Anti-Americanism

[I miss Reagan]

IMR, I am not sure what you are talking about, either, but, don't so blithely toss around statements about others hating anyone. I say that, since it is now apparent that you were not being "humorous" but meant your mean spirited jibes.

Did you not post this with respect to Americans:

"Personally, I hate them all...

I can't wait to see Los Angeles slide into the ocean when the big one comes: or New York to be drowned when the icecaps melt completely. "

If I have the wrong impression of your views of Americans please explain your comments.

[August1991]

If so, what of prominent American "anti-Americans" such as Chomsky or Zinn? Are they "self-haters"?

Ray Cohn is only one of a long line of gay homophobes. And Chomsky is one of many Leftist self-haters.

Intolerance frequently starts by casting different people into a "mass". "Those damn Americans", "what do those queers want now?"

My real peeve though is the readiness to classify a person according to prejudice. It shows a lack of critical thinking, an absence of the scientific method.

"Bush lied, kids died."

[Black Dog]

Ray Cohn is only one of a long line of gay homophobes. And Chomsky is one of many Leftist self-haters.

Intolerance frequently starts by casting different people into a "mass". "Those damn Americans", "what do those queers want now?"

For someone bemoaning a "lack of critical thinking, an absence of the scientific method", you're sure sloppy. For starters, you seem to accept some self-evident definition for anti-Americanism. No such thing exists.

You fail to address the issue of how words are defined by popular usage (note the two examples I cited earlier) . Anti-Americanism is used so frequently and in so many contexts that it's impossible to establish a proper definition. You choose to circumvent that by using the simplest definition: hatred of Americans based on geography and nationality. Which means there are a lot of self-haters out there (and what a comically absurd concept that is). The reality is much different. One can live according to Twain's principle "Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it." and yet, by your apparent definition, be considered anti-American.

The distinction between dislike of a government or culture (for example) and dislike of the people is a necessary one, but it's a distinction you fail to make

[Grantler]

Just in addition to this thread I was recently talking to some university friends who were discussing not allowing Americans, even if they were in dire need in the future, to have any fresh water out of Canada because Bush is an idiot.

These are well educated university students.

People do not realize that in 3.5 years there will be a new president everyone will love and Americans won't be so bad after all and Bush will fade to be judged by history.

This type of attitude from Canadians who judge Americans by their president is rediculous. Imagine what the general publics sentiment is if educated people have such misjudged beliefs.

[Shakeyhands]

Again, I think its been made pretty clear here that its not an problem with the American people but moreso a problem with the current administration ( and I suppose the zealous farrightwing Republicans)

[Black Dog]

People do not realize that in 3.5 years there will be a new president everyone will love and Americans won't be so bad after all and Bush will fade to be judged by history.

Frankly, Bush isn't the problem, but the tip of the iceberg. We're not dealing with one individual that people happen to disilike, but a movement . People might not understand that and choose to lash out at the figurehead or Americans as a whole, but I think it's this sense of unease with the direction America appears to be heading in that drives the kind of sentiment you describe.

This type of attitude from Canadians who judge Americans by their president is rediculous. Imagine what the general publics sentiment is if educated people have such misjudged beliefs

Well, I think it's a mistake to equate university attendance with critical thinking capacity or indeed an intelligent mind.

[Grantler]

LOL that second part is a good point.

I agree...many of the people that are in university are just there to make rich daddy happy.

And, I think that if a Clinton type president is elected, Canada would move away from the 'hate'.

[ticker]

Basically the term anti-Americanism (as it's been used so far in this discussion) is a catch-all for right-wingers who want to slur an opponent.

And didn't the liberals during the election say you were anti canadain if you voted right. I don't remember the conservatives trying to slur themselves by calling themselves anti canadian.

It is more like a catch-all for left-wingers who want to slur an opponent

[ticker]

Frankly, Bush isn't the problem, but the tip of the iceberg.

The same could be said of Trudeau and his policies like the NEP.

At least the US as fixed election dates and a limit of 8 years. If it wasn't for his age Trudeau would still be PM ... even though he wasn't liked in those little unimportant provinces

[Black Dog]

d, I think that if a Clinton type president is elected, Canada would move away from the 'hate'.

Depends. I've no doubt Bush's personal style and rhetoric grates on a lot of nerves (and it ain't just Canada either), but I'd like to think someone came to power as a Democrat or moderate Republican (not that they're not essentially the same thing), but continued Bush like policies of militarism and aggression abroad and gutting social programs at home, Canadians would be just as antipathic.

And didn't the liberals during the election say you were anti canadain if you voted right. I don't remember the conservatives trying to slur themselves by calling themselves anti canadian.

Ah see, here we have a common mistake that Canadian conservatives make of confusing big-L Liberals with real progressives and social democrats. The Liberals may deploy rhetoric that appeals to (small-l) liberal/progressive values, but they always govern from the right. The federal Liberals are completely unprincipled. their only interest is in retaining power. Whereas the federal Conservatives are completely unprincipled and interested only in gaining power.

But I digress.

It is more like a catch-all for left-wingers who want to slur an opponent

Anti-Americanism?

The same could be said of Trudeau and his policies like the NEP.

And this is relevant to the discussion of anti-Americanism...how?

[Guest eureka]

IMR, that is one selected sentence and you know it. Dumb you may be, but you are not stupid. And, I do not explain to those who will not see.

Black Dog, the scary part is that this is all about the direction America is moving. A new President may not change what is becoming a political culture very much.

At this time, I feel as sorry for those Americans who oppose the direction but share the blame internatinally as I do for the Iraquis.

[Argus]

Just in addition to this thread I was recently talking to some university friends who were discussing not allowing Americans, even if they were in dire need in the future, to have any fresh water out of Canada because Bush is an idiot. 

These are well educated university students.

Define the term "well educated".

Most university students are anything but. Judgement comes with experience, and most students haven't got much. Today's education tends towards skills training more than anything substantive in the way of logic or reasoning. So you have even fourth or sixth year students who can tell you all about computers, or regurgitate various soft science theories of pop psychology and politics. But most have very little real world knowledge of socioeconomics and world politics and how they actually function. Most have never known hardship or violence or loss. Most don't even read newspapers, and have never bothered to vote. Their belief in what should or should not be done in world economic/military terms is the judgement of naive, ignorant, and pampered children.

The Americans are bad because they are militaristic, and the pampered, sheltered youth believe military things are =bad=. They don't know why, exactly, they just know. Also, the Americans are capitalists, and that is =bad= because, well, poor people aren't protected <sob>. Also, the Americans like guns, and guns are =bad=. Just because.

The Americans are too religious. They believe in God and family morality while we only care about not offending anyone. The Americans are cowboys <sneer-sneer>, and that means they're not as sophisticated as we are. We ride the bus to work, after all, and wait in polite lines. The Americans are brash, while we are meek. The Americans are proud and arrogant about their history and accomplishments and wealth and power. We are proud and arrogant because uhm, we're tolerant (sort of) and multi cultural, and we let homosexuals get married.

Worst of all, the Americans are wealthy, powerful world leaders in science, culture, business and politics. We are a third rate country with no power or influence wrapped in delusions about how wonderful we are, and our wealth is almost entirely dependent on supplying bits and pieces of work to their massive economy.

[Argus]

IMR, that is one selected sentence and you know it. Dumb you may be, but you are not stupid. And, I do not explain to those who will not see.

So if someone was to say "I hate those homos and can hardly wait until AIDS kills them all off" that wouldn't neccesarily mean they had anything against gays, right? I mean, it's just one sentence, right?

[BQSupporter]

Canada's reaction to the United States is like the reaction of a younger and much weaker sibling to a dominent and more powerful older siblings.

When they are young the emulate the older sibling and trying to copy the things they do.

But has they get older the resentment grows and the jealousy is more.

Its very basic Anti-Americanism is popular in Canada b/c we Canadian are resentful and jealous of the United States.

[BQSupporter]

Its also interesting to to note that Canadian Anti-Americans isn't even noticed in the United States, the past Canadian Federal Election got scant notice if any.

But in Canada the Presidential election was the top story for months and months. More people in Canada watch the Presidential debates then they did our own Leadership Debates during the Federal Election.

We in Canada are more interested in the Americans then they are in us Canadians and thats just drives many Canadians mad.

[Guest eureka]

You aren't going to disappoint me, Argus, are you. I would have thought you could do better than applaud selective editing.

[Argus]

You aren't going to disappoint me, Argus, are you. I would have thought you could do better than applaud selective editing.

It was a damning statement. If it was selective editing then feel free to post the rest. Or a link to it, or an explanation. Then I will join you in criticising the person who posted it.

[caesar]

We in Canada are more interested in the Americans then they are in us Canadians and thats just drives many Canadians mad.

We watched the election because of fear. The Bush administration with its aggressive acts is endangering peace in the world. We don't have the same problem here in Canada; just concerned that if Harper were elected we would be following the American lead and kissing bush butt.

Jealous of the USA; not a chance. I much prefer our more civil and fair government and our freedoms; those same freedoms that are disappearing in the USA, I don't have to sleep with a gun under my pillow.

[Guest eureka]

Argus, I am not going to do that. It is too damn childish and if the children want to play, then let them.

[Newfie Canadian]

But in Canada the Presidential election was the top story for months and months.

The same phenom afflicted other areas of the world as well, as evidenced by the BBC for example. There was just as much on the BBC World News as there was on Canada Now.

[August1991]

First, welcome back Argus. I have missed your ideas and your clear-cut style.

Canada's reaction to the United States is like the reaction of a younger and much weaker sibling to a dominent and more powerful older siblings.

I really dislike an analogy that reduces a society of 300 million people to a "powerful, older sibling".

We in Canada are more interested in the Americans then they are in us Canadians... 

Sort of true. Many Americans aren't terribly interested in America either.

Today's education tends towards skills training more than anything substantive in the way of logic or reasoning. So you have even fourth or sixth year students who can tell you all about computers, or regurgitate various soft science theories of pop psychology and politics. But most have very little real world knowledge of socioeconomics and world politics and how they actually function. Most have never known hardship or violence or loss.

The voice of the old and wise speaks to the young and ignorant.

Argus, I suspect you suffered less hardship than your grandparents and they suffered less than their grandparents. Hardship is better avoided. Somerset Maugham noted accurately that poverty does not build character; it makes people mean and ungenerous.

Moreover (subject of another thread), I happen to believe that young people in Canada are among the best educated in the world and in history. Never before or elsewhere do teachers put so much emphasis on critical thinking. But kids are natural idealists.

Anti-Americanism is used so frequently and in so many contexts that it's impossible to establish a proper definition.

I'll take the basic meaning of "dislike of Americans".

You can dress this up as you want: ("I have many American friends but I must say that those Americans..." or "I don't really dislike Americians. It's Bush I don't like..."), but you'll sound curiously like the guy who says ("I'm opened minded but really now, do you want gay men teaching our kids?" or "Let's face it now. What names do you see connected to Hollywood movies and the big banks...").

I sense that to many English Canadians, being American is not cool. It's not sexy. In simple terms, shown a photo of a possible suitor, many would be disheartened to learn that she or he was from Cleveland and not Poitiers. Such a reaction is typical of the Left.

The question is why that is the case.

[Black Dog]

Most university students are anything but. Judgement comes with experience, and most students haven't got much. Today's education tends towards skills training more than anything substantive in the way of logic or reasoning. So you have even fourth or sixth year students who can tell you all about computers, or regurgitate various soft science theories of pop psychology and politics. But most have very little real world knowledge of socioeconomics and world politics and how they actually function. Most have never known hardship or violence or loss. Most don't even read newspapers, and have never bothered to vote. Their belief in what should or should not be done in world economic/military terms is the judgement of naive, ignorant, and pampered children and what's up with their baggy trousers and loud punk rock music blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Nothing like using a sweeping generalization to cast aspirsions on those who make sweeping generalizations.

Its very basic Anti-Americanism is popular in Canada b/c we Canadian are resentful and jealous of the United States.

Ooooh. What an original theory! You forgot to tack on soemthing about Canadians being "irrelevant". See Argus' post for tips on how to create a strawman for anti-Americanism.

I'll take the basic meaning of "dislike of Americans".

You can dress this up as you want: ("I have many American friends but I must say that those Americans..." or "I don't really dislike Americians. It's Bush I don't like..."), but you'll sound curiously like the guy who says ("I'm opened minded but really now, do you want gay men teaching our kids?" or "Let's face it now. What names do you see connected to Hollywood movies and the big banks...").

That's a fair interpretation. There's a lot of anti-Americanism that is simply unsophisticated and knee-jerk (f'r instance I've laways found Rick Mercer's wildly popular "Talking to Americans" to be lame for just that reason) but I don't think it's the rationale behind all anti-Americanism.

But getting back to semantics I find the usage of "Americanism", rather than "American" very interesting. To me, "Americanism" is a distinctive doctrine, like pacifism, Zionism or fascism.

[I miss Reagan]

You aren't going to disappoint me, Argus, are you. I would have thought you could do better than applaud selective editing.

It was a damning statement. If it was selective editing then feel free to post the rest. Or a link to it, or an explanation. Then I will join you in criticising the person who posted it.

Here is the entire post. Maybe I'm alone in how I interpreted it. If I am misinterpreting the post I apologize.

Grantier, there is a significanr difference in the "supports" for the military in the US. Support is not really for the troops on a personal level: it is support for the institution of the Presidency as C in C and the symbol of Americanism.

That is what can be hated about "Americanism." It is the sign of an immature and insecure nation. Unquestioning loyalty; "my country right or wrong, but my country." Most modern nations have gone a little beyond that. We all may support our country, but we question the actions of our leaders. That is what I think Black Dog is saying.

It is also why you should not listen to IMR who still does not understand the "Parrish" thing. Parrish does not hate Americans: like the rest of us, she was talking of what America is doing and the government that is doing it to Americans as well as to outsiders.

Personally, I hate them all: even my daughter-in-law who hates Bush and all my son's friends and new relatives who also hate Bush.

I can't wait to see Los Angeles slide into the ocean when the big one comes: or New York to be drowned when the icecaps melt completely.

Selective editing Eureka?

[I miss Reagan]

Anti-Americanism is used so frequently and in so many contexts that it's impossible to establish a proper definition.

I'll take the basic meaning of "dislike of Americans".

August why play into his game of cavilling and deflecting the issue by quibling about definitions. We all know what it means to be anti-American.

Nothing like using a sweeping generalization to cast aspirsions on those who make sweeping generalizations. 

Ya you neeever do that

[Black Dog]

August why play into his game of cavilling and deflecting the issue by quibling about definitions. We all know what it means to be anti-American.

Because it's called "debate", sunshine. As much as it would tickle your fancy to have this board be a collection of bobble-heads nodding in agreement with every trite proclimation you or anyone else makes, the whole point is to exchange ideas. So don't project your failure to have any onto those of us that do.