Should we end Birthright Citizenship

[Shady]

On 9/1/2018 at 1:33 AM, eyeball said:

You're darn right they can buckle.  You haven't seen anything yet.

Wait until Canada is faced with climate change refugees.  It'll be like a Zombie Apocalypse compared to the irregular migration.  Did you ignore the warnings of commies globalization critics along with environmentalists other commies too by any chance?  Did you forget they also warned how our dash to the bottom would morph into angst over immigrants followed by the rise of populist reactionary sentiments?  We can't say we haven't seen anything yet when it comes to that can we?

Oh well, I guess we'll need a pretty harsh ethos so blowing climate refugee boats out of the water comes more naturally.

Nah.  i'm not really worried about climate change refugees.  It's never gonna happen.  In like 10 years the combustion engine will be a thing of the past anyways.  Regardless, we don't recognize climate change as refugee status material.  Probably because it would be almost impossible to prove.

[turningrite]

On 9/2/2018 at 8:52 PM, August1991 said:

We in the West are about 600 million. The world is about 7 billion. The US cannot offer Medicaid to everyone in the world. Quebec cannot give a carte soleil to everyone who is in Quebec. Our Western model/system does not work now at large.

I think evidence increasingly supports this contention. Modern welfare state societies were largely built on the "social contract" model whereby one's entitlements were mainly based on and sustained by contributions one made into the system during one's working years. More recent large-scale migration policies accompanied by fairly open access to public benefits, at least in Canada and parts of Western Europe, has undermined the sustainability of this model, transforming it into a subsidy class system of layered and often permanent entitlements enjoyed by those who've in many cases contributed little or nothing to the system. And the consequences for those who have paid taxes to support the system are increasingly dire. Here in Ontario, the health care system has become a disaster of almost epic proportions where access to care is rationed.

The Nobel-winning economist Milton Friedman noted that the social welfare state is incompatible with open immigration. At least in the U.S., where access to publicly funded benefits is constricted by eligibility criteria favoring legal status, length of residency and financial contributions, the most recent generation of immigrants are net contributors to the tax base. The situation in other Western jurisdictions, like Canada, which afford almost instant access to publicly funded benefits for newcomers, provides substantial proof of the validity of Friedman's assertion. 

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

Nah.  i'm not really worried about climate change refugees.  It's never gonna happen.  In like 10 years the combustion engine will be a thing of the past anyways. 

Maybe in a few wealthy countries but there'll be another 7 gazillion people's economies trying to catch up and using combustion engines to do so.  I doubt the incentive to sell and of course control the fossil fuel resources they'll need will go away. 

Quote

 

Regardless, we don't recognize climate change as refugee status material.  Probably because it would be almost impossible to prove.

 

Yeah, we'll probably just go back to mocking the whole notion as left-wing bullshit.

[August1991]

14 hours ago, turningrite said:

The Nobel-winning economist Milton Friedman noted that the social welfare state is incompatible with open immigration. At least in the U.S., where access to publicly funded benefits is constricted by eligibility criteria favoring legal status, length of residency and financial contributions....

Provide a cite/link. (Genuinely curious.)

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I still trust Voltaire. Maybe we can make this work. Maybe we can enlighten people - and teach them calculus.

Edited September 5, 2018 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

On 9/2/2018 at 8:52 PM, August1991 said:

 The US cannot offer Medicaid to everyone in the world. Quebec cannot give a carte soleil to everyone who is in Quebec. Our Western model/system does not work now at large.

True, but it could afford it if those people were productive.  I think that the average Canadian worker provides $100K of productivity, which is more than enough to cover healthcare and social insurance.  It's rather shocking that someone of your advanced age has a basic misunderstanding of the economics behind this.  Immigration isn't welfare - you know that right ?

[turningrite]

11 hours ago, August1991 said:

Provide a cite/link. (Genuinely curious.)

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I still trust Voltaire. Maybe we can make this work. Maybe we can enlighten people - and teach them calculus.

There are so many studies on the economic impact of immigration in the U.S. that it's difficult to point only to one. However, a prominent study that analyzed outcomes for immigrants who arrived in the U.S. after 1980 determined that the average adult immigrant paid $21K more in taxes over a 20 year period following their arrival than the value of public benefits they obtained over the same period. A Bloomberg article discussing the net fiscal impact of immigrants, which cites the study, notes that in comparison to countries with broader social welfare systems, the American experience has been generally positive, particularly where well-educated and/or highly skilled immigrants are concerned. Poorly-educated and/or low-skilled immigrants do exert taxation cost pressures but probably less so than in other countries precisely because of the more limited and restrictive nature of American public welfare benefits. As the article notes, "[in] countries with strong welfare states, immigrants can impose a large fiscal burden on the government." In contrast to the American situation, the most prominent Canadian study, done by the Fraser Institute, suggests that in Canada the annual net fiscal cost (taxes paid less cost of benefits received) associated with our immigration and refugee programs amounts to tens of billions of dollars each year. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burden

Edited September 5, 2018 by turningrite

[Argus]

6 hours ago, turningrite said:

There are so many studies on the economic impact of immigration in the U.S. that it's difficult to point only to one. However, a prominent study that analyzed outcomes for immigrants who arrived in the U.S. after 1980 determined that the average adult immigrant paid $21K more in taxes over a 20 year period following their arrival than the value of public benefits they obtained over the same period. A Bloomberg article discussing the net fiscal impact of immigrants, which cites the study, notes that in comparison to countries with broader social welfare systems, the American experience has been generally positive, particularly where well-educated and/or highly skilled immigrants are concerned.

It isn't just that their social welfare system is a little less generous than ours, their immigration system generally requires that an immigrant be sponsored by a company which wishes to hire him/her and can't find an adequate local substitute. Thus most immigrants arrive already in possession of a firm job offer. Canada, on the other hand, simply accepts immigrants based on their alleged education and job skills. Immigrants arrive and then have to look for work. Often they can't find it, or if they do, it's a lower caliber of work which pays less.

[August1991]

On 9/5/2018 at 2:42 PM, turningrite said:

... However, a prominent study that analyzed outcomes for immigrants who arrived in the U.S. after 1980 determined that the average adult immigrant paid $21K more in taxes over a 20 year period following their arrival than the value of public benefits they obtained over the same period.... 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burden

Turningrite, I have no argument with the idea that immigrants/refugees prior to 1950 or even prior to 2000 were probably of benefit to Canadian society.

It was difficult to get here; those that did were smart/managed the trip - such was our selection system. In Canada, BTW, we still select independent immigrants by points/their skill. (Trump wants to adopt a similar Canadian system in the US but he is vilified as a racist.)

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Nowadays, travel is cheap. I object to giving citizenship to anyone who can manage to put a foot in Canada.

Justin Trudeau recently apologized for a 1939 boat.

Who is living in the past?