Canada's population growth, good or bad?

bush_cheney2004 · October 29, 2018

1 hour ago, taxme said:

That begs the question to be asked is why is this so? That is something close to 3.7 million so called Canadians that are living elsewhere and working there and not paying any taxes here.

There are several reasons, but even within Canada there are provinces that struggle to maintain population density because of flight to other parts of Canada, mostly because of less economic opportunity (jobs). But no matter the reason, Canada bleeds population because of net migration....cramming more and more immigrants into the front door just means that even more will try to leave out the back door as soon as they can.

Zeitgeist · October 29, 2018

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

There are several reasons, but even within Canada there are provinces that struggle to maintain population density because of flight to other parts of Canada, mostly because of less economic opportunity (jobs). But no matter the reason, Canada bleeds population because of net migration....cramming more and more immigrants into the front door just means that even more will try to leave out the back door as soon as they can.

Canada is consistently rated one of the best countries in the world in which to live, usually higher than the U.S. Our challenge isn't keeping people here; it's letting the right people in. We don't have the density of places like New York City. We do need to find ways of pushing settlement northwards to develop the far north and make it more self-sustaining. It likely won't happen with Canadian born nationals. Probably best to do it through immigration, as least as one category of immigration.

bush_cheney2004 · October 29, 2018

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is consistently rated one of the best countries in the world in which to live, usually higher than the U.S. Our challenge isn't keeping people here; it's letting the right people in. We don't have the density of places like New York City. We do need to find ways of pushing settlement northwards to develop the far north and make it more self-sustaining. It likely won't happen with Canadian born nationals. Probably best to do it through immigration, as least as one category of immigration.

So what ? Canada has much higher net migration losses than the United States, which has a much higher population with far more immigrants...more than the entire population of Canada. People voting with their feet....not poll rankings.

Edited October 29, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

Zeitgeist · October 29, 2018

2 hours ago, taxme said:

That begs the question to be asked is why is this so? That is something close to 3.7 million so called Canadians that are living elsewhere and working there and not paying any taxes here. I have read that there are many new immigrants that are still citizen's from wherever they came from and that many return to their home country to run a business and will only come back to Canada if they need too for whatever reason. Two reasons may be due to turmoil in some country or the need for our medical services which they cannot get back home.

There is definitely something sick and not so right about this country called Canada. I can only blame our dear leaders for the mess that Canada is in today. Canada has become one big time joke and sucker nation. Bloody sad indeed.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Nevertheless, Canadians are very proud as a whole of their country and Canada is seen internationally as a good place to live on the whole. Country rankings, for whatever they're worth, express this as well. I realize these change year to year and rankings can vary depending on criteria, but I've seen enough of these over the years to be confident in the conclusion that we seem to have struck a healthy balance relative to other countries.

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bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I'm sorry you feel that way. Nevertheless, Canadians are very proud as a whole of their country and Canada is seen internationally as a good place to live on the whole. Country rankings, for whatever they're worth, express this as well. I realize these change year to year and rankings can vary depending on criteria, but I've seen enough of these over the years to be confident in the conclusion that we seem to have struck a healthy balance relative to other countries.

"On the whole" isn't good enough when the bills come due....Canada has a much higher percentage of citizens living in other nations, regardless of whatever feel good polls you wish to point at. Canada's population density remains very low, with huddled masses close to its southern border. More immigrants have chosen the United States over Canada, and always have. for reasons that are still true today.

Good luck with that population thing....not as big a problem "south of the border" .

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

"On the whole" isn't good enough when the bills come due....Canada has a much higher percentage of citizens living in other nations, regardless of whatever feel good polls you wish to point at. Canada's population density remains very low, with huddled masses close to its southern border. More immigrants have chosen the United States over Canada, and always have. for reasons that are still true today.

Good luck with that population thing....not as big a problem "south of the border" .

You’re cute, trying to convince Canadians that somehow we are inferior, less sophisticated, or worse off than Americans. It’s a kind of zero-sum mentality wherein one seeks affirmation through a kind of lording over. You should read Hegel on master-slave relationships. I think a country’s aim should be to seek best practices, wherever they come from. Also, success can be measured in different ways. While we value some of the same things, it’s clear that in some areas we have different ideas of what makes a good society.

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re cute, trying to convince Canadians that somehow we are inferior, less sophisticated, or worse off than Americans. It’s a kind of zero-sum mentality wherein one seeks affirmation through a kind of lording over. You should read Hegel on master-slave relationships. I think a country’s aim should be to seek best practices, wherever they come from. Also, success can be measured in different ways. While we value some of the same things, it’s clear that in some areas we have different ideas of what makes a good society.

No, such nonsense is unnecessary when emigration and immigration facts are so readily available.

I don't need to convince anybody of this reality, even as you want to convince emigres and Canadians to "go north" and earn their keep, the exact opposite of what Canadians and immigrants actually do.

If population growth be the topic, obviously the United States has enjoyed more success than #X ranked, far, far superior Canada.

Edited October 30, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, such nonsense is unnecessary when emigration and immigration facts are so readily available.

I don't need to convince anybody of this reality, even as you want to convince emigres and Canadians to "go north" and earn their keep, the exact opposite of what Canadians and immigrants actually do.

If population growth be the topic, obviously the United States has enjoyed more success than #X ranked, far, far superior Canada.

Canada is a small country. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. Canada doesn’t aspire to be the US because the situation is completely different. We have different challenges from the US. There are good points and bad about living in each country. We see your problems. I’d like to think you understand ours, but you keep applying your context to ours. They are similar contexts but not the same. Canadians travel and live in different countries. That doesn’t mean much. As a smaller country, we have to be more aware of the world around us and be more engaged with it. That might change as we grow, but we may retain a more outward focus. As you can tell from the commentary on here regarding immigration, many Canadians want the country to remain small. I think there’s a middle ground. We do need a larger population than we currently have to tap the country’s vast resources, but only if the population is better distributed.

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is a small country. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges.

Make up your mind...it is a large country or is it a small country ?

Quote

Canada doesn’t aspire to be the US because the situation is completely different. We have different challenges from the US. There are good points and bad about living in each country. We see your problems. I’d like to think you understand ours, but you keep applying your context to ours. They are similar contexts but not the same.

Canadians often apply their context(s) to the United States as well....often defining the Canadian identity as not American. Population size and emigration are easily measured, bringing such contexts into practical historical and present day realities.

Quote

Canadians travel and live in different countries. That doesn’t mean much. As a smaller country, we have to be more aware of the world around us and be more engaged with it. That might change as we grow, but we may retain a more outward focus. As you can tell from the commentary on here regarding immigration, many Canadians want the country to remain small. I think there’s a middle ground. We do need a larger population than we currently have to tap the country’s vast resources, but only if the population is better distributed.

Canada's present prime minister defines Canada as the first "post national" state. Regionalism and separatism is still fueled by different economic and cultural/language conflict. Adding more immigrants to the mix only complicates and exacerbates the issues unless a viable path forward exists, and for now that has included escape to other nations for better opportunities when fewer can be found in Canada.

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Make up your mind...it is a large country or is it a small country ?

Canadians often apply their context(s) to the United States as well....often defining the Canadian identity as not American. Population size and emigration are easily measured, bringing such contexts into practical historical and present day realities.

Canada's present prime minister defines Canada as the first "post national" state. Regionalism and separatism is still fueled by different economic and cultural/language conflict. Adding more immigrants to the mix only complicates and exacerbates the issues unless a viable path forward exists, and for now that has included escape to other nations for better opportunities when fewer can be found in Canada.

I don’t know where your position comes from. Our economy is strong. Unlike the US, we have very strong national unity right now. I will say that it’s time to dig our heels in more on Canadian values. It was troubling to see attempts to set up Sharia Law in Ontario several years ago. There have also been attacks on bilingualism and constitutional protections on freedom of speech, religion, our education systems, and the right to follow one’s conscience around matters of conscience such as euthanasia and abortion. The Trumps of the world rose in part because the demands of some on the left were too destabilizing and perhaps downright unhealthy/bad.

With regard to Canada’s size. It’s small relative to the US and many Canadians want to keep it that way. I think growth is inevitable. If done in the right way, some growth is advisable.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Zeitgeist

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t know where your position comes from. Our economy is strong. Unlike the US, we have very strong national unity right now. I will say that it’s time to dig our heels in more on Canadian values. It was troubling to see attempts to set up Sharia Law in Ontario several years ago. There have also been attacks on bilingualism and constitutional protections on freedom of speech, religion, our education systems, and the right to follow one’s conscience around matters of conscience such as euthanasia and abortion. The Trumps of the world rose in part because the demands of some on the left were too destabilizing and perhaps downright unhealthy/bad.

....and yet your present leadership insists on increasing immigration levels for people who may or may not share such views. Population growth at any cost can be quite expensive, economically and culturally. Europe found this out the hard way.

My position comes from Canadian news media, which reports continuing domestic conflict (e.g. pipelines), economic challenges for dying provinces, USMCA trade dependency wake-up call, "irregular" border crossings, Liberal party losses in Ontario, and pushback over increased legal immigration levels.

cannuck · October 30, 2018

8 hours ago, taxme said:

The City of Vancouver is already 45% non-Western looking. No more new immigrants needed or required anymore at this time, thank you very much.

Then send them all to Hogtown and keep them the frick out of Canada. Failing that, Northern reserves are where they belong.

The Liberal rush to import hundreds of thousands of completely unsuitable potential voters is going to destroy the freedoms and values of this country as we know it.

We have no shortage of labour, we have a shortage of people capable of and desiring to actually work. THOSE are what we need to have as immigrants - not what we are getting.

Edited October 30, 2018 by cannuck

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

....and yet your present leadership insists on increasing immigration levels for people who may or may not share such views. Population growth at any cost can be quite expensive, economically and culturally. Europe found this out the hard way.

My position comes from Canadian news media, which reports continuing domestic conflict (e.g. pipelines), economic challenges for dying provinces, USMCA trade dependency wake-up call, "irregular" border crossings, Liberal party losses in Ontario, and pushback over increased legal immigration levels.

I agree with your first point on immigration. On the second point, it's interesting how these items are discussed. Apart from the aboriginal communities in remote areas, regional economic disparity between the provinces is down from what it used to be, mainly because the prairies saw massive growth in agri-tech such as the production of potash and big money crops. Hibernia and other energy projects boosted Newfoundland's fortunes, though that has tapered somewhat. PEI has always done well with its agriculture and tourism. Nova Scotia has done fine, especially around Halifax, though conditions are mixed in both New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Quebec has done quite well over the last decade. Its decline came in the 80's and early 90's after the rise of separatism and the shift of head offices to Ontario. Ontario, but really the Toronto-Montreal corridor, is the industrial and financial base of the country. Out west it's resources. Alberta and B.C. have done very well for a long time, though their economies are more dependent on resource demand/prices, which are cyclical.

I agree that there are some troubling trends, such as the border crossings and the impact of our southern neighbour's more aggressive behavior as of late. We let ourselves become too reliant on trade with the U.S. for sure.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Zeitgeist

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

...I agree that there are some troubling trends, such as the border crossings and the impact of our southern neighbour's more aggressive behavior as of late. We let ourselves become too reliant on trade with the U.S. for sure.

Indeed, but that just continues the long history between the two nations. Canada still felt comfortable with the sometimes strained economic symbiosis to the south rather than none at all. Population dynamics is different....Canada cannot scale like the United States (and probably doesn't want to), but unlike in the United States where population growth is driven more by natural increases (births/deaths), Canada has recently relied more on immigration for the majority of growth (~60%).

Canada's present federal leadership is not only going all in on more globalism, but it is also relying on immigration (foreign nationals) to solve demographic challenges, while bleeding some population away (net migration). This happened severely in Canada during the Great Depression, but mostly Europeans/Americans were enlisted to fill the gaps after recovery.

Canada finds itself between the proverbial rock and a hard place, especially if those bastard Americans thicken the border.

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Indeed, but that just continues the long history between the two nations. Canada still felt comfortable with the sometimes strained economic symbiosis to the south rather than none at all. Population dynamics is different....Canada cannot scale like the United States (and probably doesn't want to), but unlike in the United States where population growth is driven more by natural increases (births/deaths), Canada has recently relied more on immigration for the majority of growth (~60%).

Canada's present federal leadership is not only going all in on more globalism, but it is also relying on immigration (foreign nationals) to solve demographic challenges, while bleeding some population away (net migration). This happened severely in Canada during the Great Depression, but mostly Europeans/Americans were enlisted to fill the gaps after recovery.

Canada finds itself between the proverbial rock and a hard place, especially if those bastard Americans thicken the border.

C'mon, I don't know Canadians who refer to Americans that way. Certain Americans sure, as I'm sure many Americans have disparaged Trudeau and certain other Canucks. Canada's birth rate, like America's, is low. Couples are having 1.6 kids, not enough to replace themselves. Americans are in the same boat, only slightly higher at 1.8 kids. Also interesting that Muslim and indigenous birth rates are higher than the general population: 2.4 kids for Muslims and four times higher than general population for indigenous. This is one reason why there is fear among the traditional power base of the country. I don't worry about the prospect of sharing power as long as Canadian values and the economic interests of the country aren't compromised, and this is a real concern. Thankfully Sharia Law wasn't implemented in Ontario, but no doubt there are more battles ahead. Canada must proceed carefully with immigration to ensure that it meets both the country's economic needs and constitutional standards. We're fools if we think that isn't a real concern. And for those who think the solution is some sort of humanist-atheist push to ban religious symbols, dress, or even practices, I can promise you that if such policies were ever implemented (our constitution wouldn't allow it anyway), it's likely that Muslims would not drop religious practices. Suppressing such practices would likely have a counter result.

I don't have a problem with different religions and atheism co-existing. I consider myself a Christian. I think we have to be wary of the left's push to further secularize the country, since when the notion of "the sacred" as something beyond the state is censored or banned, we run the risk of deifying the government and creating more Kim Jun Un's or Stalins, a very real threat these days. On the other extreme, we don't want to empower one religious group beyond the cultural protections that already exist in our constitution, as doing so would lead to Ayatola-type leaders and theocracies. We have a separation of church and state, but I wouldn't go further with disempowering our cultural and religious traditions, as doing so would only empower belief systems that can run counter to Canada's constitution and values. Canada was born out of British parliamentary tradition, Code Civil from France, English and French cultures and languages, indigenous traditions, and Judeo-Christian mores.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Zeitgeist

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

C'mon, I don't know Canadians who refer to Americans that way. Certain Americans sure, as I'm sure many Americans have disparaged Trudeau and certain other Canucks. Canada's birth rate, like America's, is low. Couples are having 1.6 kids, not enough to replace themselves. Americans are in the same boat, only slightly higher at 1.8 kids.

Not quite the same....Canada is relying far more on immigration to sustain population growth and percentage of total population...the United States has more natural births growth and a much larger population base to grow from. It would take far more immigrants to impact the U.S. than in smaller population, "multicultural" Canada.

Zeitgeist · October 30, 2018

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Not quite the same....Canada is relying far more on immigration to sustain population growth and percentage of total population...the United States has more natural births growth and a much larger population base to grow from. It would take far more immigrants to impact the U.S. than in smaller population, "multicultural" Canada.

You seize on a .2 birth rate difference? Generally a low birth rate is an indicator of highly developed economies, so maybe we have you beat?

bush_cheney2004 · October 30, 2018

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You seize on a .2 birth rate difference? Generally a low birth rate is an indicator of highly developed economies, so maybe we have you beat?

No, the real difference is far more population growth from immigration in Canada vs. natural births.

Zeitgeist · October 31, 2018

5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, the real difference is far more population growth from immigration in Canada vs. natural births.

You’re missing the point. Developed economies have smaller families.

taxme · October 31, 2018

On 10/29/2018 at 5:12 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

"On the whole" isn't good enough when the bills come due....Canada has a much higher percentage of citizens living in other nations, regardless of whatever feel good polls you wish to point at. Canada's population density remains very low, with huddled masses close to its southern border. More immigrants have chosen the United States over Canada, and always have. for reasons that are still true today.

Good luck with that population thing....not as big a problem "south of the border" .

The problem with south of the border is that you do have a big illegal alien problem in America today. Roughly I am told runs around 12 million illegal aliens living in America if not more. Good luck with that illegal alien population south of the border. But the way things look in Canada today, it would appear as though our dear leaders are trying to do some catch up by allowing so many illegal aliens to enter Canada illegally. I cannot even find out from our open and transparent liberal government as to how many are caught and how many are illegally here in Canada and how many were sent packing. I just thank gawd that Canada is not on the border of Mexico and America is. Canadians would not be able to do anything about the caravan of thousands because there would not be enough military to stop them. With 12 million illegal alien Latinos or more in Canada Spanish would probably be the official language of Canada today. Ola.

taxme · October 31, 2018

On 10/29/2018 at 8:27 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is a small country. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. Canada doesn’t aspire to be the US because the situation is completely different. We have different challenges from the US. There are good points and bad about living in each country. We see your problems. I’d like to think you understand ours, but you keep applying your context to ours. They are similar contexts but not the same. Canadians travel and live in different countries. That doesn’t mean much. As a smaller country, we have to be more aware of the world around us and be more engaged with it. That might change as we grow, but we may retain a more outward focus. As you can tell from the commentary on here regarding immigration, many Canadians want the country to remain small. I think there’s a middle ground. We do need a larger population than we currently have to tap the country’s vast resources, but only if the population is better distributed.

Maybe Canadians want to keep the country small but our dear leaders do not see it that way. On the contrary in two years we have seen our population grow by two million. So much for trying to remain low.Talk about open borders. But then again, we know that politicians will never listen to we the people. After all, they are the boss, not you or me. So, if they are the boss then why aren't they paying me a salary for being their slaves? Just wondering.

taxme · October 31, 2018

On 10/29/2018 at 10:29 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Indeed, but that just continues the long history between the two nations. Canada still felt comfortable with the sometimes strained economic symbiosis to the south rather than none at all. Population dynamics is different....Canada cannot scale like the United States (and probably doesn't want to), but unlike in the United States where population growth is driven more by natural increases (births/deaths), Canada has recently relied more on immigration for the majority of growth (~60%).

Canada's present federal leadership is not only going all in on more globalism, but it is also relying on immigration (foreign nationals) to solve demographic challenges, while bleeding some population away (net migration). This happened severely in Canada during the Great Depression, but mostly Europeans/Americans were enlisted to fill the gaps after recovery.

Canada finds itself between the proverbial rock and a hard place, especially if those bastard Americans thicken the border.

Nationalism is what we need to see and hear more from our dear leaders, not globalism. Globalism is great for corporations, not people. If we had politicians that were more nationalist and less globalist and less pro third world we could create millions of new jobs in Canada which should allow our own people to have more children and be less dependent on all this massive immigration. Just saying.

taxme · October 31, 2018

On 10/29/2018 at 9:44 PM, cannuck said:

Then send them all to Hogtown and keep them the frick out of Canada. Failing that, Northern reserves are where they belong.

The Liberal rush to import hundreds of thousands of completely unsuitable potential voters is going to destroy the freedoms and values of this country as we know it.

We have no shortage of labour, we have a shortage of people capable of and desiring to actually work. THOSE are what we need to have as immigrants - not what we are getting.

Where is Hogtown? Just asking.

The liberal socialists do not care about Canada or it's heritage or traditions. They only care about votes and themselves and forcing political correctness on us all. Our freedoms and values mean nothing to them. At one time Christmas was celebrated in all schools at Christmas time. Now those days are gone. Apparently we were all told that some of those new immigrants found celebrating Christmas in schools was supposed to be offensive to them. Goodbye Christmas. Canada is taking in hundreds of thousands of incompatible cultures that are starting to conflict with our own culture. But ask the liberals if they give a crapola.

With two million unemployed Canadians surely there cannot be any shortage of labour in Canada. Are all of those two million unable to work because they just do not want to work? I doubt that very much. There is no doubt in my mind that all of this massive immigration is contributing to having two million unemployed people in Canada. Stop all immigration and unemployment should go down. It has too.

taxme · October 31, 2018

22 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No, the real difference is far more population growth from immigration in Canada vs. natural births.

There is no shortage of people in Canada. There are hundreds of thousands of newborns that are easily replacing the older retired workers and the people who die. I say this because at one time I read from a retired immigration minister many decades ago who said that the birth and death rates in Canada roughly equal each other out. It's all just a farce. My words.

Besides why do we keep bringing in so many new immigrants by the hundreds of thousands every year anyway? No one appears to be able to answer this question. Common sense and logic tells me that the more immigrants we keep bringing in the more schools, more hospitals, more businesses, more roads and more infrastructure that will be needed. Massive immigration is a big farce but nobody is willing to admit this, especially any of our dear leaders. But on the contrary our dear leaders try to convince or brainwash us all into believing and telling we the people that Canada needs more immigrants to help keep things going. A pile of hogwash. What use to be a short drive to work for most people decades ago can now take hours and all thanks to massive immigration. The only people that do benefit from more immigrants are the banksters and the pro immigration special interest groups in Canada. There's money in them dar hills, pardner, from more immigration.