faces, especially around Fort McMisery. Klein floated the idea of a high-speed rail-link between Edmonton and Fort McMurray, and although most people reacted like he was back on the sauce, I think it could wind up being an investment that pays for itself down the road.

The government has to understand that without investing in infrastructure, our growth is going to choke us.

-k

[Argus]

maybe those municipalities need to learn how to spend their money a little more wisely.

Municipalities are stuck with a single primary source of revenue (property taxes) that does not keep up with the demands of rapid population and economic growth (not to mention that the province also digs its fingers into that particular pie). Add on downloading of services from the province and cuts to provincial transfers and its amazing that municipalities have been able to maintain basic services and balanced budgets at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That doesn't wash. My city, Ottawa, has one of the most misbegotten, idiotic city councils I can ever remember. Every year is a major budgt fight as to how much taxes will increase - always well above inflation. And every year they keep enormously expensive items which benefit few people, but are the pet projects of various councillors or the mayor. Last time around the most notorious item, aside from arts group grants, was a new pedestrian bridge over the Rideau canal, supposedly to help people on one side get to the other side, where there was a bus transit station. Except the people on the one side were filthy rich and were most unlikely to be taking transit anywhere. And, of course, a continuing high expense is a LRT line which runs, basically, from nowhere to nowhere and benefits almost no one, but which is the mayor's pet project and which seems certain to be expanded at enormous cost to little benefit. No, if my city is any example there is lots of fat which could be cut if there was only the will to do so.