Is ITQ Quotas Morally Right?

[Digby]

Probly most of you are not interested in Canadas Fishing laws . I just thought i would throw this topic out there in hopes of educating you on the truths of Canadas Fishery .

ITQ = Individual Transferable Quota

People actually own the fish swimming in Canadas Oceans , You have to buy them before you can go Fishing to catch them.

Ownership of our resources is based on a 4 year period from 1987 -1991. The best 2 of the 4 years was used to give you your share of the TAC (total allouable catch).Ownership of these resources is for eternity .

Back then businessmen owned most licences (not the fishermen). So the majority of the ownership of our marine resources is held by businessmen. These business men actually plotted this system and because of them actually helping to design the future they in the 4 year perriod had a crystal ball that most fishermen did not have. The end result is a handfull of business men owning all quota.

Some who knew the future was actually misreporting on log slips so as to inflate their catches . The ones who never knew the future was alot of the time not marking their catches.

The ones who knew the future went and found sources of laundered money (Boston fish dealers were mofia controled). Their was cases of fishermen being offered (what seemed like)large sums of money in cash on the end of warfes in brief cases for their fishing licences.

Fish like red fish and black back flounders had no quotas in them years . so when boat loads of cod and pollack were stolen by crooked fishing companies with a crystal ball on the future .they mis marked them as red fish and flounders. Some companies now have very ,very large red fish and flounder quotas and in truth .they never caught any flounders or red fish ,its all lies.

The result of these lies was boats that never fished redfish or flounder haveing large quotas of them on paper . Once on paper its beleaved they have to be caught ,you can't lose these paper fish.

So vessels actually fish harder then before , driveing for these red fish and flounders that never did exist .BUT cod ,and pollack live in the same areas as flounders and redfish often . So vessels would stay in areas with some flounders and lots of cod .With no cod quota . They would fish 2-4 days in cod throwing the cod back dead and keeping a handfull of flounders . I suspect that sometimes 100,000 lbs of cod is dumped back dead to get 10,000 -20,000 of flounders.(All because of lies)

Most of these business men once getting ownership of our resources .Sold all their boats . (if they even had one to begin with). They just set back now and sell the fish to fishermen before they are caught .

The price normally is about half of what the fish are worth . But alot of times they want more then half.

I know of cases where they charge .60 cents for the quota then force the fishermen to sell to them for .40 . So the fisherman had to take a .20 cent loss to bring the fish to the warfe. Some fishermen had to throw fish back dead so they could go ahead on other speices.

One fisherman told me in 50 days fishing he landed 1,100,000 dollars worth of fish on his deck . He threw 600,000 dollars worth back dead . He had to pay 300,000 dollars in ITQ fees to these rich businessmen. He was left with 200,000 .

Out of the 200,000 he had to pay Boat payments , Boat upkeep , Gear bills , Supplies . And crews wages .

Out of the 300,000 the business men paid nothing( 0).

To sell these fish on a permanent bases the price is 6.00 a lb .

Some of these business men sold out to the Goverment (the only buyer) who was buying to give to native bands .

One guy sold 3,000,000 . He got 18,000,000 dollars to pocket of tax payers money.

one guy sold 2,000,000 . He got 12,000 ,000 dollars. i think 30% of the quota was bought for native bands (1% of population) . The natives in return lease the quotas back to same people the goverment bought it from for almost nothing in alot of cases ..

Does it sound like this system is morally right? Canada gets my vote as the most corrupt fishery on earth .

[August1991]

Does it sound like this system is morally right? Canada gets my vote as the most corrupt fishery on earth .

The government should have done this a long time ago, Digby. I suspect that if fisheries were a provincial jurisdiction, it would have been and the cod fishery would still thrive now. It is the only way to protect the fishery.

The system is used elsewhere (Iceland, New Zealand) to good effect.

The end result is a handfull of business men owning all quota.

How did that happen?

[Digby]

Corrupt lieing lobbiest , Very Corrupt fisheries beuracrates, Very Ignorant dumb fisheries beuracrates.

mofia money

lazy scientist .

propaganda .

A gulible public who really know nothing about the real situations.

The power all being in ottawa instead of in coastal comunities that use the resources.

Are just some of the reasons i guess .

So you don't mind 18,000,000 of taxpayers money going to a business man who may have mofia behind him?

[Digby]

Who told you the system had good affects in New Zealand where our sytem was designed after . It almost wiped out certain species. I hear Orange roughpy was all but wiped out by this system.

They hide the facts .

This is wipeing our cod out and all fishermen know it and can't stop it

[caesar]

. The ones who never knew the future was alot of the time not marking their catches

You mean the ones fishing illegally or over fishing????

Quotas are used for many things; there are even quotas on milk; how much a farmer can ship. Quotas are worth money; if a fisherman sold his quotas for a fast buck; that is his problem. Quotas are used to allow every fisherman the right to catch a fair catch and control the number of new fishermen. You need a quota to fish, I presume.

[moderateamericain]

. The ones who never knew the future was alot of the time not marking their catches

You mean the ones fishing illegally or over fishing????

Quotas are used for many things; there are even quotas on milk; how much a farmer can ship. Quotas are worth money; if a fisherman sold his quotas for a fast buck; that is his problem. Quotas are used to allow every fisherman the right to catch a fair catch and control the number of new fishermen. You need a quota to fish, I presume.

could you source that for me, id like to find some data about that.

[Digby]

They was not lieing in their log books like missmarking cod for redfish.

also they may of been slack about handing in log slips , where as the ones with the crystal balls was marking every thing they could mark ,ive even heard of people marking fish on their licences that other boats caught.

If we was all in a life boat with only so much food to feed us ,do you think the great big 500 lb man aboard with us should get 10 times as much food ,because he had been eating the most in the past?

maybe even let the rest starve so the 500 lb man can stay nice and fat? Would that be good goverment?

Why im so against ITQ quotas (along with i don't beleave its a conservation measure ) is its supposed to be based on individuals history of useing the ocean. But the truth is most ITQ quota is owned by people with no history at all ,or little history of ever being on the ocean.

I my self have never had a single paycheck from land (never did any thing but fished), I was the youngest captain of a fishing boat in Canada at one point . At 40 i have 23 years in as a fishing captain. I got no History what soever according to our goverment of useing the ocean. Many many like me aeround here .

Almost all the quota is owned by men that never been aboard a boat in their lives.or else only fished for 1-2 years . So for eternity i have to pay about all the profit from my fishing efforts to these land loveing business men or their offspring. I know men that was granted quotas on appeals that never fished a day groundfishing before or after . They can draw 100,000 a year for eternity from working mens labour .

The fishermen in most cases can't make a cent while the quota holders make hundreds of thousands a year off the fishermens efforts . The fishermen put their lives in danger , work in harsh weather , work hours of 100 hours a week pluss . And are lucky to pay their bills at years end . The business men go golfing , travel , watcht tv . just enjoy life . and some make hundreds of thousands or even millions a year . By useing goverment power to say they own the fish before they are caught.

Now maybe im coveting , maybe if i was a ITQ holder i too would be for it . But it just don't seem right to me this ITQ system. It is not a conservation measure its done nothing to protect fish stocks . Actually made things worse .

Alot of countrys Outlawed this system. I think in the US its illeagal.

[The Terrible Sweal]

People actually own the fish swimming in Canadas Oceans , You have to buy them before you can go Fishing to catch them.

Ownership of our resources is based on a 4 year period from 1987 -1991. The best 2 of the 4 years was used to give you your share of the TAC (total allouable catch).Ownership of these resources is for eternity .

This represents a problem, in my opinion. They have the same problem with taxi licenses in some cities. The government has created a 'property-like interest' over entitlements which by their nature cannot be properly made into a property 'right'.

A much better system would be for the state to lease out quota year over year, in lots, in a transparent auction process.

[Digby]

The fishermen have to buy the fish up front before going fishing each spring . 1/2 the value up front of their years catch . What business could run on half and make a profit ? And pay every expence out of their half.

If the fish are not in the ocean the fishermen lose .

If the market crashes (happens alot ) the fishermen lose .

trying to make a profit with this much risk is almost imposible , but fishermen like me are driven to it because fishing is all we ever did . So not much good at any thing else .

So the men with a history of fishing are being driven out by men with no history what so ever on the grounds of history . Sounds like Corruption too me .

I think if the public of Canada knew the truths of ITQ it would make the quebec sponcer ship scandle look like a joke .

I think If the truth of DFOs policys was ever able to get out into the public . heads would roll .

DFO just needs to blame seals and foreingers and thats all the public needs to hear . People now shoot seals becauce they get the blame for cod fish distruction instead of DFO . A DFO scientist told me at a meeting last year .THAt never before in history has a seal been found to have remains of codfish in their stomack, But its a nice place to put the blame .

Foreiners ,well they got one the other day outside our limit with small mesh cod end on . But what they don't tell the public is they probly sailed by 10-20 canadian boats doing the same thing on there way out on their propaganda run.

Our fish have disapeared from 2 things : GREED .Unharnesed Greed . like in a ITQ holder that would actually charge a boat more for quota then he was paying the boat for the fish. Its too the point where young fishermen don't care any more . The way they look at it is , If this ocean is going to belong to that greedy ,crooked ,corrupt , ITQ business man for eternity , WHO CARES!

Total 100% mismanagement , DFO beuracrates in my opinion are either very ,very evil . Or else very ,very dumb. Probly would help if the ones in Ottawa hundreds of miles from the ocean listened to ones liveing with fishermen . But no they have absolute power over our oceans ,and don't really know a thing about our oceans ,but can't admit it . They only ones they listen too are rich and powerfull friends and Lieing lobiest.

[Digby]

The fishermen have to buy the fish up front before going fishing each spring . 1/2 the value up front of their years catch . What business could run on half and make a profit ? And pay every expence out of their half.

If the fish are not in the ocean the fishermen lose .

If the market crashes (happens alot ) the fishermen lose .

trying to make a profit with this much risk is almost imposible , but fishermen like me are driven to it because fishing is all we ever did . So not much good at any thing else .

So the men with a history of fishing are being driven out by men with no history what so ever on the grounds of history . Sounds like Corruption too me .

I think if the public of Canada knew the truths of ITQ it would make the quebec sponcer ship scandle look like a joke .

I think If the truth of DFOs policys was ever able to get out into the public . heads would roll .

DFO just needs to blame seals and foreingers and thats all the public needs to hear . People now shoot seals becauce they get the blame for cod fish distruction instead of DFO . A DFO scientist told me at a meeting last year .THAt never before in history has a seal been found to have remains of codfish in their stomack, But its a nice place to put the blame .

Foreiners ,well they got one the other day outside our limit with small mesh cod end on . But what they don't tell the public is they probly sailed by 10-20 canadian boats doing the same thing on there way out on their propaganda run.

Our fish have disapeared from 2 things : GREED .Unharnesed Greed . like in a ITQ holder that would actually charge a boat more for quota then he was paying the boat for the fish. Its too the point where young fishermen don't care any more . The way they look at it is , If this ocean is going to belong to that greedy ,crooked ,corrupt , ITQ business man for eternity , WHO CARES!

Total 100% mismanagement , DFO beuracrates in my opinion are either very ,very evil . Or else very ,very dumb. Probly would help if the ones in Ottawa hundreds of miles from the ocean listened to ones liveing with fishermen . But no they have absolute power over our oceans ,and don't really know a thing about our oceans ,but can't admit it . They only ones they listen too are rich and powerfull friends and Lieing lobiest.

[August1991]

This represents a problem, in my opinion. They have the same problem with taxi licenses in some cities. The government has created a 'property-like interest' over entitlements which by their nature cannot be properly made into a property 'right'.

The taxi license is an arbitrary restriction. The ITQ is to prevent the Tragedy of the Commons.

A much better system would be for the state to lease out quota year over year, in lots, in a transparent auction process.

How is that different from what the government did? IOW, what prevents someone from leasing a quota from an owner?

Almost all the quota is owned by men that never been aboard a boat in their lives.or else only fished for 1-2 years . So for eternity i have to pay about all the profit from my fishing efforts to these land loveing business men or their offspring.

Digby, do you own your own boat or do you have a mortgage on it? Do you know of any fishermen that lease their boats?

Our fish have disapeared from 2 things : GREED .Unharnesed Greed .

Digby, are you not greedy yourself? Or do you give your fish away for free?

[The Terrible Sweal]

This represents a problem, in my opinion. They have the same problem with taxi licenses in some cities. The government has created a 'property-like interest' over entitlements which by their nature cannot be properly made into a property 'right'.

The taxi license is an arbitrary restriction. The ITQ is to prevent the Tragedy of the Commons.

Too many taxis would create a loss of public welfare just like too much fishing.

A much better system would be for the state to lease out quota year over year, in lots, in a transparent auction process.

How is that different from what the government did? IOW, what prevents someone from leasing a quota from an owner?

Apparently the government created a lifetime entitlement, not a temporary license. Leasing quota from an 'owner' does not solve the problem that quota should not be converted into some lifetime entitlement.

[August1991]

Too many taxis would create a loss of public welfare just like too much fishing.

Too many taxis would cause a loss of private welfare and a few would quit the business. Or do you suggest we create a licensing system for coffee shops? (Heck we may have done that.)

The problem with fish is that private welfare and public welfare differ. I gather that is why Digby is upset.

Apparently the government created a lifetime entitlement, not a temporary license.

From Digby's comment, the quota seems to live beyond death since the son can inherit from the father. It's perpetual and not just for a lifetime. But so what? People own houses that way.

TS, what you are suggesting is that the government auction off houses every year for a one year lease. (Sounds like fun!)

[The Terrible Sweal]

Too many taxis would create a loss of public welfare just like too much fishing.

Too many taxis would cause a loss of private welfare and a few would quit the business. Or do you suggest we create a licensing system for coffee shops? (Heck we may have done that.)

1) Unregulated taxis would swamp the streets. Also, conceivably, the barrier to entry disinsentivises poorer operators.

2) The public has an interest in the private welfare of its members.

From Digby's comment, the quota seems to live beyond death since the son can inherit from the father. It's perpetual and not just for a lifetime.  But so what?  People own houses that way.

Uno- the whole concept of inheritance is virtually indefensible from either a liberal or libertarian standpoint.

Dos- Houses are not fish and vice versa. Houses are artefacts, fish are an element of our natural world.

TS, what you are suggesting is that the government auction off houses every year for a one year lease. 

No, I'm suggesting that than the government should not arrogantly create a novel type of interest over a novel form of 'property' over which it's authority to do so is questionable and its obligations not to are arguable. I'm surprised you, August, in particular should be so keen to distort the market in this fashion.

A yearly auction is a better system because:

-it is structurally more liquid on the supply side, thus improving liquidity on the demand side as well;

-it avoids entrenching the starting-point advantages of some market participants (which tend to become inefficiencies over time);

-it retains the government's flexibility in performing its ongoing stewardship role while obtaining optimal returns on the license price for the public coffers.

[Digby]

Im not suggesting the goverment drop quotas and open all fisheries wide open.

I beleave in conservation as much as any man.

My point is the Goverment uses the word conservation to get away with every crooked deals it wants to push for .Alot of fishermen beleave the goverment is actually plotting to distroy our fish stocks instead of save them.Alot of fishermen beleave they want the fish gone so they can more easily get at suspected oil and natural gas reserves under prime fishing bottom .

I myself cannot come to beleave our goverment is that evil , but more like bueracrates with alot of power being persuaded by lobiest with alot of money.

I did have a fisheries beuracrate onetime admit he did not care about the distruction of our fish stocks . He said THEY will come back some day.

I'm not sure he is right areas i see cleaned out seem to never come back ,at least not in a life time or two. It seems we change the eviroment so it never comes back the same. Areas my Grandfather fished I beleave will never have fish on them again. Areas my Father fished are about finished too . Now days we just go farther in deeper in most cases .

Haddock actually seem to survive decent compared to cod .Haddock stocks actually seem to be in best shape in years in certain areas . Cod just been declining every where , the ITQ system actually is alot to blame as with the lies in the catch history records ,vessels have discarded cod like never before in history . Sometimes i actually think a wide open fishery might be healthier for the ocean ,as boats would get loaded and have to go in . where as now days they just keep fishing for fish that don't exist and throwing back the ones that do.

I could guess why cod fish don't seem to be able to survive like haddock .

(1) Cod are bigger ,even small ones can't get through cod ends .

(2) Cod eat different food ,mainly hering which are in trouble ,and shrimp which are heavily fished . I suspect with a shortage of food Cod turn to other sources of food . The ocean is full of hag fish ,if a cod eats one he is dead in one hour . With a shortage of hering and shrimp i think cod turn to hagfish for food and this is poison .

[caesar]

From Digby's comment, the quota seems to live beyond death since the son can inherit from the father. It's perpetual and not just for a lifetime.  But so what?  People own houses that way.

Quotas have aq cash value; they can be sold or given to whomever. It is the same with milk.

It is a method of conservation; how else would they see that everyone with a boat a gear would be allowed his fair share, That too many fishermen are not out there. The the fish caught are being recorded. The fish belong to all of us; paying something to the government is very acceptable and necessary to control our fish stocks for future generations.

[caesar]

earlier, someone wanted more information on milk quotas and the reasons for them. This article , also, covers the reasons behind fishing quotas.

You should read this article Digby; perhaps then you would understand that it works for the fishermen , too. Conserving stocks by attempting to control the total catch plus, it helps to ensure that each fisherman licensed with a quota gets his share and keeps the prices at a reasonable level.

[Digby]

Your not listening to me .

I am not against Quotas ,A good fair quota that worked id be more then happy with.

Conservation is not the reason for ITQ quotas its just what goverment sells it with . Its to make certain friends of goverment very rich men. The ITQ quota system is actually very harmfull on fish stocks . Millions of lbs of cod have been dumped back dead in this system.

You can't get the truth out as a hand full of very powerful men are making so much money they hire people to tell it the way they want it told.

DFO breaks their own policies often , they have a law that no indivdual can own over 2% of the TAC but they knowenly allow some to own 20% or more .Its done through trust agreements in offices .

The big problem with ITQ quotas is its all based on lies in logbooks .

Ownership is mostly given to non fishermen . Fishbuyers in most cases . Seems while the fishermen where busy fishing the buyers where busy plotting and doing crooked deals with goverment.

It don't seem fair too me that 2 years of distorted lied about history should give people ownership of Canadas fish for eternity . These people don't have to invest any money just set back and rack in incredable profits off a piece of paper that goverment friends made up for them.

Its not right that laudered money was in the system .

Its not right that some knew the future (goverment helped some know ) so they prepared and plotted eternal ownership . It was worce then insider tradeing on stock markets .

There is better ways . The americans have fishing days , only aloud so many days a year .plus trip quotas.

When the ITQ system came in ,the american ocean was in hard shape ,and the Canadian side was full of fish . Now the american ocean is probly healtier then the canadian side . The Canadian side has lost ground big time .

Some of these people that own these fish never had any Catch records at all it was complete gifts from goverment . It was way better off then giving someone 1,000,000 dollars . As it was big money for eternity or till fish stocks are completely gone.

Alot of users now are mad at goverment power being used to make a few rich men own the whole ocean. So they have an attitude of lets just steal the fish . Most in the community agree that the fish should be stolen as nobody beleaves DFO has any conservation on their mind .

Nobody minds conserving for the next generation accept DFO in most peoples eyes. So they might as well get their share too before its all gone.

DFO seems only intrested in driveing small fishermen out so 10-20 men can own it all .Conservation is not DFOs agenda , its creating a monopoly for a few rich friends . What they get in Return can only be speculated on. I do know that one of the main guys that decided who owned what now has a high dollar do nothing type job from some of the ones he helped the most.

[caesar]

No Digby, I am not buying your whining. Quotas are the fairest way to distribute fishing rights. That way it controls the number of fishing boats; the fishermen know how much of a catch they are allowed; it limits the catches from those bigger and faster. Fishermen who sold off their quotas for booze or the rampant drugs ; you yourself claim they consume; have no one to blame but themselves. If you fish illegally and take fish without quotas; you are stealing from the citizens of Canada and future generations of fishermen.

[The Terrible Sweal]

But... but ... but... Digby says he's not against quotas, only badly implemented quotas.

[Tawasakm]

No Digby, I am not buying your whining.

I realise this may be a little off topic, caesar, but on how many occasions over the last few weeks have you characterised posters opinions as 'whining'?

In addition to which it appears from Digby's arguments that he does support the idea of quotas. It would seem the issue of contention is the implementation and organisation of the quotas.

[Tawasakm]

Sorry TTS I somehow missed your post. Didn't mean to duplicate your point.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Sorry TTS I somehow missed your post. Didn't mean to duplicate your point.

No prob.

[Digby]

Ceasar , the people of canada no longer own the fish , even fishermen that have fished them for generations don't own the fish. ( go try to catch one without paying the rich friends of goverment first)

Thats my arguement against ITQs the resources of the country are now mostly owned for eternity by a handfull of questionable business men.

the word conservation was used to give beuracrates power . they used the power for corruption , conservation is not really their motives.

Why don't the Goverment just give Canadas roads too 10-20 rich men and they can make ceasar pay 5.00 a mile every time he wants to use them.

You know here in Digby they even gave our warfe away to some friends of goverment ,pluss 3,000,000 to fix the warfe up with. The 3,000 ,000 got stolen not one repair to the warfe its now falling down. warfage tripled. The people they gave the warfe too now are telling the fishermen they got to buy the warfe from them for 6,000,000 dollars or else they will sell our warfe to the chinese . So some friends of goverment will make about 10,000 ,000 dollars of our warfe.

You one of them friends of goverment ceasar? You in the in crowd?

[Digby]

Just put Digby Wharf into a search engine in case you think im making up the story about our wharf . It gets worse the more you study it.

Thats what they should do to the road in front of ceasars house , give it away to some friends ,pluss maybe throw in a few million for repairs (that just gets stolen)

Then make ceasar pay and pay for eternity for the use of the road his tax dollars helped to build.

Things are not bad enough for fishermen to have to buy the fish we catch before we catch them, now we even have to buy our warfe that our tax dollars paid for from goverments friends