Was Canada Just Too Good To Be True?

[bigdude]

Was Canada Just Too Good to Be True?

The news from Canada has been very un-Canadian of late. Or has it?

A government program sponsoring sporting and cultural events in Quebec has been tainted by allegations of millions of dollars in kickbacks and money laundering. Witnesses before a federal inquiry into the scandal have described envelopes full of cash left on restaurant tables to advance the cause of the governing Liberal Party.

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Christinne Muschi/Reuters

Paul Martin, prime minister under a cloud, at a recent town hall meeting. A round of national introspection is evident.

But even as the "sponsorship scandal" has unfolded, one unseemly chapter after another, Prime Minister Paul Martin has held fast, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, to a cherished Liberal Party script: Canada as a singularly virtuous country that adheres more than most to values like honesty, decency, fairness and multiethnic equality, not to mention publicly financed universal health care.

"We will set the standard by which other nations judge themselves," Mr. Martin boasted to his party caucus only minutes after his government was saved on May 19 by a single vote in the House of Commons - the vote of a lawmaker who had turned her back not only on the Conservative Party, which she helped found only a year ago, but on her boyfriend, a Conservative leader, in return for a Liberal cabinet seat.

This notion of national rectitude and compassion, long promoted by the Liberals, has been captured in the slogan of a national book chain: "The world needs more Canada."

Of course, quite a few nations have an embellished sense of righteousness, not least among them, many would say, Canada's southern neighbor. But perhaps no other country puts such a high premium on its own virtue than does Canada.

"That's why the sponsorship scandal stings as much as it does," said Janice Stein, director of the Munk Center for International Studies at the University of Toronto. With a touch of irony, she added, "We're not like this; we're nice and good."

The recent spectacle of scandal and tawdry politics has some Canadians now wondering if all the self-congratulatory virtue is not mixed with some old-fashioned hypocrisy, or what Robert Fulford, a leading literary journalist and columnist characterizes as "a fable" expounded by generations of Liberal leaders.

"During recent decades our politicians have told us a sweet bedtime story about Canada being an exceptionally compassionate country, a world leader in multiculturalism and wonderfully generous to the poor countries," Mr. Fulford said. "All of this expresses something called 'Canadian values.' All lies."

Intesesting assessment of our society, not necessarily entirely accurate however this article is a good read. We obviously have to do something to pull up our socks. I'm not sure we can take too much more reality.

[I miss Reagan]

Interestingly a good friend called me from Russia last night to tell me how he'd just read an article in a Russian newspaper about how Canada ranked at the top of corruption among developed countries. Now, you know you've got a problem when Russia is calling you corrupt.

[bigdude]

I'm not hyperbole is going to help us address our shortcomings.

[I miss Reagan]

I'm not hyperbole is going to help us address our shortcomings. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you need to review your definition of hyperbole duude

[Riverwind]

Interestingly a good friend called me from Russia last night to tell me how he'd just read an article in a Russian newspaper about how Canada ranked at the top of corruption among developed countries.  Now, you know you've got a problem when Russia is calling you corrupt.

The study must be based on the number of media stories about corruption.

[bigdude]

Given their track record I don't think many people would take a comment from Russia concerning corruption very seriously.

What's that expression: "Calling the kettle black or something like that"?

[I miss Reagan]

Given their track record I don't think many people would take a comment from Russia concerning corruption very seriously.

What's that expression: "Calling the kettle black or something like that"?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was kinda the point:

Now, you know you've got a problem when Russia is calling you corrupt.

[RightWinger]

Again IMR if you check what I wrote in the "Stephen Harper" post, you'd understand why big dude wrote that. Anyone know Bill Engvall? bigdude....Here's your sign!!

As far as the world view of Canada, we are a bunch of peace loving morons who will let any old terrorist or extremist into our country. We have great BC pot and high alcohol percentage beer. We ride snowmobiles to work and live in igloos. Yet, we have to be proud of our strong, "standard setting" Liberal party! Pierre Trudeau was the shitbird that started it all! Good old national energy program or the national deficit. It's actually funny, after Trudeau died they wanted to name a mountain in the west after him. As you can guess it didn't fly that well! Mind you Mulrooney wasn't the Conservatives finest moment!

In general Canadians are viewed as harmless people, now with the Liberal corruption, the world is starting to see that we are pulling more to the left and are willing to be corrupted and controlled by the minorities.

Don't you just love politically correctness?

I don't want to join the states, but I'm not a proud Canadian. At least Americans are proud of their country!

[Riverwind]

In general Canadians are viewed as harmless people, now with the Liberal corruption, the world is starting to see that we are pulling more to the left and are willing to be corrupted and controlled by the minorities.

Give me a break. The corruption scandal that has so consumed the Canadian media is a isolated incident that will be forgotten about in 2-3 years. There is no systematic problem with corruption in Canada.

Here are some numbers from http://www.icgg.org/corruption.cpi_2004.html

1 Finland 9.7

2 New Zealand 9.6

3 Denmark 9.5

3 Iceland 9.5

5 Singapore 9.3

6 Sweden 9.2

7 Switzerland 9.1

8 Norway 8.9

9 Australia 8.8

10 Netherlands 8.7

11 United Kingdom 8.6

12 Canada 8.5

13 Austria 8.4

13 Luxembourg 8.4

15 Germany 8.2

16 Hong Kong 8.0

17 Belgium 7.5

17 Ireland 7.5

17 USA 7.5

Gee, looks like good old USA is the bottom of the heap when it comes to corruption in developed countries. I would put more weight on that website than some unnamed study in a russian newspaper.

[I miss Reagan]

Interesting, but I wonder if the study was done by Canadians from Ontario .

And wonder what the study will look like when Gomery is finished and when they find out where that missing 400 million that dissappeared into thin air out of the gun registry went to. And what is this obsession that you libs have with comparing everything to the US? You guys just love to bring them into every debate. I'll try to find the Russian article, but I imagine it might be difficult given my limited Russian.

[Black Dog]

In general Canadians are viewed as harmless people, now with the Liberal corruption, the world is starting to see that we are pulling more to the left and are willing to be corrupted and controlled by the minorities.

[bigdude]

I find it quite amazing how people come here and post messages about how they dislike or hate their country Canada. No one is forcing anyone to stay here - we are a free society where people are able to get up and leave if they are unhappy here. As a matter of fact I would recommend that all the unhappy Canadians leave Canada as apparently you would all be much better off somewhere else.

What a bunch of whiners.

[August1991]

Gee, looks like good old USA is the bottom of the heap when it comes to corruption in developed countries.

A German thinktank invents an arbitrary index and the US winds up at the bottom of the list. Am I supposed to be surprised?

This is the real news:

Corruption is rampant in 60 countries, and the public sector is plagued by bribery, says TI

Same web site as above

IOW, a bigger public sector is the obvious solution to Third World problems.

-----

Corruption in Canada or the US or Germany works very differently from corruption in Africa or Eastern Europe. In Canada, petty bribery exists but it is far from rampant.

Where Canada excels is that the Liberal Party gave government money to "friends" who then fed the money back to the Liberal Party. Worse, as Gilles Duceppe said, "they tried to buy our soul".

I somehow doubt that Transparency International includes that kind of corruption in its index.

[I miss Reagan]

I find it quite amazing how people come here and post messages about how they dislike or hate their country Canada. No one is forcing anyone to stay here - we are a free society where people are able to get up and leave if they are unhappy here. As a matter of fact I would recommend that all the unhappy Canadians leave Canada as apparently you would all be much better off somewhere else.

What a bunch of whiners. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about being a little more realistic. You expect people who were born and raised here to just pick up and leave the lives they've established here? I think a lot of people are willing to leave for the US, and many do, but it's tough to get in. Perhaps you should ask the leftist Albertans on the forum, like Black Dog, I Miss Trudeau, and Takeanumber why they don't leave Alberta. But I have a better idea, why don't you just help Quebec and Alberta to separate? That'd solve a bunch of problems wouldn't it.

[August1991]

BTW, BigDude, I wasn't impressed by that NYT article. It listed a few common ideas people talk about in Ottawa, but skipped many, many others. You'll notice too that the article seems to point to Alberta or Quebec as the source of Canada's problems.

The environmental stuff made me laugh because it missed these facts which would have helped the journalist's point:

Canada accounts for 42 per cent of all lead air pollution in North America, a new study from the Commission for Environmental Co-operation said in an annual report.

G & M

[Riverwind]

Where Canada excels is that the Liberal Party gave government money to "friends" who then fed the money back to the Liberal Party.  Worse, as Gilles Duceppe said, "they tried to buy our soul".

I somehow doubt that Transparency International includes that kind of corruption in its index.

How is this different than US legislators that collect duties on Canadian softwood lumber and then pay these duties to companies which contribute to their campaigns?

Politicians giving government contracts to companies that support their re-election is a very common practice. That said, the Gomery inquiry is finding out that these kinds of kickbacks were combined with project management incompetance (i.e. bureaucrats failing to ensure value for money) and a few inviduals engaging in outright fraud and theft for personal gain.

It may be the 'perfect storm' but It still does not mean that this kind of corruption is rampant in Canada.

[bigdude]

The difference is they are not whining about their country every day like it is some Russian Goolag like you are. You can always come up with excuses not to do something. As if the US would want Canadian malcontents anyway.

[Riverwind]

Canada accounts for 42 per cent of all lead air pollution in North America, a new study from the Commission for Environmental Co-operation said in an annual report.

And all of that pollution froms from large metal smelters in Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba. What the article did not say was:

1) What percentage of the NA metal smelter output comes from Canada?

2) Are Canadian metal smelters worse polluters than their counterparts in the US?

If the answer to these questions is 'large' and 'no' then that study is not giving the correct context.

Similar, deceptive stats exist when it comes to greenhouse gas. Digging up fossil fuels produces CO2. Is it really fair to penalize Canada for C02 emissions caused by natural gas production if it turns around and ships that natural gas to the US which the US uses to reduce its CO2 emissions.

[I miss Reagan]

As if the US would want Canadian malcontents anyway. 

Hey that's what I've been saying all along! That's why they like us Albertans so much, we hate whining liberals.

[August1991]

How is this different than US legislators that collect duties on Canadian softwood lumber and then pay these duties to companies which contribute to their campaigns?

Once again, are you suggesting that we use US behaviour to justify our own? In any case, I see a difference between what the Liberals did and what US politicians do.

How would people on this forum respond if it became known that Bush Jnr had been funneling secret illegal cash to Harper and the Conservatives?

Politicians giving government contracts to companies that support their re-election is a very common practice.

Right. Of course. They're all corrupt. I'm the naive fool here.

Sorry, I think you're wrong. I don't think such payments are right and it should not be a common practice. They are not a factor in Quebec provincial politics.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you cannot fool all of the all of the time.

This is certainly no way to make the federalist case in Quebec.

[Riverwind]

Sorry, I think you're wrong.  I don't think such payments are right and it should not be a common practice.  They are not a factor in Quebec provincial politics.

I don't think it is right either, however, I think you are wrong to suggest that such things are only a problem with federalists in Quebec or with the liberal party. It occurs in many other situations.

Quebec fixed the problem by eliminating corporate donations many years ago. Correct? This restriction now exists at the federal level too which should prevent a similar scandal from happening again. I would also like to see regulations that prevent a company that makes political donations from bidding on gov't contracts.

[PatM]

Pierre Trudeau was the shitbird that started it all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, and that "shitbird" Conservative Mulroney balooned the debt outa the park.

Stats Can Chart check the Net Federal Debt Chart at the top of the list. Trudeau was kicked out in 1979.

To be fair to both people, the debt was the result of Pearson's (Liberal Party) gutting of the Bank Act in 1967 more than any other single factor.

[bigdude]

I would also like to see regulations that prevent a company that makes political donations from bidding on gov't contracts

Well I would certainly like to see Canwest and the other MSM stop their massive financial contributions to the BC liberals or any other political party.

These payments border on what happens in a totalitarianism society and deny us a free press or free media as it now called.

[bigdude]

Sorry, I think you're wrong. I don't think such payments are right and it should not be a common practice. They are not a factor in Quebec provincial politics.

Since when?

Ever heard of Duplessis?

He was a Quebecker pure line as Parizeau would say, a francophone Quebec politician, and corrupt as hell.

My purpose here is not to denigrate Quebeckers nor francophones but to suggest they are any less croocked than any other group in Canadian society is NOT on.

Come on August, you can do better than that.

[RightWinger]

I find it quite amazing how people come here and post messages about how they dislike or hate their country Canada. No one is forcing anyone to stay here - we are a free society where people are able to get up and leave if they are unhappy here. As a matter of fact I would recommend that all the unhappy Canadians leave Canada as apparently you would all be much better off somewhere else.

What a bunch of whiners. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey bigdude, I can trace my family roots in Canada back to the early 1700's, what about you?

So, if you expect me to leave Canada, you're on crack! For me to "whine" about the issues that we face in Canada is my goddamn given right! My family was here before most of these wingnuts causing us all the grief! If my ancestors had have been bigger bigots and wiped out these people, like the newfies & the beothuks, we wouldn't be having these discussions!!! In this day and age, I'm not allowed to say stuff like that, because it makes me a bigot, but how can I not be a bigot to see how the white, english, straight male has been on the shitty end of every negotiation! The Liberal & NDP are here to ensure that it will always be this way from now on!

So if anyone is leaving this country, it will be these artsy fartsy, tree-huggin', gay-lovin' left wing socialist pricks! With our redneck ways, we may have to take it back to the old days and start wiping all of you out. I believe the Yugoslavians call it "ethnic cleansing"! Maybe that would be an effective way of handling these situations?? What do you think? Does it seem a little extreme?